EPT[GSL] Code S r8 Day 1 - Page 90
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zeru
8156 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
I strongly dislike that losira opted to go a lot of banelings against a marine rush because when they're pressuring you that hard on 4 reactors with good splits it's hard to keep reproducing them; also ended up losing so many infestors after just 1 fungal... that's not cost effective well, these marine numbers are extremly hard to deal with, infestor and speedbanes are too expensive, zerglings too larva inefficient. spine crawlers take too long in these situations to build and wouldnt have been really efficient as SC can just take the route to the third instead. Roaches are OK against them, but SC reacted accordingly with mixing in marauders. Even if Losira had had all the exact production counts it is extremly hard to get an advantage once SC started flooding in units. only zergling/roach means SC can wait a little to have enough marines/marauders to deal with them effectively, so you have to tech to speedbanes/infestor to have them just in case I dont think that it was Losiras battle decision/behavior that cost him that game, but the lack of being prepared for this kind of pressure/timing maybe created by losing this initial OL (from this point on it was an uphill battle which lots of other Code S players would have lost way earlier) | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
But even if it's hard doesn't mean that progamers should be satisfied about their current micro level. Anyway, just rewatched the Losira game 1, it was really amazing <3 | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On May 04 2011 04:50 zeru wrote: MKP is lazy too, he plays all units, including tanks medivacs ravens, in 1 control group. Why do you think one of the best zergs wouldn't do the same? I'm pretty sure he don't put raven in 1 control group lol. And every terran should setup his main army in one control group you know. | ||
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zhurai
United States5660 Posts
infestors => dies so fast, the fungal dps, unless you go and try to hit him with banelings right after (?) is healed by like 12 medivacs so quickly >_> | ||
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Steel
Japan2283 Posts
-_- | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 04 2011 04:54 MrCon wrote: Big J you made some good points about larva inject and baneling micro, I changed my mind on those. But even if it's hard doesn't mean that progamers should be satisfied about their current micro level. Anyway, just rewatched the Losira game 1, it was really amazing <3 surely not, that's why they get paid for playing and people like you and me don't. just one more thing about injections: I (Master Zerg) lose approximatly 50% of my ZvTs (my worst MU) because my 2-3 queens get over 50energy in the midgame once I try to put on pressure while I actually have a ton money to produce more zerglings and banelings. Then, to get the best units I can, I start overproducing mutalisks and have nothing to deal with the bio  | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On May 04 2011 04:47 Leavzou wrote: Do you really think it's lazyness from one of the best zergs in the world ? It must be a troll. You're saying it's strategic to put them on the same hotkey as the main army/lings? Lol... sure... | ||
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proot
United States126 Posts
The entire flow of the first game would've changed if he engaged with the flank he planned. It wouldn't be sC with a huge infrastructure fighting against spawning zerg units, Losira would have had a ton more banelings to morph and the remnants of a standing army. The second game he was outmicroed and missed surrounds, which wasn't too surprising considering his unit control was off the entire series. The third game, he gambled by overproducing lings, hoping sC would hit a timing, then gambled again with a hidden third. Zerg playing from their backfoot the entire game will never work out for them unless their opponent has a colossal fuck up. Some of these comments seem intent on wanting terrans to just keel over and die because they automatically consider any sort of pressure style bullshit. | ||
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
he then proceeded to build reactors on most of them. For 110 seconds all Terran funds were in production of barracks and barracks related infrastructure. SC did this because he knew for sure that losira would get greedy and try to go 3hatch. It was a brilliant metagame call that would not work on a small map. Smaller maps would force the Zerg to build dudes which would pressure a Terran building 900 minerals worth of buildings at the same time. Can you really call such a risky play an all in especially when it was such a good read on his opponent's playstyle. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 04 2011 05:27 On_Slaught wrote: You're saying it's strategic to put them on the same hotkey as the main army/lings? Lol... sure... It's actually pretty funny that infinite unit selection has lead to an ability for skilled players to separate themselves from the pack, rather than making everyone equal as was feared. Would be so nice if Jaedong or someone seriously good switched. Would raise the bar so much. to sum up what I want to say: Zergs micro a lot too (at least they do things that I refer to as micro), mostly it just doesn't look as impressive as with P/T or it just isn't really effective that's why Zerg Players skip it and use their apm for counterattacks, injections, interceptions, harass, decision making instead I wouldn't be surprised if this is their thinking on the matter. If so, they clearly need (much) more APM, because the current results are seriously unimpressive. Either way, I expect more from pros. | ||
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AnDa1120
Canada472 Posts
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RoseTempest
Canada196 Posts
Losira cheeses Alicia = BRILLIANT ZERG STRATEGIC PLAY July cheeses MVP = HYPER AGGRESSIVE ZERG ACTION sC goes for a brilliantly executed, action packed, eventually 3 base 12 minute push against Losira or a standard bunker pressure or standard tank/rine and that counts as terrible terran play/constantly cheesing? Losira is one of "the world's best zergs"? Really? Based off 1 code A run, some patchy GSTL performance and his current cheese-fest to the RO8? Not knocking his strategies, I think zergs should definitely all in more, just because they can, and they're effective, but he's nothing special. You're basing your mindless speculation and bandwagoning off of something like 3-4 weeks worth of performance. The same thing is happening now with sC. He won a few games vs a decent player, and now people are hailing him as the next MKP. Get a grip. And what the hell is wrong with a game that isn't 40 minutes long? How many games do you play on ladder that actually last that long? Do you tell your opponent he's a cheesy noob if the game ends in less than 25 minutes? Yeah, thought so. Get off your high horse and look at your post before you submit it, the amount of trash in these threads makes me (and many like me) afraid to open an LR thread whenever there's a zerg playing. | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On May 04 2011 06:34 RoseTempest wrote: Once again: Losira cheeses Alicia = BRILLIANT ZERG STRATEGIC PLAY July cheeses MVP = HYPER AGGRESSIVE ZERG ACTION sC goes for a brilliantly executed, action packed, eventually 3 base 12 minute push against Losira or a standard bunker pressure or standard tank/rine and that counts as terrible terran play/constantly cheesing? Losira is one of "the world's best zergs"? Really? Based off 1 code A run, some patchy GSTL performance and his current cheese-fest to the RO8? Not knocking his strategies, I think zergs should definitely all in more, just because they can, and they're effective, but he's nothing special. You're basing your mindless speculation and bandwagoning off of something like 3-4 weeks worth of performance. The same thing is happening now with sC. He won a few games vs a decent player, and now people are hailing him as the next MKP. Get a grip. And what the hell is wrong with a game that isn't 40 minutes long? How many games do you play on ladder that actually last that long? Do you tell your opponent he's a cheesy noob if the game ends in less than 25 minutes? Yeah, thought so. Get off your high horse and look at your post before you submit it, the amount of trash in these threads makes me (and many like me) afraid to open an LR thread whenever there's a zerg playing. Many people seem to think good games have to be like 30 min+. They don't realize the avg sc1 game was like 15-20. Honestly 40 minute games blow, they're boring, dragged out, and just huge balls of stuff hitting other huge balls. Games where players work with very little and outmicro their opponents are much better. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On May 04 2011 02:37 N3rV[Green] wrote: Please get this mindset out of your brain. The Tier 1<Tier 2<Tier 3 setup that MANY RTS games do have, is simply not present in starcraft. All losira needed to clean up the marines is better infestor, zergling and baneling micro. Simple as that. This idea of "well marines are Tier 1 so they should get stomped after 10 minutes into the game, this is dumb" is simply bad. Ever watch BW? There's a TvZ style called SK Terran, and guess what you make ALL GAME LONG....marine and medic. BW is the greatest game ever, and if they could make marines all game long and keep their effectiveness, then that's just how shit rolls. Where the hell do people get this idea that the Tier relationship MUST hold true for the game to work? So god damn bad. I guess they've played too many bad RTS games. Units shouldn't become completely useless, because of teching, that's just terrible game design. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On May 04 2011 04:52 Big J wrote: well, these marine numbers are extremly hard to deal with, infestor and speedbanes are too expensive, zerglings too larva inefficient. spine crawlers take too long in these situations to build and wouldnt have been really efficient as SC can just take the route to the third instead. Roaches are OK against them, but SC reacted accordingly with mixing in marauders. Even if Losira had had all the exact production counts it is extremly hard to get an advantage once SC started flooding in units. only zergling/roach means SC can wait a little to have enough marines/marauders to deal with them effectively, so you have to tech to speedbanes/infestor to have them just in case I dont think that it was Losiras battle decision/behavior that cost him that game, but the lack of being prepared for this kind of pressure/timing maybe created by losing this initial OL (from this point on it was an uphill battle which lots of other Code S players would have lost way earlier) one of the tipping scales in that fight was that sC was able to take out losira's third; I think if he had held onto that he'd have won, but he was forced to remake banelings which took away too much time honestly there's no way sC could have outproduced losira in terms of marauders over roaches, he had like 5 reactors and 2?? tech labs obviously he should have gone some lings/banes with roaches, but I think he definitely overcommited on speed banes against a stream of 4-6 marines which won't be effective and again, he threw away infestors after one use and that alone is unforgivable and reason enough to lose | ||
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425kid
416 Posts
On May 04 2011 04:50 zeru wrote: MKP is lazy too, he plays all units, including tanks medivacs ravens, in 1 control group. Why do you think one of the best zergs wouldn't do the same? mkp also has some of the best unit control in the world to go with it. Losira couldnt handle a moving with 2 different groups of units... | ||
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mikyaJ
1834 Posts
Zerg Timing Attack -> Smart, well-timed Terran Timing Attack -> Cheese Protoss Timing Attack -> Imbalance | ||
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Pwere
Canada1557 Posts
On May 04 2011 05:49 lorkac wrote: How exactly do you think zergs get more production...? Being greedy is saturating the third before building an army. Not simply building it, which you have to do to use a ling-heavy style like he does.In game 1 SC had a weak point where he built 6 barracks at once. (check the production tab) he then proceeded to build reactors on most of them. For 110 seconds all Terran funds were in production of barracks and barracks related infrastructure. SC did this because he knew for sure that losira would get greedy and try to go 3hatch. It was a brilliant metagame call that would not work on a small map. Smaller maps would force the Zerg to build dudes which would pressure a Terran building 900 minerals worth of buildings at the same time. Can you really call such a risky play an all in especially when it was such a good read on his opponent's playstyle. What happened here is that Losira engaged with half his army, got cleaned up, then the other half (his ling flank) got there and barely cleaned up. From there it was a downhill battle. As zerg, you need to destroy these attacks if you haven't been overdroning, which Losira hadn't. Anything after this fuckup by Losira is irrelevant, although entertaining. | ||
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