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Arguing and whining in this thread will be met with the hammer. Please enjoy the games and keep this thread on track! |
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze.
That's just a massive exaggeration.
What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters.
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boxer... </3 he is definitely improving and i'm glad he made it so far but hasu deserved the win :\
conflicted feelings.
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On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:
You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze.
I would even go further and state that in BW, there would be more chances of TLO losing a game to a bronze than Flash losing a game to TLO. Besides, TLO was not A- in iccup, he was B. He did not practice BW enough apparently.
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I'm sad that BoxeR got eliminated but now I'm cheering for HasuObs. I didn't like him before but i love his smart play.
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gotta stay true to my roots, TERRAN! ThorZaIN or Kas fighting (hopefully thorzain though  )
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On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters.
If TLO was A- in BW then if they had played it would've been like masters vs bronze. SC2 is another matter though
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On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters.
Ehhh that's probably not an exaggeration at all. An iccup rank A is just lightyears behind someone like flash/jaedong still. Maybe not like TLO vs a bronze.. but maybe TLO vs a platinum/diamond.
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Many great games today! Nice run, Cruncher, keep improving! I'll never understand the Cruncher hate, unless it is just coming from Idra fans or Zerg players who think the MU is imba. The playstyle of 'play a defensive macro game with some harassing and attack when I'm teched up and maxed' doesn't seem too boring to me... seems like many BW strategies. You simply don't beat so many top players by being 'bad'. People were expecting a blowout from Naniwa and while I didn't expect Cruncher to win because Niniwa's PvP is so strong, more here should respect his play imho.
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I don't know why people are hating Cruncher. Saw his stream and he's a pretty hardworking player and he's no way Silver 2.0
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What I find interesting, considering the long-term perspective of PvT
If I'm not mistaken, Hasu didn't build ONE SINGLE phoenix in the whole series, despite the fact that Crevasse and Tal'Darim Altar are pretty much the biggest maps out there (except Terminus Re). Contrary, Boxer stomped Nightend, who relied heavily on phoenix-play.
I've never liked phoenixes vs terran, not as an opener, not as a late-game transition. WhiteRa hardly uses them and - as is now apparent - neither does Hasu, and both are top PvT players. I'm not sure, but I believe Nani doesn't really use them either. I think we've seen that, at least vs "classic" bio play, heavy upgrading into zealot-heavy gateway compositions with colossi AND templar tech is currently the strongest way to go vs terran.
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Yep, Cruncher's up and coming. Looking forward to seeing more of the kid. Idra called MarineKing and Nestea "awful" just before the GSL2 final. Don't know whether or not Cruncher'll have that kind of success, but the tendency for people (especially on forums) to hate players when they first start having success means pretty much nothing and is as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.
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Boxer just looked like a totally different player from his series vs. Sen. Nothing was clicking for him. His micro was terrible. His macro was terrible. Neither player went for any early pressure at all and Boxer still fell behind on bases, upgrades, unit count... I mean, I know his macro isn't the best, but it usually slips because he's microing 3 different armies in 3 different battles, not sitting in his base watching his resources shoot up. Heck, my apm is high enough to manage 2-3 bases while keeping things near zero.
The micro was just confounding. He obviously sees Hasu's army right in front of him on the edge of his vision but his reaction timing is completely off and just runs into the storms/ffields anyway. Wtf? I was particularly surprised that Boxer didn't just pick off the stray pylons w/ a simple drop and kept his army together all the time, even just to remove a pylon block for his next expo. His offensive drops were awful as well. I mean, he completely gave up on one where he could have microed a marauder to take out a 5 health cannon and let both of them die just autoshooting another one. His main army wasn't even engaged at the time. It takes a split second to click/drag and right-click the damn cannon. Wtf?
This looked like some random dude I'd play on ladder, not a pro. Boxer sick or something? Or is it his PvT? His VODs vs. NightEnd had some pretty bad looking micro too though the macro wasn't as bad. I thought it was maybe a latency issue but the matches vs. Sen had great macro and micro all around. Boxer's better when he's on the offense all the time. It's just a shock that he played passively the entire series without any real pressure.
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looking forward to recaps and interviews
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On April 26 2011 02:16 hugman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters. If TLO was A- in BW then if they had played it would've been like masters vs bronze. SC2 is another matter though
TLO was IPS.Radio on BW right?
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On April 26 2011 04:14 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 02:16 hugman wrote:On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters. If TLO was A- in BW then if they had played it would've been like masters vs bronze. SC2 is another matter though TLO was IPS.Radio on BW right?
Yeah
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On April 26 2011 04:26 n.DieJokes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 04:14 arb wrote:On April 26 2011 02:16 hugman wrote:On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters. If TLO was A- in BW then if they had played it would've been like masters vs bronze. SC2 is another matter though TLO was IPS.Radio on BW right? Yeah
The season i played a long PvP against him i think he was stuck around B-, wasnt long after that SC2 came out
However ranks have been cleaned on iccup, so he may have got A-
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On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters.
Yeah, he's not exaggerating. Watch the last WCG and watch how flash roffle stomps the Foreigners. Koreans are so good even TossGirl could roffle stomp pretty much any foreigner in her sleep and she sucks compared to Flash or Jeadong.
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On April 26 2011 04:40 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 01:35 MCDayC wrote:On April 26 2011 00:39 gen.Sun wrote:On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote:On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote:On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote:
^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. That's just a massive exaggeration. What this thread should be discussing is the awesomeness of the games that were played, and the awesomeness of the upcoming games. That's what matters. Yeah, he's not exaggerating. Watch the last WCG and watch how flash roffle stomps the Foreigners. Koreans are so good even TossGirl could roffle stomp pretty much any foreigner in her sleep and she sucks compared to Flash or Jeadong.
tossgirl actually loses most of her games vs foreigners ..
shes reallllllllllllllly bad
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the reason people keep bringing this up is because people like Tasteless, even as lately as last week! on GSL have been saying "WC3 players just cant keep up with BW players".. Watch the games last week on GSL and he was talking shit about how bad WC3 players were the whole series. That is why it gets brought up again, if there wasnt such a BW elitist attitude from a caster on the largest casted tourney in the world, we would accept the fact that everyone is equal.. But when people like Tasteless keep going "Well BW players are just superior in every way", That is such an untrue stereotype, as shown by almost every single result outside of GSL.
Even Artosis has learned since beta how false that is, and everytime tasteless goes on these "WC3 players are just bad" rants, Artosis changes the subject asap and doesnt contribute to the trolling. Good for Artosis, hes really learned at least on air, how to be professional. Wish I could say the same for his partner.
Its the same exact thing as IdrA, when he talks about how imbalanced everything in the game is except him, he tells his little fanboys and then they go around spreading it as if it is unbiased truth, just because it came from IdrA's mouth. Thats exactly what Tasteless does, and now everyone who isn't knowledgeable about the latest tournaments still think WC3 players are garbage, yet infact they have won almost everything outside of korea and have their footprint all over the TSL finals. Its just ridiculous that the community puts so much belief into what biased casters or players like Tasteless and IdrA say, as if they are the gospel.
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Skyze you seem to completely misquoting what Tasteless said. He was stating facts. Ex-BW pros have been more successful than ex-WC3 pros. It is fair for him to compare their previous games and for him to be surprised when some of the ex-WC3 pros are starting to win. I never heard him say "BW players are just superior in every way". You'll have to point out the game where he said that. I've only ever heard him talk about how in general, ex-WC3 players haven't been nearly as successful as ex-BW players, which has been true in the GSL and its hard to look at results outside of the GSL where in any given tournament, you only have a small subsection of the total players who can compete at that skill level.
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EPT
