EPT[TSL] Ro8 Day 2 - Page 208
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Arguing and whining in this thread will be met with the hammer. Please enjoy the games and keep this thread on track! | ||
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lovedoctor
Germany115 Posts
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LwReisen
Australia94 Posts
I don't need to state my views here. CrunCher taking 2 was a shock though. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On April 25 2011 16:16 WAAA wrote: ^ so what you are saying is wc3 players won at the beginning because they played the game worse than everyone else, and now are winning because they are playing starcraft 2, not warcraft 3. You're right this discussion is pointless. Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Btw, this whole wc3 vs BW argument would have never been brought up if people hadn't constantly been looking down on former wc3 players. In reality all this crap doesn't matter. The most skilled players will win, regardless of what they played previously. Minigun didn't play any RTS competitively before sc2 and look where he is now. | ||
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Lylat
France8575 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote: Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). As for mechanics, in Korea players like Maka, Check, Moon and Lyn got swept out of the way pretty fast by BW progamers. On the foreign scene there are almost no active ex BW pros at all. There's actually only IdrA, as Tyler and Ret had a really short stay on pro teams. Foreign Brood War scene was never as competitive and professional, it was actually quite underwhelming and there wasn't a lot of money in it. I really don't understand why people get offended by the fact that BW is the superior competitive RTS game (it's superior to SC2 as well anyway), and as such is hardest and most challenging to become a top player in. Nobody is making that up to "hate" on the other games, it's just such an obvious fact that certainly won't get proven wrong just because a few players who used to play WC3 are becoming sick good in SC2. | ||
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Veasel
Sweden159 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote: Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). As for mechanics, in Korea players like Maka, Check, Moon and Lyn got swept out of the way pretty fast by BW progamers. On the foreign scene there are almost no active ex BW pros at all. There's actually only IdrA, as Tyler and Ret had a really short stay on pro teams. Foreign Brood War scene was never as competitive and professional, it was actually quite underwhelming and there wasn't a lot of money in it. I really don't understand why people get offended by the fact that BW is the superior competitive RTS game (it's superior to SC2 as well anyway), and as such is hardest and most challenging to become a top player in. Nobody is making that up to "hate" on the other games, it's just such an obvious fact that certainly won't get proven wrong just because a few players who used to play WC3 are becoming sick good in SC2. You completly missed the fact that both Morrow and Jinro played BW before SC II. You fail sir. And you don't know shit about what your talking about. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote: Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. | ||
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Tula
Austria1544 Posts
I'd love to see Hasu play Slayers_Boxer in a Lan setting, but this way i can't really take the results seriously. Don't get me wrong, Hasu played very well and obviously prepared perfectly for this match. His drop defence was spot on which nullified a favorite tactic of boxer, but every time the main armies clashed you could see 5-10 things boxer could have microed better/faster. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote: Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. Conclusion, apart from Grr.. and Elky, I don't see a foreigner that can really be said to have been a good player, by programming standard. Maybe Legionnaire too. The foreign bw scene was indeed very small. I mean, TSL banned chinese and koreans (even non-pros) from participating, which is saying something. As for the rest of your argument, Nada is not playing seriously, Boxer not that much either, July switched late, and they are all doing pretty good in fact. Plus all those guys sucked at bw the last 4 years. The only decent bw player to have switched is MVP. And yeah, he was not that good. And my conclusion to all that would be that sc2 is not (yet if you're hopeful) good at separating good players. And that it made Boxer into a boring player  That bw is a superior competitive game to both wc3 and sc2. And that a bw background is helping a lot in sc2, but nothing that better practise and preparation can't overcome.User was warned for this post Edited because of warning. | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 25 2011 19:59 sleepingdog wrote: Lol this post wins, it's spot on. In the beginning everyone was like "blah, once the game gets figured out, the former BW pros will pwn the previous wc3 players hard because wc3 players can't macro" Now they are "blah, the wc3 players obviously worked very hard on overcoming their flaws from playing wc3 and are still barely keeping on because sc2 doesn't demand enough mechanical skill" Btw, this whole wc3 vs BW argument would have never been brought up if people hadn't constantly been looking down on former wc3 players. In reality all this crap doesn't matter. The most skilled players will win, regardless of what they played previously. Minigun didn't play any RTS competitively before sc2 and look where he is now. To be fair the Wc3 foreign scene was much more developed than the BW foreign scene. The only top notch BW pros that were capable of sort of competeing in Korea were Idra, Ret, and Tyler. I think it makes sense that foreign Wc3 players are doing better, because I think the Wc3 scene as a whole had more talent. Like you said, it has nothing to do with which game was harder or which game demanded more macro. Select played Dawn of War and look where he is now. If you look at the GSL, though, all 5 winners have been Brood War players and all runner ups except for Rain have been BW players. Basically BW pros are murdering everyone, which again makes sense because BW in Korea was much more developed than Wc3, so probably had a better talent pool. | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote: Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. Jinro and TLO were good yes, but nowhere near competitive or prrofessional to the extent they are now. Jinro was in Jangbi's clan but then again TelecOm was briefly in [Alive] and he's nobody. Jinro never really competed at the highest level of even foreign BW. As for TLO, I'd check again because I'm pretty he reached B-. Either way it doesn't mean he has a competitive background. He never competed in the TSLs or WCG or anything, he was just a high ranked guy on ladder. Also I think this statement is untrue: In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada) You fail to take into account current form and age. Boxer is in his 30s, July was horrible and hadn't been sent out for a proleague game for like 2 years, and Nada was also way past his prime. Basically all 3 of those players were completely past their prime and were kind of irrelevant in the scene when they switched. It would be like Maradona starting soccer again and playing in the US, and drawing conclusions about how US soccer compares to everywhere else. I think just the fact that Boxer and July have found so many good results despite being terrible when they switched (just being honest....I love both players but you can't deny their prime had past) shows how strong the Korean Brood War scene was. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10670 Posts
Thats not exactly surprising or anything and everyone who thought it would be diffrent, was blindfolded by his bias for a certain game. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:34 Talin wrote: Well both of those statements are actually true. While having a WC3 background is certainly not a "flaw", it really isn't much of a benefit either. You have plenty of players with no serious competitive background that became very successful in SC2 as well (Jinro, HuK and TLO to name a few). As for mechanics, in Korea players like Maka, Check, Moon and Lyn got swept out of the way pretty fast by BW progamers. On the foreign scene there are almost no active ex BW pros at all. There's actually only IdrA, as Tyler and Ret had a really short stay on pro teams. Foreign Brood War scene was never as competitive and professional, it was actually quite underwhelming and there wasn't a lot of money in it. I really don't understand why people get offended by the fact that BW is the superior competitive RTS game (it's superior to SC2 as well anyway), and as such is hardest and most challenging to become a top player in. Nobody is making that up to "hate" on the other games, it's just such an obvious fact that certainly won't get proven wrong just because a few players who used to play WC3 are becoming sick good in SC2. There are no proof that WC3 background isn't much of a benefit. Jinro and TLO were well known competitiv player (jinro was a protoss in SC:BW and pretty good but never done anything in competition, TLO was playing some other games with his brother and he was also a good player in scbw, huk was a top player in another random game). In korea the competition is so hard at the moment that you can't just say anything about the level of someone. Every player that won GSL just lost almost in the first round in the next GSL. MVP... now MC. Moon was awesome at IEM, and cannot get into code S, Lyn is in code S for now, Check has yet to fall into code A, Maka feels like he was a one hit wonder. Songho is in code A since ages, July is still questionnable, Boxer in code A... | ||
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KOFgokuon
United States14893 Posts
congrats to the winners | ||
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havox_
Germany442 Posts
On April 25 2011 22:26 Velr wrote: It's mainly the before SC2 most developed E-Sports in each Region which bring the most good players. Thats not exactly surprising or anything and everyone who thought it would be diffrent, was blindfolded by his bias for a certain game. THIS. It's so obvious, that you must be blind if you dont see it^^ Why should it be surprising that all GSL winners were former BW players? Almost every Korean who wanted to play a game serious played BW... The always ongoing bw-wc3 discussion is so ridiculous that i actually have to laugh about it (especially since bw players are so amazingly arrogant thinking that they played the "only real game ever" - saying this although i would agree that it's a "better" game than wc3) On a sidenote: All 4 players deservered the win, no matter which game they played before or if the Koreans had bad luck with lag... Pretty excited for the semis although it's 2 mirrors... But TvT obv rocks especially with players like Kas and ThorZain and quite sure a PvP between Hasu and Nani will be pretty entertaining, too. | ||
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:06 Lylat wrote: Well this discussion about wc3 and BW player is useless but tbh the top BW pro (Flash, Jaedong, Bizu,etc...) haven't switched yet unlike wc3 pro Yup.. which is why WC3 players are currently dominating the foreign scene.. inside Korea though is another matter as the pool of BW B-teamers and semi-pros was much larger. | ||
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
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gen.Sun
United States539 Posts
On April 25 2011 20:55 Kyo Yuy wrote: Jinro was part of the Korean Brood War Dream.t clan that Jangbi was in. TLO was A- in ICCUP before transferring to SC2. Huk was one of the top players in Company of Heroes before joining SC2. All of this information can be found on Liquipedia. Also, there were quite a few foreigners who were part of BW pro teams aside from Idra, Tyler, and Ret. Draco, Elky, Giyom, and a few Chinese players were all part of Korean pro teams at some point. I'm not going to make any argument is to which RTS is "the best," but I just wanted to make sure you got your facts straight. As far as I know, the vast majority of known SC2 progamers DO have previous significant previous RTS experience. To say that Jinro, Huk, and TLO had no serious competitive background is incorrect. In Korea, some of the best SC2 progamers were BW progamers who have very few accomplishments in BW (e.g. oGsMC, MVP, Nestea, MKP, and even FruitDealer). In contrast, the "bonjwas" and really well known players in BW have not been able to show strong consistent performances in the GSL (Boxer, July, Nada). Some of the best BW progamers from the U.S. are showing strong performances in SC2 nationally. It's Europe where we see the greatest representation of ex WC3 progamers, but even some European BW players like DIMAGA have shown amazing results outside of TSL (and Dimaga was banned from TSL3 due to TSL2 ladder abuse - who knows what might have happened if Dimaga had been allowed to enter)? SC2, WC3, and BW are different games. You can have an opinion as to which game is the best, but ultimately they are separate games and experience in one doesn't dictate domination/skill in another. Judging from the wide representation of RTS backgrounds in SC2, I'd say the best SC2 players are determined based on how good those players are at SC2, and not based on what game they played prior to moving to SC2. You have no idea what you're talking about bro. A- on iccup is nowhere near competitive level, that's like saying all grandmasters are competitive. Bbbzzzz wrong. Also the bonjwas sucked at bw in the timeline of MVP and mc. You don't really understand the skill gap towards the higher end of bw. There's as much difference between TLO and Flash as there as between TLO and a bronze. | ||
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Aevum
Canada27 Posts
wait until the likes of grubby/tod/moon/lyn have more experience until you jump to conclusions and for reference, out of the four semifinalists in this TSL, none of them were that strong at wc3. hasuobs was the strongest, being a moderately strong undead player who never competed well internationally but played well at eps in germany. kas was a semipro european who never accomplished anything major. he was a full amateur up until the very end of wc3 and was never the best player in the ukraine until all of his peers quit (hot, fix, all of ngt). thorzain same story, amateur until the very end when he turned semipro and the rest of europe retired cruncher same story but in the usa, second or third tier north american human until all of the other players quit due to a nonexistent scene (nilknarf, sonkie, longwalk etc) to put it into perspective, cruncher, thorzain, and kas were not on teams that participated in the WC3L (the premier team league for wc3, top 12 teams in it, basically the cutoff for semipro before the last two seasons or so when the scene died and the quality nosedived) until the last few seasons, and even then they were on the fringe with negative records. Kas less so. Hasuobs regularly competed and did alright. | ||
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purgerinho
Croatia919 Posts
I mean, sc2 is for masses, it is played by bw and w3 player. With one game you have two types of players and all of them are very good in it. But it is harder for bw players than w3 players. BW asked for more skill (if we look first 7-10 minutes) and bw players can't show it anymore.. they have to play macro games.. if flash will come in sc2 he will be great but jaedong will not because sc2 landed the zerg, mutas aren't so scary anymore (if we look first period of game).. but i would love to know how bisu would manage with sc2. I think he would be awesome. And just don't forget, this is the first tournament ever with top korean players in it that will be won by some non korean player!  | ||
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