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On May 24 2011 10:11 iamahydralisk wrote:
Okay seriously... Blizz needs to do something about forcefields. I'm not normally the type to whine about balance, but Idra was up like 70 supply at one point in that game (and I believe he was up at least 40 when the first big clash happened). Forcefield shouldn't be able to make up that big of a deficit.
It's ultra easy to be ahead on the supply count for Zerg.
Just use your superior macro mechanics and build 2 supply roaches.
Being 1-2 base ahead or 30 supply ahead doesn't mean shit.
If you want to talk about equality, let's allow Protoss to expand blindly and have 3 bases with 60 harvesters after 6 mins like Zerg.
After that I might agree about a forcefield nerf.
+ Show Spoiler +no really, building a lot of drones because of superior macro mechanics doesn't make you a better macro player, or even a good player at all
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On May 24 2011 10:12 Kurr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:09 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 24 2011 10:08 Chicane wrote:On May 24 2011 10:08 coddan wrote:
so frustrating. xiaot just says "you are not allowed to attack" and there is nothing idra can do about it ?? How. He had hive tech and Ultras can stomp force fields... instead he moved way in with broods against blink stalkers. Do you understand how awful ultras are vs toss? Ultras are awful against everything unfortunately. They need a boost to be any useful; they die so quickly. I can't remember the last time I saw a zerg go ultras and do well. They don't have dark swam to protect them, they need more HP or something else to let them get in and do damage, otherwise it's a waste to go ultras in any matchup. It's sad. I'm a protoss player but Ultras are one of my favorite units and it's sad to see them so useless.
I dunno, Ultra / ling / infestor in ZvT is pretty sick if you have 2 evos upgrading lol
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On May 24 2011 10:11 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:10 MechKing wrote:On May 24 2011 10:08 Engore wrote:
God lol. I'm glad i play protoss. Forcefield is so op. That's a negative. FF's are pretty hard to use well. how is it hard to put down 5 forcefields in a line? which effectively halts everything
Please don't oversimplify things. How hard is it to a-move as Zerg? Getting forcefields up on time and not overlapping or leaving spaces is pretty hard to do.
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On May 24 2011 10:16 TopOgi wrote:
sen idra 2-1
zenio idra 2-0
xiaot idra 2-0
wat the hell is going on
Oh come on, he lost to arguable the best foreign zerg in Sen, then one of the best Korean zergs in Zenio, and then probably the best Chinese toss in xiaot. It's not like Idra is doing really poorly, he's just playing the best of the best.
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On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong.
Not if you're making the wrong units and utilising them badly. You're whining that Protoss can just A move their ball by saying that Zerg should also be able to A move their ball.
It should be a mix of unit control, unit composition and unit numbers, Idra only had the latter, Xaviot had the first two, hence he won.
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On May 24 2011 10:16 TopOgi wrote:
sen idra 2-1
zenio idra 2-0
xiaot idra 2-0
wat the hell is going on
? Those are all great players that he lost to. IdrA isn't some god who is expected to win every game. Sometimes good players lose games... especially to other good players...
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I think that IdrA overcommited into roaches, he should have pumped out more infestors earlier so he would have been able to fungal the stalkers at the same time that he would drop banelings over them.
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On May 24 2011 10:17 quiet noise wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Idra threw it away by not carpet bombing his banelings nor getting burrow walk. He could have crushed Xiaot with better control/engagements.
either of those options would have left him fighting with only half his army
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I was very impressed by XiaOt he completely negated every aggression by idrA! The great wall of china in the first game was epic, brilliant crisis management. I think the Chinese will dominate sc2 scene in a couple of years.
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On May 24 2011 10:16 ken- wrote:
Idra has to work on his micro. His macro was far superior but it doesn't matter when you lose every micro battle. Rewatch the match ups Xiaot's micro was incredible. Even the casters pointed out how Idra failed to use his full energy infestors...
Also broodlords were a terrible choice vs. blink stalkers.
Outplayed.
Yeah, I don't get why people keep complaining about Protoss just attack moving when they actually have to FF and Blink. Meanwhile Idra just moves his army in 1 big ball. As Zerg, you're supposed to flank from multiple angles.
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On May 24 2011 10:18 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Not if you're making the wrong units and utilising them badly. You're whining that Protoss can just A move their ball by saying that Zerg should also be able to A move their ball. It should be a mix of unit control, unit composition and unit numbers, Idra only had the latter, Xaviot had the first two, hence he won.
That's the thing. Forcefields nullify your ability to control your units.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
This is a stupid discussion to have. Unmolested, protoss will be at about 130-150 supply when zerg hits 200/200. IdrA was 50-70 supply ahead about points because that's what zerg can do. That's zerg's advantage. Zerg can make a ton of units.
Problem is, zerg units aren't necessarily as good as the units of other races. Which puts the premium on them being used as efficiently as possible. Meanwhile protoss, also needs to use their units efficiently because, while being stronger, they have significantly less stuff. Hence balance and micro.
And in that game, IdrA didn't do anything special with his army, and paid a steep price for it. It's not FF's being imba, or ultras sucking, or anything. That was as standard as ZvP comes these days, except IdrA for whatever reason didn't use his army well, and xiaOt's micro was by in large exceptional.
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On May 24 2011 10:19 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:17 quiet noise wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Idra threw it away by not carpet bombing his banelings nor getting burrow walk. He could have crushed Xiaot with better control/engagements. either of those options would have left him fighting with only half his army
How would carpet bombing his banelings (the ones that were already part of his army) leave him fighting with only half his army? First of all they weren't half of his army.. but lets assume they were... they would still be used as part of the army to fight... what!?
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On May 24 2011 10:19 coddan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:17 quiet noise wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Idra threw it away by not carpet bombing his banelings nor getting burrow walk. He could have crushed Xiaot with better control/engagements. either of those options would have left him fighting with only half his army
wait, what? those upgrades dont cost that much.
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Lol the idra fanbot squad in full whining mode tonight. XiaOt just roflstomped the kid in a fair fight.. wasn't he owning P players left and right before tonight?
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On May 24 2011 10:20 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:18 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Not if you're making the wrong units and utilising them badly. You're whining that Protoss can just A move their ball by saying that Zerg should also be able to A move their ball. It should be a mix of unit control, unit composition and unit numbers, Idra only had the latter, Xaviot had the first two, hence he won. That's the thing. Forcefields nullify your ability to control your units.
So does Fungal Growth and Idra spent half the engagements with his army butting heads with the forcefields there is no excuse for that.
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On May 24 2011 10:21 s4life wrote:
Lol the idra fanbot squad in full whining mode tonight. XiaOt just roflstomped the kid in a fair fight.. wasn't he owning P players left and right before tonight?
Couldnt agree more.
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On May 24 2011 10:20 oo inflame oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:18 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Not if you're making the wrong units and utilising them badly. You're whining that Protoss can just A move their ball by saying that Zerg should also be able to A move their ball. It should be a mix of unit control, unit composition and unit numbers, Idra only had the latter, Xaviot had the first two, hence he won. That's the thing. Forcefields nullify your ability to control your units.
no, not if you control them correctly. Zerg has many counters to forcefields. Idra didnt overlord drop his banelings, wich is why xiaot had all his sentries alive all game long.
the only ability that completley nullifies your ability to countrol your units is Fungual Growth
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This was posted in the closed spoiler thread. It's a translated interview with XiaoT after the match:
+ Show Spoiler +Q: congratz on your win vs. idra, how do you feel after? A: Thanks! every match has been harder and harder, so my only thought is to focus on them one at a time. Q:In the match did you predict that Idra was going to go fake expo to roach all in? you seemed calm when defending against it? A: I am very careful with my openings and strategies and only uses them after much consideration. I am pretty confident it can defend against rushes with high probability. Q:In 2nd match Idra was able to macro up extremely well, with 200 population to 130 of yours, but you were able to take advantage of forcefield and come back one step at a time. A: With hatch opening zerg will have a huge macro/econ advange over p so 200 at that point is not very uncommon. As long as the location, unit composition, and micro all done properly, p can actually fight against 200 population with just 130. I can also switch from d to attack very fast, so as long as I can get to 3 bases, successfully defend, i'm confident that I can win the match. Q:You should be pretty familiar with Idra, did you specifically prepare to play against him? A: Yea i've been preparing for it lately, xigua[another chinese player, name means "watermelon"] has been practicing with me. I acutally think xigua is 2 levels better than Idra, so there wasn't much pressure playing against him in the real match. [T/N: ouch =P, not sure who xigua is though, if anyone else can fill that information in it would be great.] there are 3 more questions, some about MKP, will do those later after work. Here is the source: http://sc2.plu.cn/interviews/2011-05-18/28659.html
XiaoT seems to be comfortable playing high-tech vs. macro Zerg. His decision making is pretty good all around. Something the casters didn't catch is that Idra DID try to baneling drop XiaoT's mineral line but XiaoT took minimal damage from it each time. He obviously has experience against this style whereas Idra looked... Well, he looked like he didn't have an answer to the FFs and Blink Stalkers.
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On May 24 2011 10:22 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 10:20 oo inflame oo wrote:On May 24 2011 10:18 Blasphemi wrote:On May 24 2011 10:14 oo inflame oo wrote:
With a 50-70 supply lead you should be able to kill your opponent. Forcefields are so strong. Not if you're making the wrong units and utilising them badly. You're whining that Protoss can just A move their ball by saying that Zerg should also be able to A move their ball. It should be a mix of unit control, unit composition and unit numbers, Idra only had the latter, Xaviot had the first two, hence he won. That's the thing. Forcefields nullify your ability to control your units. So does Fungal Growth and Idra spent half the engagements with his army butting heads with the forcefields there is no excuse for that.
I agree with this. If there are VODs/replays later... go watch them. There are MANY engagements where IdrA just slammed his units against the force fields. Maybe if he simply ran away from them with minor losses (arguably no loss with the sentry energy lost) then they wouldn't have looked so powerful.
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EPT
