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Its time to enjoy the matches, keep the whining out of this thread. GL HF!
Also, don't reply to the whining and ignore it: have faith in the mods, we read every post and act swiftly. You're making it worse. Enjoy! |
On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively?
Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second.
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On April 18 2011 18:34 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively? Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second.
Im saying kill the colossi with the corruptors and take on whats left with roach/hydra.
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On April 18 2011 18:45 EvilSky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:34 magha wrote:On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively? Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second. Im saying kill the colossi with the corruptors and take on whats left with roach/hydra.
The problem with this is that if you have hydras against ~3 or more collossi then by the time the corruptors have killed the collossi all your hydras are dead. If you send in the corruptors first then toss runs the collossi away while seriously thinning out your corruptors with voidrays and stalkers. You either have to sacrifice your ground army by forcing the toss to commit in order to take out the collossi or give away free hits on your corruptors while doing most damage.
If you watch most Zvdeath ball engagements the collossi freqently are taken out but by the time they are the zerg ground army has melted leaving the stalkers free to march into the base and pick off reinforcements/snipe tech/kill our economy.
Large numbers of broodlords + hydras is probably the most viable way of dealing with the death ball, but getting the balance right is really really hard for zerg. Either you undermake broodlords, fail to kill all the collossi and your hydras disintegrate or you undermake hydras, fail to kill all the void rays then lose all your broods afterwards.
Apologies for one brief balance 'whine' (I think the above is strategy discussion rather than whine though I'm sure plenty of toss will disagree), but I don't think the game should be set up in a way that if toss reaches 200/200 with a voidray/collossi/stalker/sentry mix it is a 90% chance the toss will go on to win. I have no problem with zerg being disadvantaged in that situation and being encouraged to prevent that arising but there should still be something we can do. At the moment it feels like there isn't anything 
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On April 18 2011 18:45 EvilSky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:34 magha wrote:On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively? Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second. Im saying kill the colossi with the corruptors and take on whats left with roach/hydra.
Usually they do. It depends on how many void rays and collosi there are, and how many hydras Zerg has made. If there are many collosi, often Zerg will focus down voids first so that they don't need to waste money on hydras to kill them.
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On April 18 2011 18:02 Jojo131 wrote:
I don't know if I agree with people saying Cruncher defended well in game 2.
He lost like 3 bases, pretty sure every base Mondragon targeted he either took it out or killed some production buildings. Sorry, all I saw was Mondragon ripping this guy apart before he decided to 1a his stalkers and win.
The supplies during that game tells another story 
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On April 18 2011 19:21 atavus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:02 Jojo131 wrote:
I don't know if I agree with people saying Cruncher defended well in game 2.
He lost like 3 bases, pretty sure every base Mondragon targeted he either took it out or killed some production buildings. Sorry, all I saw was Mondragon ripping this guy apart before he decided to 1a his stalkers and win. The supplies during that game tells another story
That the reason most zerg don't do that kind of harass because you are killing workers, buildings, bases but not his army. After all harass he may be with 0 bases but he comes with his deathball and kills everything you have. Some people don't understand this though..
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Sorry but mondragon didn't kill that much probes either, if you look at the unit tab they often have around the same number of workers.
For the building destroyed, mondragon take out a forge, some pylon; the nexus was a fourth (not really that much) & the only big loss was the third nexus, but as Mondragon didn't really killed probes.... :/
Compared to the first game, i really don't think that mondragon style have been hyper effective.
Damn I want that replay............
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All Protoss semi finals ftw.
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On April 18 2011 18:45 EvilSky wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:34 magha wrote:On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively? Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second. Im saying kill the colossi with the corruptors and take on whats left with roach/hydra.
You mean just sacrifice all your corruptors while picking off as much colossus as possible, then move your Roaches/Hydras in to clean up the rest?
Not sure if it will work...
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Now that Mondragon is out i'm hoping so bad for thorzain kill the shit out of MC and one of the remaining terrans/Adelscott take the whole thing.
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On April 18 2011 21:19 magha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:45 EvilSky wrote:On April 18 2011 18:34 magha wrote:On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively? Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second. Im saying kill the colossi with the corruptors and take on whats left with roach/hydra. You mean just sacrifice all your corruptors while picking off as much colossus as possible, then move your Roaches/Hydras in to clean up the rest? Not sure if it will work...
As mentioned before: what if you did this while dropping 1 overlord with Roaches in each mineral line. They will want to focus your corruptors with the stalkers leaving their probes vulnerable. Most of your Roach/Hydra army will be somewhere else, so you'll be safe from their Stalker/Voidray (after the Colossus are gone) counterattack aswell? It all depends on how effective the corruptor exchange is though
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On April 18 2011 19:20 Silkath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 18:45 EvilSky wrote:On April 18 2011 18:34 magha wrote:On April 18 2011 18:26 EvilSky wrote:
I dont really play so can someone please explain to me why zergs take on fully charged void rays with corruptors when there are only 3 colossi on the field. Wouldnt they be able to target down the colossi and engage with roach/hydra vs the void rays/ground army considering the hydras have the dps to take all those small units down effectively? Colossus HARD counter Hydras. Hydras are slow. You really want to avoid using them against Protoss. Using Roach/Hydra against a Protoss deathball, even if they only have 3 Colossus, the Hydras all die in a second. Im saying kill the colossi with the corruptors and take on whats left with roach/hydra. The problem with this is that if you have hydras against ~3 or more collossi then by the time the corruptors have killed the collossi all your hydras are dead. If you send in the corruptors first then toss runs the collossi away while seriously thinning out your corruptors with voidrays and stalkers. You either have to sacrifice your ground army by forcing the toss to commit in order to take out the collossi or give away free hits on your corruptors while doing most damage. If you watch most Zvdeath ball engagements the collossi freqently are taken out but by the time they are the zerg ground army has melted leaving the stalkers free to march into the base and pick off reinforcements/snipe tech/kill our economy. Large numbers of broodlords + hydras is probably the most viable way of dealing with the death ball, but getting the balance right is really really hard for zerg. Either you undermake broodlords, fail to kill all the collossi and your hydras disintegrate or you undermake hydras, fail to kill all the void rays then lose all your broods afterwards. Apologies for one brief balance 'whine' (I think the above is strategy discussion rather than whine though I'm sure plenty of toss will disagree), but I don't think the game should be set up in a way that if toss reaches 200/200 with a voidray/collossi/stalker/sentry mix it is a 90% chance the toss will go on to win. I have no problem with zerg being disadvantaged in that situation and being encouraged to prevent that arising but there should still be something we can do. At the moment it feels like there isn't anything
There's a few army compositions that can combat deathballs. The one I recommend is ultra + baneling + hydra.
There pretty much needs to be ultras to soak the colossus damage and stomp forcefields but when the banelings connect with the stalkers & colossi the game is pretty much over. Hydras are there just to hit air. Queen's might be viable as well.
Keep in mind that this might not work at masters level. The midgame of ultra, baneling and hydra is quite weak. However, 200 colossi, stalker, voidray vs 200 ultra, baneling, hydra usually ends up with zerg crushing protoss with ~all the hydras and a few ultras left over.
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When will the interviews come?
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On April 18 2011 05:01 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 04:57 s4life wrote:On April 18 2011 04:55 Vetrocide wrote:On April 18 2011 04:54 Cranberries wrote:
Deathball dying to Mondragon?
Problem, IdrA?
Look to Mondragon for the "messiah" tactics! :D that was no deathball go troll somewhere else That's the whole point of ZvP.. avoid de deathball. tbf, Idra does not have the multitasking and good decision making necessary to play like Mondi. Desicion making? Maybe. Multitask? Definitely not... Have you ever watched his stream?
Yep,
He's a 200APM guy, I've seen better even from other foreigners.. He has really solid builds though... the guys practices a lot.
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On April 19 2011 04:29 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 05:01 OutlaW- wrote:On April 18 2011 04:57 s4life wrote:On April 18 2011 04:55 Vetrocide wrote:On April 18 2011 04:54 Cranberries wrote:
Deathball dying to Mondragon?
Problem, IdrA?
Look to Mondragon for the "messiah" tactics! :D that was no deathball go troll somewhere else That's the whole point of ZvP.. avoid de deathball. tbf, Idra does not have the multitasking and good decision making necessary to play like Mondi. Desicion making? Maybe. Multitask? Definitely not... Have you ever watched his stream? Yep, He's a 200APM guy, I've seen better even from other foreigners.. He has really solid builds though... the guys practices a lot.
I am almost certain that Mondragon is slower than IdrA lol, what has apm got to do with anything?
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I think it would be interesting to fake out toss like they do forcing corruptors with colossi, but this time zerg does the fake. Build about 2-3 infestors and get blink stalkers to blink in to snipe the infestors and while the stalkers are in on cool down mass speed bane them. ~40 stalkers dying would most likly be a GG.
A lot of you say toss A moves but really zerg seems to be the A move race simply by having few casters. Toss OTOH has sentry, phoenix, stalkers, HTs all having to cast to make work like cruncher did. Hardly A moving with blinking, storms, graviton beam etc. Cruncher doesn't do casting he dies against zergs more effective units/ cost. Every one of zerg units besides infestor & corruprtor is A move and zerg is too lazy to incorporate even one caster in group? Give me a break. Build infestors and use them and I thnk they will, meta game is about to change in this next month. Strategy forums is full of replays with newer effective play styles as opposed to A moveing roach/hydra which is failing miserably.
Oh yeah and burrow is I suppose is another cast but worthless against best scout in the game protoss has, the observer. So again roach/hydra's strength is nullified.
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On April 19 2011 05:42 tdt wrote:
I think it would be interesting to fake out toss like they do forcing corruptors with colossi, but this time zerg does the fake. Build about 2-3 infestors and get blink stalkers to blink in to snipe the infestors and while the stalkers are in on cool down mass speed bane them. ~40 stalkers dying would most likly be a GG.
Your whole strategy revolves around your opponent over committing to kill 3 infestors. Forcefields negate banelings. You also waste so much gas on banelings that your hydra count will be too low to deal with any sort of air.
No, you don't have the answer to everyones problems.
I think Naniwa is the only one capable of taking on MC currently, perhaps Kas as well.
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On April 18 2011 17:37 Xaax wrote:
I think to counter the toss deathball requires an hive. From what day9 said in the tsl yesterday zergs need to/should get hive tech somewhere at late game or mid game.
believe it or not, day9 knows less than the z players he commentates on. the problem is the only thing that comes close to countering voidrays are hydras and possibly infestors and both of those get countered by collosi. corruptors shouldnt be a hard counter to voids but they should come out somewhat even, currently they do not. on shakuras mondragon needed to snipe the collosi and mass voids. he had a very small opporunity to snipe the collosi but decided to engage the voids instead. on meta he shouldve sacked his bottom expansion and not engaged +3 stalkers with his muta ball. he needed to wait for his roaches that were hatching or have lings to supplement b4 engaging w his mutas. if he waited he wouldve gotten the templar archives and kept his muta ball alive. too bad
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EPT
