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On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does.
Oh god, you and your fellow hater specimen absolutely sicken me to no end.
Do yourself a favor and read this:
Introducing...the SCRUB
I hope this piece of brillance will enlighten your narrow mind.
Honor? Pride? Real game? Coin flip? Scrubs love these terms I see...
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On April 14 2011 14:08 Stanlot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does. What? That is exactly not what a coinflip is. Anyone with a pro's level of game sense would have seen White-Ra doing the same build four times in a row. MC had reasonable belief that White-Ra would not deviate in the 5th game and he didn't. Had it been a blind 2 gate proxy on the first game against someone he had never played, then I would agree that it was risky move, but he had 4 games to notice White-Ra's general style of play in addition to their recent TSL games. MC did not blindly pull a cheesy build. White-Ra is an amazing player and one of my favorites but it's his fault and nobody else's that he played predictably and lost the ace match because of it.
Hilarious that some people are believing MC's explanation.
When you proxygate like that, you don't lose when your opponent makes a zealot after core. You lose when your opponent scouts it. And this is MC leaving the game to luck. Luck was on his side because White-Ra did not know that the 3p spawn map became a 2p spawn map.
I will explain it further for some who are still confused...
If you proxy gate, and your opponent makes a zealot, it doesn't matter! He spent money on gas/cybercore while you are pumping zealots in his base out of 2 gateways. You still win.
Do you see Proxy-gates on 4p maps such as Lost temple, tal'darim, terminus RE? No! How can you proxy gate if you don't know where your opponent spawns? This is the reason White-Ra lost the game. He thought a proxy-gate was outside the realm of possibility! He even checked the empty spawn with his scouting probe, not knowing this map had been edited to become a 2p map!
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On April 14 2011 14:11 Krehlmar wrote:
In what way, was it not a coinflip, when it all came down to MC hoping White-Ra would not scout it?
It wasn't "Risky" It was a godamned coinflip... stop defending MC as if he needs it, he's 15 000$ richer and happier for doing it. Still a dull game and a sad ending to what was else a superb tournament.
If you read MC's tweet, he already confirmed that it was his strategy, not a coinflip. Is it MC's fault that WhiteRa didnt scout? WhiteRa did the same shit 4 games in a row in which each game would lose to cheese. Moreover, the shakuras plateau had the highest chance of succeeding that proxy gate, since there's only 2 spawn locations on the map. MC mightve hoped WhiteRa didnt realize that it was a new map, which he was right for.
Give me a break, there's a reason why MC is richest sc2 progamer as of now. I don't like cheese either, but if I was in MC's position and I knew a sureway to win, I would do it too. If you whiners want sureway long macro games, go back to your FMP and zc NR20.
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To bring poker terminology into this, the move was +EV because he knew White-Ra's patterns. It meant that it wasn't a "coinflip" (which implies that there's a 50% chance of winning or losing) but that it was a controlled risk (i.e.: he had a 75% (or greater than 50% in any case) chance of winning) and therefore, is a +EV move.
PvP straight up /is/ a coinflip though. So, if you pose the question to every pro-protoss gamer and tell them that there's a $15,000 prize but they can have either a 50% of winning it or a higher than 50% of winning it, almost every pro, I would think, would take the <50% route. That's just playing smart.
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On April 14 2011 14:24 wxwx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:08 Stanlot wrote:On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does. What? That is exactly not what a coinflip is. Anyone with a pro's level of game sense would have seen White-Ra doing the same build four times in a row. MC had reasonable belief that White-Ra would not deviate in the 5th game and he didn't. Had it been a blind 2 gate proxy on the first game against someone he had never played, then I would agree that it was risky move, but he had 4 games to notice White-Ra's general style of play in addition to their recent TSL games. MC did not blindly pull a cheesy build. White-Ra is an amazing player and one of my favorites but it's his fault and nobody else's that he played predictably and lost the ace match because of it. Hilarious that some people are believing MC's explanation. When you proxygate like that, you don't lose when your opponent makes a zealot after core. You lose when your opponent scouts it. And this is MC leaving the game to luck. Luck was on his side because White-Ra did not know that the 3p spawn map became a 2p spawn map. I will explain it further for some who are still confused... If you proxy gate, and your opponent makes a zealot, it doesn't matter! He spent money on gas/cybercore while you are pumping zealots in his base out of 2 gateways. You still win. Do you see Proxy-gates on 4p maps such as Lost temple, tal'darim, terminus RE? No! How can you proxy gate if you don't know where your opponent spawns? This is the reason White-Ra lost the game. He thought a proxy-gate was outside the realm of possibility! He even checked the empty spawn with his scouting probe, not knowing this map had been edited to become a 2p map!
Just a couple things I wanted to note:
-White-Ra is apparently notorious for scouting late. There was about one instance where he might have spotted the proxy and that's when his first scouting probe at 13 skated right by MC pylon and just barely missed it. At that point, MC already had his first gate half done and his second gate seconds behind White-Ra's. Even if he had spotted it, it would have been ridiculously close. Not as much of a gamble as many people are making it out to be.
-The last minute map change to cross-positions only Shakuras Plateau might have been a bit jarring but shouldn't be the scapegoat for White-Ra's scouting mishap. Even if his probe had arrived at the proper spawn location just a little earlier, he still would have been far too behind to respond. MC's first zealot was just about half done with the second gate barely 10 in-game seconds from completing right when his probe reached the top-left position. Even if he had dropped another gate and pulled probes off the line, White-Ra would eventually have 1 zealot to 3. I'm not going to argue about whether White-Ra knew about the cross spawns or if he simply forgot, but in the position he was in, it would have been so difficult to come out on top.
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MC's tweet confirms that it was a calculated strategy. Call it a coinflip all you want, but if you do call it that, then you'd have to say that MC was using a pretty damn biased coin. He had plenty of evidence from WhiteRa's playstyle to back up his decision, so he went for it. At this point, haters are only banking on semantics (the word "coinflip" in particular) and petty technicalities to put down MC's play.
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Note: "Standard play" will counter cheese correctly. However, never for a moment forget that White-ra's opener is NOT Standard. He get's an advantage by skipping the zealot.
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scouting ain't free; it costs minerals. not scouting is either you being greedy or being stupid. opponents are entitled to take advantage of that. you see plenty of pro players looking for proxies and stuff.
maybe he didn't want to 4 gate and hear dumb comments from whitera.
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On April 14 2011 14:55 kawaiiryuko wrote:
To bring poker terminology into this, the move was +EV because he knew White-Ra's patterns. It meant that it wasn't a "coinflip" (which implies that there's a 50% chance of winning or losing) but that it was a controlled risk (i.e.: he had a 75% (or greater than 50% in any case) chance of winning) and therefore, is a +EV move.
PvP straight up /is/ a coinflip though. So, if you pose the question to every pro-protoss gamer and tell them that there's a $15,000 prize but they can have either a 50% of winning it or a higher than 50% of winning it, almost every pro, I would think, would take the <50% route. That's just playing smart.
honestly i don't know why he didn't just 4gate, except he didn't want more whining from "fans." what is is 4 gate pvp win percentage? 80%+?
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On April 14 2011 15:06 ScythedBlade wrote:
Note: "Standard play" will counter cheese correctly. However, never for a moment forget that White-ra's opener is NOT Standard. He get's an advantage by skipping the zealot.
Please, getting a Zealot first or not doesn't change the outcome at all. It's just about scouting.
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motbob you are such a hero
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I believe a win is a win... a proper scout and unpredictable build order will have not lead to this hooha.
MC Hwaiting...
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I'm more impressed with MC doing the proxy 2gate than a 4gate because even though he likely would've won a 4gate, he read White-Ra's build and abused a weakness in it. That's the mark of a true champion.
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omg so epic. MC is such a boss.
Great casting as well, apollo + dimaga are as good as any pair of casters out there. I really think I like apollo casting a ton, him + day9 was assume too.
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On April 14 2011 16:25 tarath wrote:
omg so epic. MC is such a boss.
Great casting as well, apollo + dimaga are as good as any pair of casters out there. I really think I like apollo, him + day9 was assume too.
not dimaga. demuslim
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On April 14 2011 16:27 Seronei wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 16:25 tarath wrote:
omg so epic. MC is such a boss.
Great casting as well, apollo + dimaga are as good as any pair of casters out there. I really think I like apollo, him + day9 was assume too. not dimaga. demuslim
Hah, I just finished watching the finals and am too excited lol, I meant demuslim of course.
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Dimaga is not bad either 
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Can anyone transcribe what MC said in the final interview? I am having a tough time understanding him.
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will dreamhack release replays? or only vods 
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On April 14 2011 14:24 wxwx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:08 Stanlot wrote:On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does. What? That is exactly not what a coinflip is. Anyone with a pro's level of game sense would have seen White-Ra doing the same build four times in a row. MC had reasonable belief that White-Ra would not deviate in the 5th game and he didn't. Had it been a blind 2 gate proxy on the first game against someone he had never played, then I would agree that it was risky move, but he had 4 games to notice White-Ra's general style of play in addition to their recent TSL games. MC did not blindly pull a cheesy build. White-Ra is an amazing player and one of my favorites but it's his fault and nobody else's that he played predictably and lost the ace match because of it. Hilarious that some people are believing MC's explanation. When you proxygate like that, you don't lose when your opponent makes a zealot after core. You lose when your opponent scouts it. And this is MC leaving the game to luck. Luck was on his side because White-Ra did not know that the 3p spawn map became a 2p spawn map. I will explain it further for some who are still confused... If you proxy gate, and your opponent makes a zealot, it doesn't matter! He spent money on gas/cybercore while you are pumping zealots in his base out of 2 gateways. You still win. Do you see Proxy-gates on 4p maps such as Lost temple, tal'darim, terminus RE? No! How can you proxy gate if you don't know where your opponent spawns? This is the reason White-Ra lost the game. He thought a proxy-gate was outside the realm of possibility! He even checked the empty spawn with his scouting probe, not knowing this map had been edited to become a 2p map!
Well then, WhiteRa thought wrong. Who's fault is that? lol
Just for the record, I seriously doubt WhiteRa would've changed up his build or his scouting pattern if he had known the map was a fixed spawn. I mean, he's done it four times in a row in previous games, so why change now? MC played the game as it's designed to do, which is to play the strategy that gives you the best chance of winning, period.
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EPT
