|
On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:
I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it.
Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip.
Translation: I don't care that MC figured he had a 95% chance of winning based on the fact that white-ra did the same opening 4 games in a row, because in my world, coinflips have 95:5 odds.
Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does.
TSL_Rain got where he got on the strength of one build, performed over and over again. Even then, he deserved to get where he got because people just didn't counter it effectively, and that's on them. In the end, counters were formulated, Rain plummeted because he was a one trick pony, and SC2 became a more robust and well rounded game for it, with MORE strategies and MORE effective counters. They may not have been the most entertaining games but SC2 as a whole is better for having Rain.
Even still, MC is nothing at all like Rain. MC has more builds in his pocket than probably anyone but MVP, and has shown time and time again his excellent micro, his ability to exploit timings, his excellent game sense, and his ability to macro. Rain won almost all his later games in season 3 with the same exact build. MC won all his games against white-ra with completely different builds. Rain's cheese was strong based on the fact that an effective, economical counter (at the time) had yet to evolve, whereas MC's proxy 2 gate is easily counterable, but was a brilliant choice in this instance because it played perfectly off of the weaknesses in White-ra's risky and greedy opening, which he did every game for 4 games prior.
If the only thing in SC that excites you is long 30 minute macro games, more power to you. I suggest playing the novice maps in custom games. I, for one, was on the edge of my seat for the rest of the game when I realized what MC was pulling, and how perfect it was in that situation, given White-ra's openings in previous games. Don't confuse other's disappointment at their favorite getting eliminated with a lack of excitement for the game and the strategy in general.
|
People start arguing "even MC is fliping a coin with 90% winning chance he still flipcoin/gambling blindly", then you should go and study some probability class, statistic class or finance class.
And another group of people arguing MC winning a game without micro/macro with white-ra is bad, they are simple suggesting starcraft2 should REMOVE SHADOW in the game. because what they think is that macro/micro is what the game all about.
|
On April 14 2011 22:55 jcarlson08 wrote:
Translation: I don't care that MC figured he had a 95% chance of winning based on the fact that white-ra did the same opening 4 games in a row, because in my world, coinflips have 95:5 odds.
lol how is information based on only 4 games gives you 95% chance? I think this proxy build was still very risky. But White-Ra, on the other hand, had risky decisions too, like sending late scout, and not building first zealot. MC outsmarted White-Ra in those gambles, and won. Good job, MC! Better luck next time, White-Ra! 
|
oGsMC on Twitter: 누가 영어로 해석해서 나를 욕하는 외국인에게 보여줬으면 좋겠다 화이트라는 5판연속같은빌드를 했고 난 그 빌드의 카운터빌드를 했을뿐인데 그걸 가지고 치즈라니 질럿 안뽑고 시작하니까 전진게이트를 하지... 천칠백만원짜리 게임인데 확신이있으니깐 한거고
Translation: I hope someone can translate this and show it to non-koreans that are trolling about me. Whitera did the same build 5 times and I just countered it and what is cheese about that? he doesnt get the first zealot and I of course do proxy gate.. it was a 15000$ game and I did it because I was certain of it.
|
On April 15 2011 00:32 jspark703 wrote:
oGsMC on Twitter: 누가 영어로 해석해서 나를 욕하는 외국인에게 보여줬으면 좋겠다 화이트라는 5판연속같은빌드를 했고 난 그 빌드의 카운터빌드를 했을뿐인데 그걸 가지고 치즈라니 질럿 안뽑고 시작하니까 전진게이트를 하지... 천칠백만원짜리 게임인데 확신이있으니깐 한거고
Translation: I hope someone can translate this and show it to non-koreans that are trolling about me. Whitera did the same build 5 times and I just countered it and what is cheese about that? he doesnt get the first zealot and I of course do proxy gate.. it was a 15000$ game and I did it because I was certain of it.
Good man. Ofcourse it wasn't the greatest end to the finals but when someone does cheese it's the defenders game to lose. White-ra didn't scout enough and had a build that wasn't safe against proxy gates so he lost, simple as that.
|
On April 15 2011 00:32 jspark703 wrote:
oGsMC on Twitter: 누가 영어로 해석해서 나를 욕하는 외국인에게 보여줬으면 좋겠다 화이트라는 5판연속같은빌드를 했고 난 그 빌드의 카운터빌드를 했을뿐인데 그걸 가지고 치즈라니 질럿 안뽑고 시작하니까 전진게이트를 하지... 천칠백만원짜리 게임인데 확신이있으니깐 한거고
Translation: I hope someone can translate this and show it to non-koreans that are trolling about me. Whitera did the same build 5 times and I just countered it and what is cheese about that? he doesnt get the first zealot and I of course do proxy gate.. it was a 15000$ game and I did it because I was certain of it.
Yeah, exactly, it was game for 15k $$, so even if WhiteRa said that he doesnt care about money, i think it was just for public, every player cares of that amout of money.
|
On April 14 2011 23:46 CokaOath wrote:
People start arguing "even MC is fliping a coin with 90% winning chance he still flipcoin/gambling blindly", then you should go and study some probability class, statistic class or finance class.
And another group of people arguing MC winning a game without micro/macro with white-ra is bad, they are simple suggesting starcraft2 should REMOVE SHADOW in the game. because what they think is that macro/micro is what the game all about.
I think you need to learn how not to take exaggerated terms to be literal in meaning.
The chance was not 90% but it was very high because white ra (him and mc my fav players along with mvp and the gracken) doesn't build a zealot early plus he scouts late.
So the CONDITIONAL probability that a proxy would be successful if the probe wasn't scouted coming UP the ramp would be pretty damn high since you know white ra scouts late plus he doesn't make an initial zealot.
|
If I were MC I would dance around in front of the whiners' face with $15,000 hanging on my neck.
|
what we get out of this event=
Demuslim should cast more. hes really entertaining/funny/ knows a lot
|
On April 15 2011 00:50 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 00:32 jspark703 wrote:
oGsMC on Twitter: 누가 영어로 해석해서 나를 욕하는 외국인에게 보여줬으면 좋겠다 화이트라는 5판연속같은빌드를 했고 난 그 빌드의 카운터빌드를 했을뿐인데 그걸 가지고 치즈라니 질럿 안뽑고 시작하니까 전진게이트를 하지... 천칠백만원짜리 게임인데 확신이있으니깐 한거고
Translation: I hope someone can translate this and show it to non-koreans that are trolling about me. Whitera did the same build 5 times and I just countered it and what is cheese about that? he doesnt get the first zealot and I of course do proxy gate.. it was a 15000$ game and I did it because I was certain of it. Good man. Ofcourse it wasn't the greatest end to the finals but when someone does cheese it's the defenders game to lose. White-ra didn't scout enough and had a build that wasn't safe against proxy gates so he lost, simple as that.
I think it was a great end to the tournament. MC found the perfect strategy to beat White-Ra. It was very well thought through
|
Apparently WhiteRa forgot or didnt know that they can only spawn cross positions and its essentially a 2p map, if he knew it from the start he could have scouted his base for proxies, he thought it its a 3p map where no one will proxy you.
|
On April 14 2011 14:18 nokz88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does. Oh god, you and your fellow hater specimen absolutely sicken me to no end. Do yourself a favor and read this: Introducing...the SCRUBI hope this piece of brillance will enlighten your narrow mind. Honor? Pride? Real game? Coin flip? Scrubs love these terms I see...
What you and your trolling, arrogant and prideful kin do not understand is that I do not care if it was legitable or not. That's my whole godamn point; I am entitled to an emotional feeling of disgust to a shitty game ending a superb tournament. Nobody is arguing that it was valid or not, MC did it and he won, that's enough of an answer to that godamn argument, what I, and alot of people feel, is that it was still a boring match and a dull coinflip move from MC to do it. Calculated as it was, it was still based alot on hoping White-Ra wouldn't scout.
Stop with your anti-trolling which is even worse than the real trolls because you pride yourself in "knowing better" yet you troll even worse yourself.
I paid to be there, I experienced the games, and I am part of the system that enables MC to do what he loves to do and thus I am entitled to think it was a bad move since it makes me... the BUYER less inclined to pay for e-sports. Whilst 14 year olds like yourself carebear over the internet as if MC had asked you to defend him; he doesn't need defending, he'd do it again and he'd be stupid if he didn't. I still think it was a shitty move.
|
As far as the last game is concerned;
1. MC didnt hack the game.
2. It was a mirror match-up.
Thats all anyone needs to know. It was not unfair, not imba, not OP, not anything but a good read and an effective strategy to WIN! Thats how professionals play.
Welcome to the world of SPORTS where the name of the game is winning, not entertaining whiny little snobs. (although preferably both).
Edit;
And if anyone think it was a coinflip, you simply dont understand metagaming. Dont ever start playing poker. Hint; If you want to be successful at higher levels, you play the player, not the game.
|
On April 15 2011 04:12 s031720 wrote:
As far as the last game is concerned;
1. MC didnt hack the game.
2. It was a mirror match-up.
Thats all anyone needs to know. It was not unfair, not imba, not OP, not anything but a good read and an effective strategy to WIN! Thats how professionals play.
Welcome to the world of SPORTS where the name of the game is winning, not entertaining whiny little snobs. (although preferably both).
Edit;
And if anyone think it was a coinflip, you simply dont understand metagaming. Dont ever start playing poker. Hint; If you want to be successful at higher levels, you play the player, not the game.
Ok I'm so close on snapping because I don't get people like the one above.
What person in his right mind does not know that Poker, Sports and Starcraft II is all about calculated risks? Ofcourse everyone knows this, nobody is arguing it. There are bigger and lesser calculated risks, and what makes me dislike the last game is that MC thought the risk of White-Ra scouting his cheese and winning outright was lesser than if MC just played the game outright and straightforward.
He knew this and he did it and he won.
Yes. We know. Shut up about it.
That does still make me less inclined to liking MC, it makes me less inclined to PAY for events.
We all know it's part of the game. We are still entitled to our own godamn opinions and stop telling everyone who thinks differently they are not entitled to their opinion.
I paid for the event in difference to 99% of you anti-trolls so I am actually entitled to give feedback asmuch as I godamn wish.
What's with this attitude of people going: "Rofle kids think there's 'honour or deserving' in games there isn't lol it's about winning rofle" yeah and it's also about godamn entertainment. If it isn't entertaining then people wont buy it and it's easy defending these things, players and esports when you're not paying for it but stop kidding yourselves: Capitalism is all about demand and nobody would demand to much cheesy games. Yes it was just 1 game and yeah it's to be expected but it's you people who made this discussion psudo-philosophical.
It will happen again, nobody argues that, but I can still think it was a bad move and nobody has the godamn right or power to tell me I should think otherwise just as I won't tell you people your points are not valid: I just don't agree.
Now please stop with these black and white arguments as if a person did not love that MC did what he did that person hates esports, bunnies and the world.
|
I don't think anything MC did was more cheesy than white-ra. White-ra was attempting to get ahead by being greedy and skipping a zealot. MC punished him for it. If players can't punish others for being greedy then everygame would be 15cc, 3 hatch before pool, and 14 nexus.
|
On April 15 2011 04:24 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:12 s031720 wrote:
As far as the last game is concerned;
1. MC didnt hack the game.
2. It was a mirror match-up.
Thats all anyone needs to know. It was not unfair, not imba, not OP, not anything but a good read and an effective strategy to WIN! Thats how professionals play.
Welcome to the world of SPORTS where the name of the game is winning, not entertaining whiny little snobs. (although preferably both).
Edit;
And if anyone think it was a coinflip, you simply dont understand metagaming. Dont ever start playing poker. Hint; If you want to be successful at higher levels, you play the player, not the game. Ok I'm so close on snapping because I don't get people like the one above. What person in his right mind does not know that Poker, Sports and Starcraft II is all about calculated risks? Ofcourse everyone knows this, nobody is arguing it. There are bigger and lesser calculated risks, and what makes me dislike the last game is that MC thought the risk of White-Ra scouting his cheese and winning outright was lesser than if MC just played the game outright and straightforward. He knew this and he did it and he won. Yes. We know. Shut up about it. That does still make me less inclined to liking MC, it makes me less inclined to PAY for events. We all know it's part of the game. We are still entitled to our own godamn opinions and stop telling everyone who thinks differently they are not entitled to their opinion. I paid for the event in difference to 99% of you anti-trolls so I am actually entitled to give feedback asmuch as I godamn wish. What's with this attitude of people going: "Rofle kids think there's 'honour or deserving' in games there isn't lol it's about winning rofle" yeah and it's also about godamn entertainment. If it isn't entertaining then people wont buy it and it's easy defending these things, players and esports when you're not paying for it but stop kidding yourselves: Capitalism is all about demand and nobody would demand to much cheesy games. Yes it was just 1 game and yeah it's to be expected but it's you people who made this discussion psudo-philosophical. It will happen again, nobody argues that, but I can still think it was a bad move and nobody has the godamn right or power to tell me I should think otherwise just as I won't tell you people your points are not valid: I just don't agree. Now please stop with these black and white arguments as if a person did not love that MC did what he did that person hates esports, bunnies and the world.
You're certainly welcome to express your opinion. But you must also expect that your opinion will not change, and should not change, what MC did. MC should not play a certain way just to satisfy your entertainment, especially when it comes down the line.
In his opinion, he knew he would be able to punish White-Ra. He believed that, it paid off, tons of people agree after seeing white-ra do the same build in 5 games. To me (and I'd hope the majority of people, but that's expecting too much), the strategical importance of punishing the same opening is entertaining.
Can MC beat White-ra in a standard match? Considering that 4-gate is standard, and MC consistently beats White-ra with his 4-gate, I wouldn't have doubt he'd have won with a 4gate. Tons of people would still complain about it, of course.
|
On April 15 2011 04:24 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:12 s031720 wrote:
As far as the last game is concerned;
1. MC didnt hack the game.
2. It was a mirror match-up.
Thats all anyone needs to know. It was not unfair, not imba, not OP, not anything but a good read and an effective strategy to WIN! Thats how professionals play.
Welcome to the world of SPORTS where the name of the game is winning, not entertaining whiny little snobs. (although preferably both).
Edit;
And if anyone think it was a coinflip, you simply dont understand metagaming. Dont ever start playing poker. Hint; If you want to be successful at higher levels, you play the player, not the game. Ok I'm so close on snapping because I don't get people like the one above. What person in his right mind does not know that Poker, Sports and Starcraft II is all about calculated risks? Ofcourse everyone knows this, nobody is arguing it. There are bigger and lesser calculated risks, and what makes me dislike the last game is that MC thought the risk of White-Ra scouting his cheese and winning outright was lesser than if MC just played the game outright and straightforward. He knew this and he did it and he won. Yes. We know. Shut up about it. That does still make me less inclined to liking MC, it makes me less inclined to PAY for events. We all know it's part of the game. We are still entitled to our own godamn opinions and stop telling everyone who thinks differently they are not entitled to their opinion. I paid for the event in difference to 99% of you anti-trolls so I am actually entitled to give feedback asmuch as I godamn wish. What's with this attitude of people going: "Rofle kids think there's 'honour or deserving' in games there isn't lol it's about winning rofle" yeah and it's also about godamn entertainment. If it isn't entertaining then people wont buy it and it's easy defending these things, players and esports when you're not paying for it but stop kidding yourselves: Capitalism is all about demand and nobody would demand to much cheesy games. Yes it was just 1 game and yeah it's to be expected but it's you people who made this discussion psudo-philosophical. It will happen again, nobody argues that, but I can still think it was a bad move and nobody has the godamn right or power to tell me I should think otherwise just as I won't tell you people your points are not valid: I just don't agree. Now please stop with these black and white arguments as if a person did not love that MC did what he did that person hates esports, bunnies and the world.
You're only complaining because MC won. You don't like him because he's Korean. If White ra won using the same tactics as MC, you would be jumping for joy.
|
On April 15 2011 02:17 InteGrated wrote:
what we get out of this event=
Demuslim should cast more. hes really entertaining/funny/ knows a lot
I second this, I really enjoyed DeMuslim's casting
|
On April 15 2011 04:10 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2011 14:18 nokz88 wrote:On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does. Oh god, you and your fellow hater specimen absolutely sicken me to no end. Do yourself a favor and read this: Introducing...the SCRUBI hope this piece of brillance will enlighten your narrow mind. Honor? Pride? Real game? Coin flip? Scrubs love these terms I see... What you and your trolling, arrogant and prideful kin do not understand is that I do not care if it was legitable or not. That's my whole godamn point; I am entitled to an emotional feeling of disgust to a shitty game ending a superb tournament. Nobody is arguing that it was valid or not, MC did it and he won, that's enough of an answer to that godamn argument, what I, and alot of people feel, is that it was still a boring match and a dull coinflip move from MC to do it. Calculated as it was, it was still based alot on hoping White-Ra wouldn't scout. Stop with your anti-trolling which is even worse than the real trolls because you pride yourself in "knowing better" yet you troll even worse yourself. I paid to be there, I experienced the games, and I am part of the system that enables MC to do what he loves to do and thus I am entitled to think it was a bad move since it makes me... the BUYER less inclined to pay for e-sports. Whilst 14 year olds like yourself carebear over the internet as if MC had asked you to defend him; he doesn't need defending, he'd do it again and he'd be stupid if he didn't. I still think it was a shitty move.
do you honestly think progamers should actually change up their gameplay and do things they normally wouldn't do in order to "entertain" spectators when there is thousands of dollars on the line? While YOU might think it's "sooo boring" i actually prefer to watch people try their hardest and play to win bar none... it's part of the fun. For me the entertainment factor comes from watching two extremely good players trying their hardest to beat each other no matter what the cost.. the fact that you think EVERY game (u know there were 4 other games right?) should be this huge entertaining macro game because your paying like $5 or whatever for a stream is laughable.. And don't just assume cheese games are boring to everyone, I think cheese can be very exciting and I'm sure a lot of other people do also.
A good example is Huk's mothership rush at MLG. While it could be considered "entertaining" (which is obviously why he did it) it actually ruined the series for me because it was obvious HuK wasn't trying his hardest to win. So what's the point. It takes the competitive spirit out of it. While I'm sure a lot of people were like "ooooh looook at the pretty mothership sooo entertaining!!" the fact is it made a joke out of the series, and if all progamers did stuff like that it would ruin progaming.
|
On April 15 2011 04:40 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:10 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 14:18 nokz88 wrote:On April 14 2011 13:45 Krehlmar wrote:On April 14 2011 13:11 Ocedic wrote:On April 14 2011 03:31 Krehlmar wrote:
I don't care what anyone says.
MC did a bullshit move at the end, he was afraid of fighting White-Ra and resorted to cheese instead of doing a controllable game.
Pure bullshit. You don't care what anyone says because you're wrong. Stop whining, MC won fair and square. Unless you think punishing the same build 5 consecutive times in a row is 'bullshit,' in which case I don't know what to tell you. I recognize him doing it to win, what is it people don't get about this: Hardly anyone argues he did it in a controlled and tactical fashion. I still think it's an insult to a fellow progamer that you claim you can beat in a skilled fashion and then just circumvent it. Had MC had some honor or pride he'd had a real game versus White-Ra not a coin flip. It might've been a controlled and anticipated coinflip but it was still a damned coinflip. Don't blame him for doing whatever it takes to win, but in doing so he's treading the same path as TSL_Rain: It produces boring games and as a spectator what I want is good and exciting games. Having the last game of an awesome tournaments awesome finals be a 3 minute coinflip is not what I as a spectator want and I honestly doupt anyone does. Oh god, you and your fellow hater specimen absolutely sicken me to no end. Do yourself a favor and read this: Introducing...the SCRUBI hope this piece of brillance will enlighten your narrow mind. Honor? Pride? Real game? Coin flip? Scrubs love these terms I see... What you and your trolling, arrogant and prideful kin do not understand is that I do not care if it was legitable or not. That's my whole godamn point; I am entitled to an emotional feeling of disgust to a shitty game ending a superb tournament. Nobody is arguing that it was valid or not, MC did it and he won, that's enough of an answer to that godamn argument, what I, and alot of people feel, is that it was still a boring match and a dull coinflip move from MC to do it. Calculated as it was, it was still based alot on hoping White-Ra wouldn't scout. Stop with your anti-trolling which is even worse than the real trolls because you pride yourself in "knowing better" yet you troll even worse yourself. I paid to be there, I experienced the games, and I am part of the system that enables MC to do what he loves to do and thus I am entitled to think it was a bad move since it makes me... the BUYER less inclined to pay for e-sports. Whilst 14 year olds like yourself carebear over the internet as if MC had asked you to defend him; he doesn't need defending, he'd do it again and he'd be stupid if he didn't. I still think it was a shitty move. do you honestly think progamers should actually change up their gameplay and do things they normally wouldn't do in order to "entertain" spectators when there is thousands of dollars on the line? While YOU might think it's "sooo boring" i actually prefer to watch people try their hardest and play to win bar none... it's part of the fun. For me the entertainment factor comes from watching two extremely good players trying their hardest to beat each other no matter what the cost.. the fact that you think EVERY game (u know there were 4 other games right?) should be this huge entertaining macro game because your paying like $5 or whatever for a stream is laughable.. And don't just assume cheese games are boring to everyone, I think cheese can be very exciting and I'm sure a lot of other people do also.
I'm not a fan of cheese, but when there is serious money on the line, anything goes. But that doesn't even apply here, MC didn't even cheese, it's White ra's fault for being so predictable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
