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On April 15 2011 05:03 s031720 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 04:24 Krehlmar wrote:On April 15 2011 04:12 s031720 wrote:
As far as the last game is concerned;
1. MC didnt hack the game.
2. It was a mirror match-up.
Thats all anyone needs to know. It was not unfair, not imba, not OP, not anything but a good read and an effective strategy to WIN! Thats how professionals play.
Welcome to the world of SPORTS where the name of the game is winning, not entertaining whiny little snobs. (although preferably both).
Edit;
And if anyone think it was a coinflip, you simply dont understand metagaming. Dont ever start playing poker. Hint; If you want to be successful at higher levels, you play the player, not the game. Ok I'm so close on snapping because I don't get people like the one above. What person in his right mind does not know that Poker, Sports and Starcraft II is all about calculated risks? Ofcourse everyone knows this, nobody is arguing it. There are bigger and lesser calculated risks, and what makes me dislike the last game is that MC thought the risk of White-Ra scouting his cheese and winning outright was lesser than if MC just played the game outright and straightforward. He knew this and he did it and he won. Yes. We know. Shut up about it. That does still make me less inclined to liking MC, it makes me less inclined to PAY for events. We all know it's part of the game. We are still entitled to our own godamn opinions and stop telling everyone who thinks differently they are not entitled to their opinion. I paid for the event in difference to 99% of you anti-trolls so I am actually entitled to give feedback asmuch as I godamn wish. What's with this attitude of people going: "Rofle kids think there's 'honour or deserving' in games there isn't lol it's about winning rofle" yeah and it's also about godamn entertainment. If it isn't entertaining then people wont buy it and it's easy defending these things, players and esports when you're not paying for it but stop kidding yourselves: Capitalism is all about demand and nobody would demand to much cheesy games. Yes it was just 1 game and yeah it's to be expected but it's you people who made this discussion psudo-philosophical. It will happen again, nobody argues that, but I can still think it was a bad move and nobody has the godamn right or power to tell me I should think otherwise just as I won't tell you people your points are not valid: I just don't agree. Now please stop with these black and white arguments as if a person did not love that MC did what he did that person hates esports, bunnies and the world. I will use CAPS. I feel ENTITLED to it. My other post was not directed to you. This one is. Feel free to snap.IDont think anyone cares more about how you feel just because you payed to watch. You are just one person. You are not the ONLY one entitled to have an opinion, whether you payed entrance fee to that event or not. It is not worth more. Its not worth less. Again, you are just one person. You have expressed your opinion. Several times. Now let others express theirs. As for paying for ESPORTS; You SHOULD have known SC2 enough by now that in a set of games, there WILL probably be cheese, there SHOULD probably be cheese if the players are experienced enough to change up their playstyle. Knowing this you still CHOOSE to pay, and Im assuming you probably hade a pretty good time for those 100SEK. You maye feel you are ENTITLED to complain about it; I may disagree. But im not so interested in that. Im more interested in the PRINCIPLE that players should play to ENTERTAIN rather than to WIN because otherwise noone would pay to watch; or you are letting the viewers down. I dont agree. The players are not there for the viewers, they are there for themselves and their team. The audience are there for the players. The fact that they pay to watch the game does not give them right to make demands on HOW the game should be played other than to be kept within the rules. In soccer greece won the European championshop with a 4-5-1 format and counters. Still we loved to watch, not because the games where ENTERTAINING, because it was a great STORY, the underdog taking on the soccer-elite of Europe. People payed to watch; and I am pretty sure that that tournament did not deter them from paying to watch in the future. My point is; In the world of proffessional sports, you get respect by trying your hardest to win. SC2 is moving towards becoming an ESPORT, or may allready be one. Only when players play to WIN rather then to ENTERTAIN, SC2 will be regarded as a sport; and while the scene might loose some audience who prefer the wrestlingscene-like approach where its more about show than sport, it will gain so many more viewers who just want to see the game beeing played aswell as it can be, players taking eachother on trying to overcome the other with any avaiable means possible. The MC/White-ra Set, including the fifth game, was well within the rules, and also well within the NORM of tournament gaming; cheesing once here and there is pretty standard. White-ra got punished for consistently playing risky starters; a lesson hopefully well learned. The only thing I would agree with you on is that it was an anticlimax. Ofcourse it was. That happens in the world of sports. Often. That does not make it wrong. It does not make you entitled, for instance, to get your money back just because your favourite team lost 0-4. The risk of anticlimax but also the chance of epic unexpected greatness is what makes sports awesome to watch. I find complaining about it petty and immature. But thats just me and my opinion. Im just one person. Just like you. But the diffrence between you and me is that I would GLADLY pay to see my favourite players trying their best in competition with others to win tournaments. You may not. I think that is YOUR loss, not the players, not the SC-scene and not mine. But thats just my opinion. Ninja-edited for more clarity.
stop arguing people. I'll settle this with a great short point iNcontrol made on SOTG. Competitors play to win and winning is the most important to them. Viewers only care about entertainment and would like to see good games. Both points are reasonable and understandable. So you either answer make posts as a player or as a viewer, but theres no need to get into heated argument's about this...
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thanks for keeping this updated! <3
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For someone coming here looking for vods, its kinda lame to have spoilers in the OP 
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On April 15 2011 13:19 usethis2 wrote:
I didn't watch the dreamhack and accidently clicked into this thread so I'm making comments on the last few pages. I think you guys should respect the others' opinions as much as you respect the players' desire to win. If SC2 is going to become an eSport, it needs more than simply who wins/loses. Think of which sports you watch and which you don't (and why). When every other Terran was marine/scv rushing for 5 min games in GSL 3, I stopped watching GSL for a while. And guess what, it turned out I wasn't alone. The viewership of GSL dropped drastically and there was even a concern whether SC2 is dying in Korea. GSL, hot on the heels, changed the maps and made adjustment on existing maps, and Code A/B prelims were all played on macro maps for the following seasons.
Sure the players play to win, but the viewers tune in and pay for entertainment. If games stop being entertaining SC2 will simply die as an eSport. (And it's one of the biggest reasons I care about the balance, despite that I don't have any vested interest in who wins what)
then don't blame the players, blame the fucking game.
if the game makes continuous cheesing a viable strategy, there's something wrong with the game. why do you think we see long macro games in sc1? b/c players want to entertain? no it's because the game does not reward cheeses as often as sc2. cheese in sc1 is way too risky. and plus, sc1 doesn't have proxy pylon/warpgates so there's obviously going to be less cheesing.
basically my point is, if cheese is such a powerful strategy, then there's something wrong with the game so don't blame players for cheesing.
on the other hand, MC did not abuse cheese. White-RA was dumb enough to go with the same build 5 times so obviously MC knew that his cheese was going to succeed with a very high probability.
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My opinion on the ace match is that it wasn't very entertaining for me.
It felt like going to a boxing match only to have one competitor punch the other out after the bell rings while the other guy was bowing/shaking hands. Yes, it is impressive to accomplish such a feat that takes advantage of the other guy's weakness, but it is boring for the spectators. Yes, it is the fault for the knocked out guy for not looking out for the early punch. But that's part of his style. Either way the first 4 games were very entertaining, if albeit short, and they both were outstanding. Congrats to MC for winning.
I would also like to express my thanks for the players, crew, and Dreamhack for hosting such a great event. The production was very good and the games very entertaining.
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On April 15 2011 14:59 Shanlan wrote:
My opinion on the ace match is that it wasn't very entertaining for me.
It felt like going to a boxing match only to have one competitor punch the other out after the bell rings while the other guy was bowing/shaking hands. Yes, it is impressive to accomplish such a feat that takes advantage of the other guy's weakness, but it is boring for the spectators. Yes, it is the fault for the knocked out guy for not looking out for the early punch. But that's part of his style. Either way the first 4 games were very entertaining, if albeit short, and they both were outstanding. Congrats to MC for winning.
I would also like to express my thanks for the players, crew, and Dreamhack for hosting such a great event. The production was very good and the games very entertaining.
This was more like going "paper" against a guy who always goes rock.
Opponent risks a late scout for macro advantage four times in a row? Punish him with cheese.
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man these interpreters are so bad. marcus only translates half of what mc says, which completely warps the meaning sometimes. john from gomtv does the same thing a lot of times
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On April 15 2011 16:36 kazie wrote:
man these interpreters are so bad. marcus only translates half of what mc says, which completely warps the meaning sometimes. john from gomtv does the same thing a lot of times
Yes, having first hand access to a native Korean speaker, the translater for MC was horrible. Also noted for John missing good chucks of translation however he has gotten much better then originally.
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Finally sat down to watch some of this (tlo v idra series). What struck me as most awesome was the crowd interaction. You get the crowd cheering and reacting to all sorta of cool shit which honestly adds so much to the epicness of each game. NASL is kinda hamstrung here which is fine, so is TSL, but MLG can and hopefully will improve on this in order to capture what is the greatest, most legit hype you can get - a live crowd going nuts for sick play. GSL suffers from this a bit, with the small studio crowds. Can't remember offhand what the crowd noise was like for the most recent final. It was a good crowd (ditto the recent world champ final) but i don't remember how well the crowd noise came across on stream/vods.
Really like this setup, that's for sure. Three thumbs up.
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On April 15 2011 18:11 Goibon wrote:
Finally sat down to watch some of this (tlo v idra series). What struck me as most awesome was the crowd interaction. You get the crowd cheering and reacting to all sorta of cool shit which honestly adds so much to the epicness of each game. NASL is kinda hamstrung here which is fine, so is TSL, but MLG can and hopefully will improve on this in order to capture what is the greatest, most legit hype you can get - a live crowd going nuts for sick play. GSL suffers from this a bit, with the small studio crowds. Can't remember offhand what the crowd noise was like for the most recent final. It was a good crowd (ditto the recent world champ final) but i don't remember how well the crowd noise came across on stream/vods.
Really like this setup, that's for sure. Three thumbs up.
I was there and the noise when Sjow won over huk was so loud. The feeling was awesome and the stream didnt catch any of the feeling imo :p
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On April 15 2011 14:45 hmmm... wrote:
if the game makes continuous cheesing a viable strategy, there's something wrong with the game.
I've never seen a proxy 2-gate in a pro game. I've seen a 6-pool 3 times ( 2 Idra, 1 July ) and seen it work once ( July on Scrap Station vs Protoss). I've seen quite a bit more Terran proxies, but often they can transition out especially since their building fly.
Pros need to mix up their scouting. They don't have to send an early scout every game, but there is an optimal percentage depending on the match-up to increase the riskiness to your opponent to the point you welcome the cheese because it will have a sufficiently low probability of working where your win rate would be better than a standard game.
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On April 15 2011 13:19 usethis2 wrote:
I didn't watch the dreamhack and accidently clicked into this thread so I'm making comments on the last few pages. I think you guys should respect the others' opinions as much as you respect the players' desire to win. If SC2 is going to become an eSport, it needs more than simply who wins/loses. Think of which sports you watch and which you don't (and why). When every other Terran was marine/scv rushing for 5 min games in GSL 3, I stopped watching GSL for a while. And guess what, it turned out I wasn't alone. The viewership of GSL dropped drastically and there was even a concern whether SC2 is dying in Korea. GSL, hot on the heels, changed the maps and made adjustment on existing maps, and Code A/B prelims were all played on macro maps for the following seasons.
Sure the players play to win, but the viewers tune in and pay for entertainment. If games stop being entertaining SC2 will simply die as an eSport. (And it's one of the biggest reasons I care about the balance, despite that I don't have any vested interest in who wins what)
having long drawn out macro games where every pvp is 5 colossus max 200 gateway units does not seem fun to me. What was very exciting as a spectator was when MC outsmarted White-ra by doing a proxy 2 gate on the last game. It was a ballsy move when both were 2-2 deadlocked and it could definately have ended badly for mc but he took that risk. Indeed, it was a calculated risk because MC knew white-ra scouted late and doesn't deviate from his builds. White ra also played great with that genius proxy pylon zealot attack in the first game so the series was amazing. People with short memories should realise that MC got cheesed by idra but he won because he scouted early. Early scouting prevents cheese. It's as simple as that. MC won becaue he knew there was a good chance white ra would do the same build he did in the previous 4 games so he made the relevant strategical decision to do a proxy. That proxy 2 gate cheese was genius strategical play (like michael chang's moonballs effort that won him the french open) that gave MC the deserved win.
Now people are confusing cheese being not entertaining and having no strategy. Fact is cheese is entertaining when performed with strategical reasoning behind it instead of let's say proxy gating every game on ladder. Some people hate cheese and don't find it entertaining which is fine, but the ones who say there is no strategy in cheese are deeply wrong. Cheese when played by progamers is a tactic used to throw the opponent off balance during a set match and to give the psychological upper hand to the cheesing progamer. It's basically saying
"ok i'm very unpredictable so you better not be like idra and macro up 3 bases because you NEVER know what strat i'm going..i could be doing cheese or doing macro and it will cost u minerals to scout in every game afterward my cheese game because i'm screwing with yr brain".
Cheese being entertaining is subjective but cheese being strategic is objective.
So deal with it.
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On April 15 2011 14:59 Shanlan wrote:
My opinion on the ace match is that it wasn't very entertaining for me.
It felt like going to a boxing match only to have one competitor punch the other out after the bell rings while the other guy was bowing/shaking hands. Yes, it is impressive to accomplish such a feat that takes advantage of the other guy's weakness, but it is boring for the spectators. Yes, it is the fault for the knocked out guy for not looking out for the early punch. But that's part of his style. Either way the first 4 games were very entertaining, if albeit short, and they both were outstanding. Congrats to MC for winning.
I would also like to express my thanks for the players, crew, and Dreamhack for hosting such a great event. The production was very good and the games very entertaining.
yeah...white-ra was probably setting up the keyboard and mouse while MC was building pylon at the time, huh..?
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Ever seen a basketball team waste all 24 seconds on the clock to run out the game? It's boring, but guess what- their going to win. I know at the time they were already winning unlike MC, but jesus, they play to win you haters need to shut the fuck up
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I just watched all the DreamHack vods and boy let me tell you THAT is what MLG should be like. Those guys have putting on the show down, the format, the excitement, the production value, and the games were all 10's in my book.
I think this is the best tournament I've seen yet.
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On April 15 2011 14:45 hmmm... wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2011 13:19 usethis2 wrote:
I didn't watch the dreamhack and accidently clicked into this thread so I'm making comments on the last few pages. I think you guys should respect the others' opinions as much as you respect the players' desire to win. If SC2 is going to become an eSport, it needs more than simply who wins/loses. Think of which sports you watch and which you don't (and why). When every other Terran was marine/scv rushing for 5 min games in GSL 3, I stopped watching GSL for a while. And guess what, it turned out I wasn't alone. The viewership of GSL dropped drastically and there was even a concern whether SC2 is dying in Korea. GSL, hot on the heels, changed the maps and made adjustment on existing maps, and Code A/B prelims were all played on macro maps for the following seasons.
Sure the players play to win, but the viewers tune in and pay for entertainment. If games stop being entertaining SC2 will simply die as an eSport. (And it's one of the biggest reasons I care about the balance, despite that I don't have any vested interest in who wins what) then don't blame the players, blame the fucking game. if the game makes continuous cheesing a viable strategy, there's something wrong with the game. why do you think we see long macro games in sc1? b/c players want to entertain? no it's because the game does not reward cheeses as often as sc2. cheese in sc1 is way too risky. and plus, sc1 doesn't have proxy pylon/warpgates so there's obviously going to be less cheesing. basically my point is, if cheese is such a powerful strategy, then there's something wrong with the game so don't blame players for cheesing. on the other hand, MC did not abuse cheese. White-RA was dumb enough to go with the same build 5 times so obviously MC knew that his cheese was going to succeed with a very high probability.
The part of your argument that is blatantly and horribly wrong, is that cheese is a viable strategy only if your opponent doesn't take minimal actions to prevent it. As in, scout your effin' base. Come on dudes, this is basic starcraft. It's kinda like when in football the goalkeeper stands too far away from the goal: The immediate response is to launch a really long range shot, directed towards the goal, which the goalie won't get since he's standing outside his box.
Not scouting your base is a basic mistake, one that MC read very well and abused. There's really no wrong in that. I understand that some viewers can not be happy, but the thing is, as someone put it a lot earlier, epic macro games aren't born from 2 players maxing out, then fighting a single huge clash, they are born from the standpoint that both players are trying to kill each other using everything they've got, but they can't do it.
SC2 top players NEED to become cheeseproof. In this case, it's white-ra's fault for not scouting his base, this much is obvious. MC played a smart cheese, a great tactical choice. And I'm sure that had he gotten scouted, he would have had a follow-up. In BW, many pros start up with rather cheesy strategies, which ALWAYS are held by their opponent, and are then followed up by pretty much constant aggression. This is what makes those matches so much fun, NOT that they don't use those strategies, since they do. Occasionally, it works too, but it's not that common, since players always take safety measures to prevent it.
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Are the replays going to be released from this tournament? I remember reading something in an OP by dreamhack that replays would be hosted in a separate thread. Is that still the case?
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On April 15 2011 14:29 R3demption wrote:
stop arguing people. I'll settle this with a great short point iNcontrol made on SOTG. Competitors play to win and winning is the most important to them. Viewers only care about entertainment and would like to see good games. Both points are reasonable and understandable. So you either answer make posts as a player or as a viewer, but theres no need to get into heated argument's about this...
Indeed. iNcontrol also said that when we, the viewers, impose our views over them, the players, we're just dumbasses.
And I don't disagree with that one bit. oGs.MC and any other player out there doesn't own us guys anything. They play to win. Those that play to please the crowd, well, they haven't won anything substantial recently, have they?
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edit: posted twice by accident, if someone can delete this that'd be great. thanks.
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The replays from DreamHack Sapphire AMD Championship: Stockholm Invitational is now released for download: Link
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EPT
