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On March 31 2011 06:56 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:54 Shocae wrote:On March 31 2011 06:51 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
I have no idea what games you're talking about. I don't base my opinion on a player, at this very moment, on games they played awhile ago. MVP played great a couple seasons ago, I loved watching him. Then he started to play worse. Less entertaining, so I don't look forward to him as much. And I don't see anything about a double standard in the slightest. I find 4 gating boring, so I find anyone using it less entertaining. And I'll like them less. It's that simple. If white-ra was 4 gating every game, I'd like him less too.. I found every game by Dimaga to be entertaining, thus I like him more now. And I found Nestea's play to be entertaining too, so I like him more also. I don't judge players based on if they win, it's how much I enjoy watching them. I'm a spectator, i don't give a crap about what you think is "best", I don't care which playstyle is "best", if it's not fun to watch why the hell would I like the player who does it? It would probably be more accurate to say you dislike San's PvP then, as his other matchups are fairly entertaining. Which may be what he was addressing. It's probably true. When i see San owning it up in a couple days against some terran, and not 4 gating, i'll like him more. Oh and I just remembered what Sen game he was talking about lol, I don't think San was actually trying, neither player played that great a game so I kinda ignored it. Didn't affect my opinion of either.
I really think that people should stop flaunting their ignorance.
Four gate is standard in PvP.
In literally every match up other than PvP, San goes for an econ based macro game, the origin of his nickname "The Wack-a-Mole Protoss", because he expands everywhere and even when he loses so much stuff, he just rebuilds it because he has so much stuff.
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On March 31 2011 06:34 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:29 Asha` wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage). Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =) Ah, ok. I stand corrected on my assessments of Dimaga's cheese. I was simply taking someone else's word for it because I didn't pay close enough attention to the games last night  Anyway, if Dimaga actually did that blindly, it only strengthens my point about the double standard I was complaining about earlier - risky play = huge fan, calculated, careful play = lose respect? Riiight.
Nestea does the same build zvz over and over again, Dimaga's choice wasn't very risky.
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I really feel like Dimaga is one of the best players in the world right now.
So what if he cheesed one game? All good players will throw in cheese if they think it'll secure a win. It's never good to be predictable. He also went on to simply outplay NesTea in the next match...
This is the day after beating July and MVP. The one game he played the day before, against MVP, that ended up getting disconnected - I swear that was some of the best zerg play I've ever seen. IdrA has nothing on Dimaga. The man is a beast. So impressed with his play, and I love his enthusiasm. Too many docile book-types, it's nice to see a fist-pumping martial-artist in the booth for once.
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On March 31 2011 06:26 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror... Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add). Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from.
sirlins a bit of a retard
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On March 31 2011 07:46 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:26 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror... Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add). Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from. sirlins a bit of a retard
hahah
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I think people don't really understand how standard 4gate is in high level Korean PvP. It's essentially the ONLY standard/reliable build for that matchup and while it sucks, it's pretty much the only way to play. At lower levels you can get away with 3gate robo, blink stalker rush, and all those other builds. However, as the skill level gets higher, 4gate also gets stronger to the point where its only consistent counter is another 4gate. Even the 3 stalker rush that's designed to counter 4gate can't counter it consistently.
If you watch the GSL PvPs, essentially every single game involves some variation of the 4gate. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is. It's kinda like in BW ZvZ where the only real strategy is lings into mass muta (obviously there's different approaches and recently there's been more depth in ZvZ but this is just a rough example). It may be unfortunate and/or boring and/or "skill less" but that's just the way it is.
San played PvP the way he (and pretty much every other high level Korean) always plays PvP. That's all there is to it. White-ra's reluctance to 4gate, while commendable, was unfortunately the wrong decision. It's like refusing to tech to mutas in BW ZvZ; it simply won't work. The only reason why White-ra's 3gate robo worked against MC during the Korea vs. World showmatch was because MC's 4gate was not a standard 4gate rush. MC opted to open with a passive (defensive) 4gate and transitioned into a 4gate blink stalker attack which gave White-ra enough time to get the proper units/tech out in order to counter MC's army and strategy.
Had White-ra decided to defensively 4gate, I'm very sure the games would've turned out differently. In fact, it's completely possible that they still would've been able to show "good games" since a 4gate v. 4gate can still get into the mid-late game PvP (which admittedly may not be much more interesting than early game PvP but w/e...). In short, White-ra made the wrong decision in not 4gating and in a game of decisions, it cost him the set.
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On March 31 2011 07:46 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:26 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror... Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add). Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from. sirlins a bit of a retard
I'd actually be interested in seeing your critique of that.
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I'm convinced Nestea lost game 3 because he was playing more army focused and less drone heavy all throughout the game because of what happened in game 2. He should of been aware of that mind game. The instant Nestea lost game 2 I thought "He's gonna go mass drones game 3" just because it made sense.
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On March 31 2011 07:56 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 07:46 IdrA wrote:On March 31 2011 06:26 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror... Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add). Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from. sirlins a bit of a retard I'd actually be interested in seeing your critique of that.
IdrA embodies the critique of that.
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On March 31 2011 07:41 Maenander wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:34 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:29 Asha` wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage). Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =) Ah, ok. I stand corrected on my assessments of Dimaga's cheese. I was simply taking someone else's word for it because I didn't pay close enough attention to the games last night Anyway, if Dimaga actually did that blindly, it only strengthens my point about the double standard I was complaining about earlier - risky play = huge fan, calculated, careful play = lose respect? Riiight. Nestea does the same build zvz over and over again, Dimaga's choice wasn't very risky.
Dimaga surely showed that NesTea could be guessed correctly when he cheesed him being one game down (WTF, balls of steel), in 1v1 maps blind expansions don't seem like a good idea. However I don't know if you noticed but he has this zergling rush build in to punish someone over droneing @ around 20-30 supply, where he streams 20+ zerglings towards you trying to get queens/drones--in the games he won he got the queen killed--and made the other zerg over make units then runs back with those lings and uses them to defend and uses the second round of larva inject to make a a ton of drones--while nestea had to remake a queen and made units thinking he was getting rushed, when he came to attack Dimaga it was too late, some spines were going up to make sure he couldn't lose to the counter (being able to secure yourself a full round for 8drones is plenty okay for you to make 2/3spines). From here he had a 4/5 drone lead allowing him to shoot off nestea's production and make more then nest tea, until he pushed out, his first attack was actually very good even though it didn't kill nestea because it didn't allow him to try and hit max before fighting Dimaga for the 2nd fight, Dimaga pulled back and waited for his econ to continue giving him the advantage dropped the 3rd hatch before nest tea and had it fully saturated before nestea had his complete, and then had the last push where he was 20/30 food over NesTea.
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On March 31 2011 07:46 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:26 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror... Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add). Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from. sirlins a bit of a retard
Haha, it's quite an honor to have IdrA respond to one of my posts, even if it's just a one-liner trying to discredit my post
I'm with AndAgain - I'm curious about your opinion regarding Sirlin. I personally find his philosophy to be very reasonable, although I knew that you'd strongly disagree with Sirlin given your reputation. Care to elaborate?
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On March 31 2011 07:41 chenchen wrote:
I really think that people should stop flaunting their ignorance.
Four gate is standard in PvP.
In literally every match up other than PvP, San goes for an econ based macro game, the origin of his nickname "The Wack-a-Mole Protoss", because he expands everywhere and even when he loses so much stuff, he just rebuilds it because he has so much stuff.
It isn't ignorance to not enjoy watching 4 gates, it's preference. Getting a masters degree in PvP wouldn't change the fact I don't enjoy watching 4 gates.
I don't care if San sucked 3 seasons ago, or was great last season, 4 gating isn't entertaining.
I don't understand why people can't admit other people have preferences in the games they watch. You don't insult someone just because they like/dislike reality shows, why would you do the same to someone who likes/dislikes 4 gates. It's a style that they find boring.
You should really stop flaunting your ignorance in spectatorship.  Don't care that that's not a real word lol. ^^
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my opinion that hes retarded is more based on an article he posted about sc2/mbs/"button mashing"
but with the respect to the scrub stuff, its operating on the assumption that the game isnt broken. he even gives examples in the article about how some characters are too good and thus are banned, he couches it by saying theyre boss characters and not designed to be fair, but the premise is there. there can be cheap things within games, pointing them out doesnt make you a 'scrub'
5 rax reaper was in the game, it was obviously broken, it was removed. people who bitched about it were helping the community by calling attention to a problem within the game that was then fixed.
ya in a mature, well designed game he may have a point. sc2 isnt that.
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On March 31 2011 08:21 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 07:41 chenchen wrote:
I really think that people should stop flaunting their ignorance.
Four gate is standard in PvP.
In literally every match up other than PvP, San goes for an econ based macro game, the origin of his nickname "The Wack-a-Mole Protoss", because he expands everywhere and even when he loses so much stuff, he just rebuilds it because he has so much stuff. It isn't ignorance to not enjoy watching 4 gates, it's preference. Getting a masters degree in PvP wouldn't change the fact I don't enjoy watching 4 gates. I don't care if San sucked 3 seasons ago, or was great last season, 4 gating isn't entertaining. I don't understand why people can't admit other people have preferences in the games they watch. You don't insult someone just because they like/dislike reality shows, why would you do the same to someone who likes/dislikes 4 gates. It's a style that they find boring. You should really stop flaunting your ignorance in spectatorship. Don't care that that's not a real word lol. ^^
Massing up collosus and seeing who has more isn't that much better.
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I personally did not enjoy watching p v p or the 4 gate very much, but have really grown to love the shit out of it. These counter-builds are really interesting to watch, and the fact that most of the defends depend on such small factors such as a probe snipe makes it wicked exciting. The 3-5 min back and forth ramp battles can show great, great micro. White-Ra vs San 2nd game. Holy Shit.
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On March 31 2011 08:27 IdrA wrote:
my opinion that hes retarded is more based on an article he posted about sc2/mbs/"button mashing"
but with the respect to the scrub stuff, its operating on the assumption that the game isnt broken. he even gives examples in the article about how some characters are too good and thus are banned, he couches it by saying theyre boss characters and not designed to be fair, but the premise is there. there can be cheap things within games, pointing them out doesnt make you a 'scrub'
5 rax reaper was in the game, it was obviously broken, it was removed. people who bitched about it were helping the community by calling attention to a problem within the game that was then fixed.
ya in a mature, well designed game he may have a point. sc2 isnt that.
Sirlin also hates execution as a skill, which in my opinion should disallow him from being able to talk seriously about Starcraft in general. Also he's kind of a dbag, but not in an admirable, fun way like you are, just in that he clings to his theories and pushes them on people even though he is wrong. I remember him saying something about Brood War being bad because of how much execution it requires and how it supposedly limits the amount that you can mind game... God that guy is annoying.
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On March 31 2011 08:27 IdrA wrote:
my opinion that hes retarded is more based on an article he posted about sc2/mbs/"button mashing"
but with the respect to the scrub stuff, its operating on the assumption that the game isnt broken. he even gives examples in the article about how some characters are too good and thus are banned, he couches it by saying theyre boss characters and not designed to be fair, but the premise is there. there can be cheap things within games, pointing them out doesnt make you a 'scrub'
5 rax reaper was in the game, it was obviously broken, it was removed. people who bitched about it were helping the community by calling attention to a problem within the game that was then fixed.
ya in a mature, well designed game he may have a point. sc2 isnt that.
Well, if I recall correctly (I haven't read his stuff in a while) he also makes his point about how if the game is badly designed, then once you get to a very high level, you won't find an awesome nirvana of deep gameplay and possibilities - you'll find a disappointingly dry plateau of bad game design, and at that point, it's obvious that the game has problems. In that sense, if you are truly correct about SC2 being badly designed, Sirlin would have to agree with you, and at that point, it's just up to Blizzard to fix it before it becomes too late.
Also, I agree with you that merely pointing out cheap things doesn't make you a scrub. The action that makes you a "scrub" (I dislike the use of that word personally because its popular connotation is pretty different from how Sirlin defines it, but I guess it's unavoidable) isn't complaining about the cheap things - it's refusing to do those "cheap" things yourself to try and win. Furthermore, in a mirror matchup like I was discussing with WhiteRa vs. San, I'd have a hard time telling myself that anything is as ridiculously difficult to deal with as 5rax reaper was for Zerg, since both sides are more or less on an even playing field. 5rax reaper is a different story since Terran and Zerg at the time were obviously not on an even playing field.
Thus, I feel that my point about WhiteRa vs. San still stands, although admittedly there are some very valid flaws in Sirlin's arguments that I believe you do address.
One uncomfortable thing I'd like to point out is that Sirlin also suggests that if you do reach the plateau of very high-level play and find that the game is badly designed, you'd do better to find yourself a new game instead of suffering with the flawed one. Obviously, this puts professional gamers in an unfair position since they've invested so much time and effort into the game, and thus I think Blizzard has an even deeper obligation to make sure that the game is balanced for those people. I really hope for a good future for SC2
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HOLY CRAP Did DIMAGA beat NesTea ZvZ in Bo3???! I'm a fan.
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On March 31 2011 08:30 HeroHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 08:21 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 07:41 chenchen wrote:
I really think that people should stop flaunting their ignorance.
Four gate is standard in PvP.
In literally every match up other than PvP, San goes for an econ based macro game, the origin of his nickname "The Wack-a-Mole Protoss", because he expands everywhere and even when he loses so much stuff, he just rebuilds it because he has so much stuff. It isn't ignorance to not enjoy watching 4 gates, it's preference. Getting a masters degree in PvP wouldn't change the fact I don't enjoy watching 4 gates. I don't care if San sucked 3 seasons ago, or was great last season, 4 gating isn't entertaining. I don't understand why people can't admit other people have preferences in the games they watch. You don't insult someone just because they like/dislike reality shows, why would you do the same to someone who likes/dislikes 4 gates. It's a style that they find boring. You should really stop flaunting your ignorance in spectatorship. Don't care that that's not a real word lol. ^^ Massing up collosus and seeing who has more isn't that much better.
Well at least it has a better lead up to it, and shows mechanics ability better, aoe units just don't fair to well in the balance...
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On March 31 2011 08:30 HeroHenry wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 08:21 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 07:41 chenchen wrote:
I really think that people should stop flaunting their ignorance.
Four gate is standard in PvP.
In literally every match up other than PvP, San goes for an econ based macro game, the origin of his nickname "The Wack-a-Mole Protoss", because he expands everywhere and even when he loses so much stuff, he just rebuilds it because he has so much stuff. It isn't ignorance to not enjoy watching 4 gates, it's preference. Getting a masters degree in PvP wouldn't change the fact I don't enjoy watching 4 gates. I don't care if San sucked 3 seasons ago, or was great last season, 4 gating isn't entertaining. I don't understand why people can't admit other people have preferences in the games they watch. You don't insult someone just because they like/dislike reality shows, why would you do the same to someone who likes/dislikes 4 gates. It's a style that they find boring. You should really stop flaunting your ignorance in spectatorship. Don't care that that's not a real word lol. ^^ Massing up collosus and seeing who has more isn't that much better.
Did I say it was? Not sure why you're quoting me to say that. I've said nothing about my preferences on PvP past that i dislike 4 gates.
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EPT
