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On March 31 2011 06:38 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's nice to see complete ignorance. Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing. Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won. There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP) Didnt WHITE-RA counter the best 4 gater MC with 3 gate robo?
no
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On March 31 2011 06:39 Shocae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:34 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:29 Asha` wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage). Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =) Ah, ok. I stand corrected on my assessments of Dimaga's cheese. I was simply taking someone else's word for it because I didn't pay close enough attention to the games last night  Anyway, if Dimaga actually did that blindly, it only strengthens my point about the double standard I was complaining about earlier - risky play = huge fan, calculated, careful play = lose respect? Riiight. Again, you may possibly be assuming too much. Who's to say he did not study Nestea's ZvZ and his tendencies to blind 15 hatch, thus making it a calcuated, careful play. In that case the best case scenario to win % wise would be to "cheese" even though it might be seen as risky to do over a longer period of time. In a specific 1 game scenario with previous and outside information, it would be the "stronger" build. This is also all speculation. He could have thought "...fuck it, 9pool baby."
I agree that I'm only basing my assessments of Dimaga's games off of assumptions and off of other posts on here. You're right, he could have definitely studied Nestea's ZvZ. If his move was carefully calculated on some level, that's perfectly fine.
The entire point here was me addressing ThaZenith's post about a double standard, which seems pointless now because he seems to either not know what a double standard is, or is just complicit in it altogether. There's no need to nitpick on the specifics of whether or not San scouted, whether or not Dimaga was playing risky, whether or not mindgames were played, etc.
My point is that Dimaga's playstyle is no better or worse than San's in the sense that they both sometimes do cheesy or risky things to win, while they both can also show great, entertaining macro games.
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Yeah, I realize I came in on an argument already taking place. My bad. Just wanted to point out some assumptions as well as you seem fairly bright.
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Wow Dimaga over Nestea has to be the biggest upset of the year so far, and just the way he did it in game 3 outplaying him from start to finish so fucking BOSS.
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I just watched HuK vs MVP. The better player won, thats for sure. Even though i like huk a lot i have to say, that he played pretty baaad. Especially in the first set of the series.
On other news: go dimaga!
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On March 31 2011 06:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
I have no idea what games you're talking about. I don't base my opinion on a player, at this very moment, on games they played awhile ago.
MVP played great a couple seasons ago, I loved watching him. Then he started to play worse. Less entertaining, so I don't look forward to him as much.
And I don't see anything about a double standard in the slightest. I find 4 gating boring, so I find anyone using it less entertaining. And I'll like them less. It's that simple. If white-ra was 4 gating every game, I'd like him less too..
I found every game by Dimaga to be entertaining, thus I like him more now. And I found Nestea's play to be entertaining too, so I like him more also. I don't judge players based on if they win, it's how much I enjoy watching them.
I'm a spectator, i don't give a crap about what you think is "best", I don't care which playstyle is "best", if it's not fun to watch why the hell would I like the player who does it?
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On March 31 2011 06:40 kirbynator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:38 tdt wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's nice to see complete ignorance. Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing. Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won. There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP) Didnt WHITE-RA counter the best 4 gater MC with 3 gate robo? no
What do you call gate robo gate gate?
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On March 31 2011 06:51 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
I have no idea what games you're talking about. I don't base my opinion on a player, at this very moment, on games they played awhile ago. MVP played great a couple seasons ago, I loved watching him. Then he started to play worse. Less entertaining, so I don't look forward to him as much. And I don't see anything about a double standard in the slightest. I find 4 gating boring, so I find anyone using it less entertaining. And I'll like them less. It's that simple. If white-ra was 4 gating every game, I'd like him less too.. I found every game by Dimaga to be entertaining, thus I like him more now. And I found Nestea's play to be entertaining too, so I like him more also. I don't judge players based on if they win, it's how much I enjoy watching them. I'm a spectator, i don't give a crap about what you think is "best", I don't care which playstyle is "best", if it's not fun to watch why the hell would I like the player who does it?
It would probably be more accurate to say you dislike San's PvP then, as his other matchups are fairly entertaining. Which may be what he was addressing.
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On March 31 2011 06:54 Shocae wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:51 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
I have no idea what games you're talking about. I don't base my opinion on a player, at this very moment, on games they played awhile ago. MVP played great a couple seasons ago, I loved watching him. Then he started to play worse. Less entertaining, so I don't look forward to him as much. And I don't see anything about a double standard in the slightest. I find 4 gating boring, so I find anyone using it less entertaining. And I'll like them less. It's that simple. If white-ra was 4 gating every game, I'd like him less too.. I found every game by Dimaga to be entertaining, thus I like him more now. And I found Nestea's play to be entertaining too, so I like him more also. I don't judge players based on if they win, it's how much I enjoy watching them. I'm a spectator, i don't give a crap about what you think is "best", I don't care which playstyle is "best", if it's not fun to watch why the hell would I like the player who does it? It would probably be more accurate to say you dislike San's PvP then, as his other matchups are fairly entertaining. Which may be what he was addressing.
It's probably true. When i see San owning it up in a couple days against some terran, and not 4 gating, i'll like him more.
Oh and I just remembered what Sen game he was talking about lol, I don't think San was actually trying, neither player played that great a game so I kinda ignored it. Didn't affect my opinion of either.
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SanZenith played to win. His idea of winning is blind 4 gating every game. White-Ra doesn't respect this because in his view 4 gate isn't a display of skill or intelligence. It's really that simple.
White-Ra is usually a nice guy but even nice guys get pissed at the state of PvP and how it favors simple-minded rush strategies.
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On March 31 2011 06:51 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
I have no idea what games you're talking about. I don't base my opinion on a player, at this very moment, on games they played awhile ago. MVP played great a couple seasons ago, I loved watching him. Then he started to play worse. Less entertaining, so I don't look forward to him as much. And I don't see anything about a double standard in the slightest. I find 4 gating boring, so I find anyone using it less entertaining. And I'll like them less. It's that simple. If white-ra was 4 gating every game, I'd like him less too.. I found every game by Dimaga to be entertaining, thus I like him more now. And I found Nestea's play to be entertaining too, so I like him more also. I don't judge players based on if they win, it's how much I enjoy watching them. I'm a spectator, i don't give a crap about what you think is "best", I don't care which playstyle is "best", if it's not fun to watch why the hell would I like the player who does it?
I see. So it's not that you have a double standard, it's more that you're not aware or you forgot about San's games in the March GSL. That's fair enough, but I recommend you go watch them because those are great games and you'll see the very entertaining, macro-oriented side to San's playstyle.
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On March 31 2011 06:54 Logo2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:40 kirbynator wrote:On March 31 2011 06:38 tdt wrote:
Didnt WHITE-RA counter the best 4 gater MC with 3 gate robo? no What do you call gate robo gate gate?
White-Ra definitely did a robo gate but MC didn't do a 4-gate. He was probably thinking of 4-gating but saw that White-Ra had matching units with him at the start (2 stalker 1 zealot). I think he thought White-Ra was also 4-gating and decided to go 4 gate blink instead.
I love White-Ra and I am very glad he got MC after his overconfident declare of war with the MC board. But MC would have won if he went on with his 4-gate.
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On March 31 2011 06:45 Shocae wrote:
Yeah, I realize I came in on an argument already taking place. My bad. Just wanted to point out some assumptions as well as you seem fairly bright.
Yeah, I feel like I really need to pay more attention to GSL games since little subtle things that Tastetosis might not even point out are very important in my assessment of a player.
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On March 31 2011 06:54 Logo2010 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:40 kirbynator wrote:On March 31 2011 06:38 tdt wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's nice to see complete ignorance. Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing. Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won. There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP) Didnt WHITE-RA counter the best 4 gater MC with 3 gate robo? no What do you call gate robo gate gate?
MC waited on Blink. the only thing the robo would have provided at normal 4 gate timing is an obs, which wouldn't have been much help
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On March 31 2011 06:46 Irrelevant wrote:
Wow Dimaga over Nestea has to be the biggest upset of the year so far, and just the way he did it in game 3 outplaying him from start to finish so fucking BOSS.
So a GREAT player taking out a AMAZING player is the biggest upset of the year??
How about the champion of the previous seasons GSL falling to up and down...
and then going to code A
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DIMAGA HELL YEA... im sad that he isnt in the TSL, hes my hero from now on
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White-Ra's game with MC probably fueled his misconception that Koreans don't offensive/cheese 4-gate as much. He mentioned plenty of times that he does not watch the GSL and pays little attention to the Korean SC2 scene.
I'm assuming when WhiteRa was 4-gated 3x in a row he believed san was a 1-build 20x sort of guy. Both parties are not at fault.
And MC's build was a defensive 4-gate that he (MC) turned into a transition blink stalker. You could say WhiteRa got lucky with the build order when he decided to take the alternate path (Robo).
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On March 31 2011 07:08 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:46 Irrelevant wrote:
Wow Dimaga over Nestea has to be the biggest upset of the year so far, and just the way he did it in game 3 outplaying him from start to finish so fucking BOSS. So a GREAT player taking out a AMAZING player is the biggest upset of the year?? How about the champion of the previous seasons GSL falling to up and down... and then going to code A
Very well put, it made me laugh. 
I think MVP deserved the win vs Huk.
WhiteRa vs San was more of a coin-flip, both deserved to win, but San won the coin-flip.
July stomping Nada was really fun.
Dimaga taking on Nestea was nothing less than impressive, showing that the games from the team matches wasn't a fluke.
It was interesting hearing Artosis wondering how Dimaga was up on upgrades since he went double evolution chambers first. It all came down to the push Dimaga did after trapping the zerglings (an excellent move). This made Nestea go into crisis managment, cancelling his armor upgrade and getting spine crawlers. I think it all came down to Dimaga taking out those zerglings mentioned above, because he couldn't have pushed out like that if Nestea still had all those zerglings.
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On March 31 2011 07:00 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:51 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:39 HolyArrow wrote:
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
I have no idea what games you're talking about. I don't base my opinion on a player, at this very moment, on games they played awhile ago. MVP played great a couple seasons ago, I loved watching him. Then he started to play worse. Less entertaining, so I don't look forward to him as much. And I don't see anything about a double standard in the slightest. I find 4 gating boring, so I find anyone using it less entertaining. And I'll like them less. It's that simple. If white-ra was 4 gating every game, I'd like him less too.. I found every game by Dimaga to be entertaining, thus I like him more now. And I found Nestea's play to be entertaining too, so I like him more also. I don't judge players based on if they win, it's how much I enjoy watching them. I'm a spectator, i don't give a crap about what you think is "best", I don't care which playstyle is "best", if it's not fun to watch why the hell would I like the player who does it? I see. So it's not that you have a double standard, it's more that you're not aware or you forgot about San's games in the March GSL. That's fair enough, but I recommend you go watch them because those are great games and you'll see the very entertaining, macro-oriented side to San's playstyle.
GSL is the one league I can't follow religiously. I can't be up at 4am every day, and I can't watch the vods, and obviously I wasn't planning on getting up early to watch San last season, seeing as how he was supposed to be the worst and all. My only opinion of San before now was previous seasons, and hearsay from last season. So seeing a buncha 4 gates lowered my opinion, didn't match what i had heard about him.
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I don't know why people diss Dimaga for cheesing - its very smart. If opponents are going 16 hatch 16 pool (or whatever it was Nestea did) a high percentage of the time then its stupid not to 10 pool sometimes.
Anyone who plays heads up poker should understand why this is the case.
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EPT
