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On March 31 2011 06:09 Fbacon wrote:
maybe its just bad first impression. San never did glhf white-ra back in the first game :lol:
glhf is such a stupid thing to do in a competitive environment really.
It's not done really in Korea. Do you really wish your opponent gl? I think it's a mental mind game bs that oh I'll take the high road and wish you gl. So I can be BM later in an interview. Do you glhf first or second? Just forget all that and play. You can chit chat after if you really want to get to know each other and be friends.
Like artosis said, there are some people who chit chat on ladder and ask you where are u from etc. while 6 lings are running up your ramp.
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On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen.
U don't get it at all
dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank
and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch
and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row
but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be
Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example
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On March 31 2011 06:12 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's too bad you missed 3 out of the 5 games by Dimaga, but hey. You're obviously in this topic only to argue. Who am i to judge that your only entertainment comes from dissing people's opinions.  Enjoy yourself. ^^
Haha, are you kidding me?
Firstly, when you quoted my post, you completely left out the part in which I mentioned San's games in complete anticipation to this response by you. I completely expected you to say, "Oh, but Dimaga won his other games with macro, and thus your criticisms are invalid". That's why I mentioned that San also showed himself perfectly capable of macro games. If Dimaga is your hero when he does cheesy stuff and also knows how to do macro games, but you lose respect for San when he does cheesy stuff and also knows how to do macro games, where does that leave you?
That leaves you showing a huge double standard.
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On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards.
It's nice to see complete ignorance.
Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing.
Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won.
There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP)
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On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example
I agree that Dimaga's cheese were calculated and weren't blindly executed. However, my argument is that a player does what he perceives to give him the greatest chance of victory, that is fine and respectable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in PvP, even if you blindly 4gate every time, you will still have the greatest chance of victory because 4gate is simply so damn strong in PvP when executed right, regardless of other builds. Thus, the point is that BOTH players did justifiably calculated things to win.
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On March 31 2011 06:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's nice to see complete ignorance. Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing. Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won. There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP)
Wait, so what's your point? Are you arguing that taking huge risks makes you more respectable while playing to win is reprehensible?
I... don't get it.
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On March 31 2011 06:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's nice to see complete ignorance. Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing. Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won. There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP)
Did you even watch White-ra's game against MC? 3 gate robo?
With plays that have little to no risk. That's called standard play. If you don't expect standard play well are you a pro?
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I really dont understand why people whine about players "using" all-in or risky techniques which wins them the game if done right. Its a damn part of the game and the professional players are there to WIN within the rules of the game. If 4 gate makes PvP random and no fun to watch or if baneling busts make for uninteresting wins/losses then complain about Blizzard not doing anything about it and not about people using this stuff to win them games. In a battle to the death it does not matter who looked more majestic in the fight but it does matter who ends up alive in the end.
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White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror.
I'm saying that 4-gate is too easy to do. It has no real weakness. It doesn't get countered by anything. It doesn't involve any good decisionmaking and it produces boring games. Especially when 4 out of 5 mirrors are 4-gate pushes.
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On March 31 2011 06:19 HolyArrow wrote:
I agree that Dimaga's cheese were calculated and weren't blindly executed. However, my argument is that a player does what he perceives to give him the greatest chance of victory, that is fine and respectable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like in PvP, even if you blindly 4gate every time, you will still have the greatest chance of victory because 4gate is simply so damn strong in PvP when executed right, regardless of other builds. Thus, the point is that BOTH players did justifiably calculated things to win.
agree
it's all fine with San, he's a very good player and he's not newb or something because he doing what he needed to won
but it's not all fine with this part of PvP
imo at least
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On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror...
Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add).
Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from.
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United Kingdom38136 Posts
On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example
Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p
Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage).
Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =)
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As I have mentioned before, he should have prepared for 4-gate.
Doesn't change the fact, that the state of PvP is so bad right now.
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On March 31 2011 06:26 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:23 AntiGrav1ty wrote:
White-Ra should've prepared for 4-gates apparently but that doesn't change the fact that it's broken in PvP. 4-Gate is so incredibly easy to do and almost always a win if the opponent doesn't do it as well.
White-Ra's Bm was probably more frustration about the state of PvP than his opponent. If you don't like 4-Gate you are doomed in mirror... Look up "Sirlin play to win" on google. If WhiteRa was really complaining about 4gate, then he was simply being a "scrub" as defined by Sirlin's book (which is very well thought out and VERY well-written, I might add). Don't mean to insult WhiteRa with the word "scrub", but, basically, Sirlin defines it as a player who kind of restricts himself to a certain playstyle because he thinks the game should be played a certain way, and when he loses to someone playing to win, he complains that the tactics that the winner used were "cheap". Obviously, it's not a perfect analogy since WhiteRa didn't complain by calling the 4gate "cheap" (I'm still on the fence about whether or not he was being sarcastic or actually complaining in the first place), but you can see where I'm coming from.
This assumes a lot about what he said and his intentions. Granted I agree with most of it, but I'm not so sure White-Ra thinks people should not do 4gate. It seems more like he feels it is a not well thought out match up and that it doesn't yield results consistent with the so-called best players.
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On March 31 2011 06:16 HolyArrow wrote:
If Dimaga is your hero when he does cheesy stuff and also knows how to do macro games, but you lose respect for San when he does cheesy stuff and also knows how to do macro games, where does that leave you?
Leaves me loving Dimaga and caring less for San. I didn't think it was hard to understand.
You're like a guy going "omfg you don't like soaps? I love soaps they has stories and backgrounds and people talking lots they rock. you r wrong"
People will like the entertaining players. People don't automatically love people because they win, that's blind fanboy-ism. HF with that. ^^
Not actually sure why I'm feeding the troll. I'll leave and hope you starve, but i see there are others throwing crap your way too.
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On March 31 2011 06:29 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage). Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =)
Ah, ok. I stand corrected on my assessments of Dimaga's cheese. I was simply taking someone else's word for it because I didn't pay close enough attention to the games last night 
Anyway, if Dimaga actually did that blindly, it only strengthens my point about the double standard I was complaining about earlier - risky play = huge fan, calculated, careful play = lose respect?
Riiight.
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On March 31 2011 06:16 AntiGrav1ty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:09 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 06:08 ThaZenith wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:
So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP?
. Exactly correct. I'm glad you understand. It's nice to see people complicit in their double standards. It's nice to see complete ignorance. Attacking after Hatch first off 2 bases after being 2-raxed/4-raxed isn't even close to 4-gate pushing. Also 10-pooling is a huge risk because it gets hard-countered very easily. He took the risk and won. There is NOTHING that hardcounters 4-gate. There is no risk to 4-gate at all. It's either easy-win or an even game against another 4-gate (in PvP)
Didnt WHITE-RA counter the best 4 gater MC with 3 gate robo?
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On March 31 2011 06:34 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:29 Asha` wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage). Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =) Ah, ok. I stand corrected on my assessments of Dimaga's cheese. I was simply taking someone else's word for it because I didn't pay close enough attention to the games last night Anyway, if Dimaga actually did that blindly, it only strengthens my point about the double standard I was complaining about earlier - risky play = huge fan, calculated, careful play = lose respect? Riiight.
Again, you may possibly be assuming too much. Who's to say he did not study Nestea's ZvZ and his tendencies to blind 15 hatch, thus making it a calcuated, careful play. In that case the best case scenario to win % wise would be to "cheese" even though it might be seen as risky to do over a longer period of time. In a specific 1 game scenario with previous and outside information, it would be the "stronger" build. This is also all speculation. He could have thought "...fuck it, 9pool baby."
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On March 31 2011 06:33 ThaZenith wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:16 HolyArrow wrote:
If Dimaga is your hero when he does cheesy stuff and also knows how to do macro games, but you lose respect for San when he does cheesy stuff and also knows how to do macro games, where does that leave you?
Leaves me loving Dimaga and caring less for San. I didn't think it was hard to understand. You're like a guy going "omfg you don't like soaps? I love soaps they has stories and backgrounds and people talking lots they rock. you r wrong" People will like the entertaining players. People don't automatically love people because they win, that's blind fanboy-ism. HF with that. ^^ Not actually sure why I'm feeding the troll. I'll leave and hope you starve, but i see there are others throwing crap your way too.
Exactly. Like I said, you're simply complicit in your double standard. Most people would be defense when accused of a double standard, but you seem to almost take pride in one, while double standards are pretty much always inherently unfair and discriminatory. There's really nothing else to talk about if you're going to proudly flaunt your double-standard openly like that.
Oh, and did you really find San's games against sC, his game against Nestea, and his game against Sen to be not entertaining? I guess that's your opinion and all, but it's going to be very, very difficult for you to support if we were to actually delve into the specifics.
Oh, and your analogy makes no sense, and makes me think that you don't understand what a double standard even is. Your analogy with soaps would be more accurate if one person liked a soap for certain characteristics, and then went on to hate on a soap for the same characteristics. That's called a double standard. You analogy doesn't involve any sort of double standard.
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On March 31 2011 06:34 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 06:29 Asha` wrote:On March 31 2011 06:16 HQuality wrote:On March 31 2011 06:01 HolyArrow wrote:On March 31 2011 05:55 ThaZenith wrote:
Dimaga is my hero. I like San less after all those 4 gates, whether it's "standard" in pvp or not. So Dimaga baneling busts MVP and all-ins Nestea and he's your hero, while your opinion of San goes down when he 4gates in PvP? You can't say that it's okay because Dimaga varies it up, because we've seen San vary it up plenty of times with his unique, very KA-reliant style he used against sC, or his long, epic macro games against Nestea, TheWind, and Sen. U don't get it at all dimaga busts mvp cause of he doing 2rax the expo then another 2 rax with no tank and go 9pool one time because nestea BLINDLY puts 15hatch and san just do 4gate blindly 3times in a row but still it's all fine with San, 4wgp working alot againt all other build, why not to use it sure. but is was muuuch less skillful then it can be Also don't so worry about San-Dimaga game, dimaga is not uncomfortable with this kinda protosses, much more with like Hasu for example Dimaga blindly 10pool all-inned, he made the gamble that NesTea would go hatch first again but don't make it sound like it was anything other than a gamble on that all in =p Also what on earth are you talking about with the San games, WhiteRa was the player doing the same build 3 games in a row, San opened the first with Gate Gate Robo Gate (a game he should have won but he missed his timing) and four gated the next 2 because he recognises the obvious frailties in that 3stalker build (i.e. if the probe/pylon denial fails there's a serious unit disadvantage). Amusingly for all your accusations of San's blind fourgating, he scouted the build in each game, did a far better job of continuing to scout in the second game, and his PvP was generally very pleasant to watch with all the little mindgames going on =) Ah, ok. I stand corrected on my assessments of Dimaga's cheese. I was simply taking someone else's word for it because I didn't pay close enough attention to the games last night Anyway, if Dimaga actually did that blindly, it only strengthens my point about the double standard I was complaining about earlier - risky play = huge fan, calculated, careful play = lose respect? Riiight.
on the other hand nestea did blind hatch first which was a gamble too.... i explained few pages ago that hatch first on xnc is dead to cheese (without drone scout)
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EPT
