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On March 03 2011 19:00 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 18:56 Warent wrote:On March 03 2011 18:48 KonohaFlash wrote:On March 03 2011 18:45 Leetley wrote:On March 03 2011 18:39 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote:
People don't understand, the Protoss who was already somewhat ahead in economy would've easily won the game with his 3rd up inbetween their bases and constant Collossi harass.
But then again, people don't understand hehe ;P Idra had 3rd base coming up and that engagement was just a terrible decision. He still had a change to win the game if he wouldn't have attacked there. Basically Idra just trashed everything. Yea, so he should just let Squirtle get his third up, which is right next to Idra's main and allow him to slowly creep up with his army and slowly destroy Idra's base? I'm pretty sure Idra knows what he's doing and the fact he committed to the engagement means that he had to prevent the third from going up. Obviously the decision to attack wasn't the best decision. He might have lost later on anyway if he instead decided to let the toss get his third base up, but we will never know. How do you know it wasn't the best decision? Do you have an alternate reality time machine to play out these two scenarios to see which decision was the best? Yeah it's easy to be critical of progamers in hindsight, but people should think that maybe they actually know what they're doing.
I don't need an alternate reality time machine, I just watched the game and realised that there were no micro in the world that had been able to won him that attack, Idra probably realised that too but once he had commited it was to late. Had he not attacked the game would have continued, and this is were your fancy machine would come in handy.
And likewise people should realise that progamers dosen't know everything, that they are humans who makes mistakes.
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On March 03 2011 19:12 bkrow wrote:Because people have brains.. don't read if you don't want to know; do if you do..
if we have brains, then we know to go to the proper thread.
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On March 03 2011 19:10 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well to be honest he has said many things about Zerg in various phases of the game (from Beta to now) and he has not always been correct, remeber what race the first two guys that won the GSL were playing while he was saying that Zerg have no chance vs T and P back then? I agree that it's very difficult for Zerg to come back but it's nto impossible, after all there is always a chance that your opponent will make some mistake!
Yeah, and both of those champion zergs are in + Show Spoiler +
I want to meet a zerg who is totally confident in every MU.
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 03 2011 19:13 CorsairHero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:12 bkrow wrote:Because people have brains.. don't read if you don't want to know; do if you do.. if we have brains, then we know to go to the proper thread.
Lol ok mate; if it makes you feel better - you win 
Anyone know what's going on with mOOnglade.. can't watch the stream right now
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On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind?
Well that's my point, it was IdrA who said that zerg wasn't a race that could pull off comebacks. Why would you take IdrA's word as a rule? His unwillingness to even try is what I think a big weakness with his play. Who knows, maybe he could've tried expanding elsewhere, or go for the toss' natural, maybe wait for corruptors and engage in a better position? Surely there are games where a zerg has come from behind without having to resort to gimmicks? You won't find out without trying.
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Did anyone notice if Idra had scouted Squirtles army? It seemed to me that he hadn't at all but i am not sure.
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Maybe he thought a couple of clicks is too exhausting for most of us.
I actually got tired going through all those caps.
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On March 03 2011 19:15 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:13 CorsairHero wrote:On March 03 2011 19:12 bkrow wrote:Because people have brains.. don't read if you don't want to know; do if you do.. if we have brains, then we know to go to the proper thread. Lol ok mate; if it makes you feel better - you win Anyone know what's going on with mOOnglade.. can't watch the stream right now
It starts after the CS match, so in about 45min
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On March 03 2011 19:14 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:10 nvrs wrote:On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well to be honest he has said many things about Zerg in various phases of the game (from Beta to now) and he has not always been correct, remeber what race the first two guys that won the GSL were playing while he was saying that Zerg have no chance vs T and P back then? I agree that it's very difficult for Zerg to come back but it's nto impossible, after all there is always a chance that your opponent will make some mistake! Yeah, and both of those champion zergs are in + Show Spoiler + I want to meet a zerg who is totally confident in every MU.
+ Show Spoiler +Dude. mvp and mkp are in the up and down as well. that doesnt say anything.
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On March 03 2011 19:15 sniverty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well that's my point, it was IdrA who said that zerg wasn't a race that could pull off comebacks. Why would you take IdrA's word as a rule? His unwillingness to even try is what I think a big weakness with his play. Who knows, maybe he could've tried expanding elsewhere, or go for the toss' natural, maybe wait for corruptors and engage in a better position? Surely there are games where a zerg has come from behind without having to resort to gimmicks? You won't find out without trying.
Link me a pro game where it happened.
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On March 03 2011 19:15 sniverty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well that's my point, it was IdrA who said that zerg wasn't a race that could pull off comebacks. Why would you take IdrA's word as a rule? His unwillingness to even try is what I think a big weakness with his play. Who knows, maybe he could've tried expanding elsewhere, or go for the toss' natural, maybe wait for corruptors and engage in a better position? Surely there are games where a zerg has come from behind without having to resort to gimmicks? You won't find out without trying.
Totally agree, his weakness to me is that he just stops trying when he feels he aint got the upper hand. That's the worst possible apporach for anyone/any team in sports, in the effort to become champion(s). If he doesn't fix that i cant see him winning anything big.
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Well, I wouldnt play against a Toss whos on 3 base and just incing with a deathball, I would instant ggout, because theres no way to stop the push which Squirtle made, so instead of trying to pull off some magi comeback, which wont happen in 100 years, just GG and u dont get exhazsted cuz of that :>
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On March 03 2011 19:14 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:10 nvrs wrote:On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well to be honest he has said many things about Zerg in various phases of the game (from Beta to now) and he has not always been correct, remeber what race the first two guys that won the GSL were playing while he was saying that Zerg have no chance vs T and P back then? I agree that it's very difficult for Zerg to come back but it's nto impossible, after all there is always a chance that your opponent will make some mistake! Yeah, and both of those champion zergs are in + Show Spoiler + I want to meet a zerg who is totally confident in every MU.
What's that supposed to mean for the state of the game and the metagame back then???
He was still saying that stuff back THEN but two Zergs actually won when Idra was saying during the first GSL that ZvT was unwinnable and the same for ZvP furing the second one!
Of course the game has changed since then.
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Australia8532 Posts
On March 03 2011 19:17 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:15 sniverty wrote:On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well that's my point, it was IdrA who said that zerg wasn't a race that could pull off comebacks. Why would you take IdrA's word as a rule? His unwillingness to even try is what I think a big weakness with his play. Who knows, maybe he could've tried expanding elsewhere, or go for the toss' natural, maybe wait for corruptors and engage in a better position? Surely there are games where a zerg has come from behind without having to resort to gimmicks? You won't find out without trying. Link me a pro game where it happened.
Jinro vs Check last GSL - Jinro seemed to be slipping into a macro dominant role .. fucked his wall up and check flooded him with lings --> and ended up winning the game..
Not a COMPLETE game changer as it happened early on but Jinro was looking very very comfortable..
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On March 03 2011 19:17 nvrs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:15 sniverty wrote:On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well that's my point, it was IdrA who said that zerg wasn't a race that could pull off comebacks. Why would you take IdrA's word as a rule? His unwillingness to even try is what I think a big weakness with his play. Who knows, maybe he could've tried expanding elsewhere, or go for the toss' natural, maybe wait for corruptors and engage in a better position? Surely there are games where a zerg has come from behind without having to resort to gimmicks? You won't find out without trying. Totally agree, his weakness to me is that he just stops trying when he feels he aint got the upper hand. That's the worst possible apporach for anyone/any team in sports, in the effort to become champion(s). If he doesn't fix that i cant see him winning anything big.
Maybe he knows from experience that once Zerg is in a difficult position, a comeback is near impossible? I would assume he learned about the drawbacks of the Zerg race from the hours and hours of practice he's put into the game... it's not like when he first choose Zerg he decided never to try and come back..
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If you assume perfect play from Squirtle then yea, the situation was probably unwinnable, but even pros make mistakes. In general, probably wouldn't be worth it to fight tooth and nail, but 2-2 might as well try.
I'm interested as well to know if Idra had scouted the army or was going in semiblind.
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ohhh no, not idra, guess he was cheering for some one else to advance out of the triangle of death.
gogo moon combo now.
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On March 03 2011 19:19 Saragas wrote:
Well, I wouldnt play against a Toss whos on 3 base and just incing with a deathball, I would instant ggout, because theres no way to stop the push which Squirtle made, so instead of trying to pull off some magi comeback, which wont happen in 100 years, just GG and u dont get exhazsted cuz of that :>
Yeah right!
He could have expanded, attacked squirtles natural with a small force which only had a couple of cannons while still keeping enough forces to defend some push through the back door in a wider space than that narrow crap-choke. Instead he marches on to his death hoping that squirtle would not notice?
Why won't ppl just admit that his scouting was really poor?
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On March 03 2011 19:20 bkrow wrote:
Jinro vs Check last GSL - Jinro seemed to be slipping into a macro dominant role .. fucked his wall up and check flooded him with lings --> and ended up winning the game..
Not a COMPLETE game changer as it happened early on but Jinro was looking very very comfortable..
What? that was a game where the zerg came back from behind? That was a fairly even game, and that was Jinro making a HUGE mistake that no pro should ever have happen to them.
And come on, if anyone watched the finals of the first two GSLs, it was pretty obvious the opponents played poorly.
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On March 03 2011 19:15 sniverty wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2011 19:05 Ultramus wrote:On March 03 2011 19:03 sniverty wrote:
I really admire IdrA's macro and think he's a pretty amazing player, but I think he needs to show a little more resilience when facing tough situations. The fact that he gives up/makes a poor move when he's behind is a little disappointing. I'm sure I'll be reminded by people that IdrA would've been even farther behind if he'd ignored the protoss' 3'rd base, but a head to head engagement without corruptor support against colossi seemed like a decision taken out of desperation. He's said it himself, zerg is not a race to come back from. What strategy is there, or even gimmick that will get a zerg back in a game when he's behind? Well that's my point, it was IdrA who said that zerg wasn't a race that could pull off comebacks. Why would you take IdrA's word as a rule? His unwillingness to even try is what I think a big weakness with his play. Who knows, maybe he could've tried expanding elsewhere, or go for the toss' natural, maybe wait for corruptors and engage in a better position? Surely there are games where a zerg has come from behind without having to resort to gimmicks? You won't find out without trying.
Let me try to really simplify why making a comeback is too hard for zerg.
To comeback you really have three chances. First is winning a major turning battle, second is overexpanding, third is winning several small skirmishes. In brood war that third option was more prevalent and you even had a forth option of rushing a game changing tech (defiler, carrier, etc). So option 1 really doesn't work too well in sc2 anymore.
Getting 7 bases up as zerg doesn't really do much because saturating 3 bases with minerals already puts you at the maximum number of drones you want. Also with that protoss position at 12, any hint of low unit count from idra scouted via obs will result in an instant attack into the main. 5 second attack distance gives no time to play greedy. In this case protoss is going to play defensive until 200/200 unless he sees no units from zerg.
Another option is winning a key battle by overinvesting in units and hoping protoss makes a bad attack. Protoss can prevent this loss by turtling to 200/200.
Lastly is using small cost effective skirmishes until you make up your disadvantage. Zerg really doesn't have this option except for drop and countering. Protoss defend this by playing defensive and turtling.
So now what option does zerg have outside of these ways? Banking on better mechanics like in brood war just doesn't work. I know this is extremely simplified but I can't really think of any other way.
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EPT
