[GSL] Up and Down Matches Groups G and H - Page 64

Wow, good call, I don't live in Detroit, or care about the Lions! But I don't get the comparison. I thought both San and LF brought some decent games, and they definitely don't deserve to be lampooned.

On January 28 2011 13:28 Sniffy wrote:
when and why did this thread become a whine fest about tastosis? nobody cares if you dont like them, mute the stream if they make you bleed uncontrollably

On January 28 2011 13:36 Duravi wrote:


That is a different argument. Saying someone doesn't deserve to be lampooned is different than saying nobody should be.

On January 28 2011 13:27 Duravi wrote:


Clearly you have not watched a Detroit Lions game in the last few years. I remember before the Colts got Manning they were showing on TV in-between snaps fans who wore a paper bag over their head to the game and the commentators thought it was funny. People getting paid to do something and performing horrible and not giving good games SHOULD be lampooned.

Even when the Lion went 0-14 announcers weren't calling the players names and saying they didn't even deserve to play in the European league.

There is quite a huge difference.

On January 28 2011 11:38 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
It is easy to spot the socially awkward, pre-teen shut-ins in this thread: they are the ones who can't seem to understand that there is a difference between criticizing somebody and just shitting all over them.

Yeah, I was laughing at Tasteless and Artosis's jokes but normal people just aren't going to take StarCraft seriously if the official spokespeople talk like that about the talent. It would be fine for them to point out his mistakes and say his strategies aren't going to work and make comments about the poor quality of his play. However, mocking the guy and calling him names and that sort of nonsense is just not acceptable behavior from anyone who takes their job and esports seriously. It is just one more thing that confirms stereotypes that the general public hold about professional video game players: they're just a bunch of kids or adults with stunted maturity who are playing at being competitive.

Can you imagine Day[9] talking about somebody like that?

Tasteless and Artosis need to realize that they are the face of professional esports for most of the world. They keep asking me to tell all my friends about the GSL but then they speak internet acronyms and then just rain crap all over the players. My normal friends would think I had linked them some guy's YouTube channel - they'd never guess these were the two premier commentators in a professional organization. I really like Tasteless and Artosis and if nerds are the only people they want to watch them (excluding me, of course...ahem), they're doing wonderfully but if they are actually serious about legitimizing and popularizing esports with the general public, they really need to act in a more professional manner.

Plus, talking like that and then having LiveForever take the series just made them look like boners.

Argument A:

1) An eSport requires Heroes to thrive
2) Heroes can only exist if their demonstrated skill is greater than or equal to their long-term success
3) Heroes can only exist if their long-term success is great
4) Cheesers shall be defined as those of lesser skill that use abusive strategies
J) RHMVNovus couldn't think of a better name and is just using 'Cheesers' because he's tired
5) Heroes and Cheesers cannot be both successful in the long term
6) If premise 5 is true, great long-term success of Cheesers would prevent Heroes' long-term success from being great
7) If premise 6 is true, great long-term success of Cheesers would prevent the existence of Heroes
----
C) Great long-term success of Cheesers would prevent eSports from thriving

Argument B:

1) It is incumbent upon anyone in a position to help eSports and desirous of eSports success
2) Argument A is true
3) Decrying Cheesers discourages the existence of Cheesers
4) In order to achieve great long-term success, one must exist
5) If Premise 4 is true, Decrying Cheesers discourages their great long-term success
6) If Argument A is true, 'discouraging the great long-term success of Cheesers' is included in the set of 'action to help eSports thrive'
7) Tasteless and Artosis are in a position to help eSports and desirous of eSports success
8) Tasteless and Artosis decry Cheesers
9) If Premise 6 is true and if Premise 8 is true, Tasteless and Artosis take action to help eSports thrive
-
C) By decrying Cheesers, Tasteless and Artosis take action to help eSports thrive

On January 28 2011 13:47 Duravi wrote:


Their handle is not their name. It is the equivalent of talking poorly about a team, the handle only relates to SC2. The league stuff was kind of edgy I'm not gonna disagree with that but certainly no reason to hate on them; you don't have to agree with 100% of the things a sportscaster says to enjoy their commentary. The jobber thing was fine; he played that game like a jobber, tasteless didn't call him a jobber in the games he won. Just this year there was a commentator for a Notre Dame football game who said their defense "played like a highschool defense" one game this season. Did people get furious and start calling for his job? Absolutely not.

On January 28 2011 13:38 GP wrote:

I didn't say nobody should be, I said the winning player (I was talking about the interviews at that point).

I actually like Tastosis as casters, and I'm glad their being replaced for Code A because some of these Code A and Up and Down matches have been unbearable. You can tell Tastosis is completely apathetic about some of these games.

Their job is to provide entertainment. And they have done that for most people, including all 10-15 people I know personally who watch.

On January 28 2011 14:01 RHMVNovus wrote:


Cool. Let's open up with pretension that happens to be completely false. Yeah!

Players like LiveForever are harming eSports far more than Tastosis. Having players of clearly inferior talent abusing maps and the races as they do kills any entertainment value. Build Order losses are boring, abusive strats that require more skill to hold off than execute are boring, and maps that encourage these abusive strats are also boring.

This isn't just the screed of a Zerg player: I love watching MKP play. It's not that I love to see people making infinity units and killing each other. It's that there are strategies that can be scouted (which in an RTS should give the scouter an advantage) that cannot be held without skill far outstripping the executor. Strategies that don't require any scouting at all. Strategies that require little to no skill to execute.

SC2 need heroes whose skill corresponds to their success in order to thrive as an eSport. That's why I love MKP. Because his splitting is pristine, and that requires a copia of skill. That he's successful in proportion to his skill is why I love watching him (lol). Racial and/or map balances stand in the way of that.

It is this dissonance, before any dislike of Tastosis, that prevents it from becoming a major spectator sport. Is Tastosis the best casting duo out there? Hell no. Day[J]Wheat, in my eyes, far outstrip them in both professionalism and humor (analysis, Day[9] is the best of the 4, and due to his relatively recent introduction to SC, I'd say DJWheat may be last [love for DJWheat]). But the fact remains that we can't get Day[J]Wheat out there, so unless you get the distinguished orator IdrA to commentate, we really got nothing.

Thus, we're forced to evaluate the only remotely proposal: should Tastosis change their style? And I don't see there's a significant enough impetus to do that. Some people are rebelling against their running gags, others against their player hate. First, running gags. It's a running gag. It's not like they're expecting laughs every time they say 'The Tasteless Secret Hallway' (which itself is a running gag of 'The Tasteless Build' and its, shall we say, fluid nature). It's simply a running gag that, throw in at unexpected times, can incite laughter if it's not expected. Kind of like a 'gotcha' to the audience for being slow and not expecting it. Comically, it's a very sound technique that I believe they use to great effect.

Second, player hatin. You have a problem with this. I don't at all. The first part of the speech wasn't just a 'Zerg UP' diatribe. It's the reason why I can justify the player hating. If we can agree that abusive players are a bigger problem for eSports than casting style (which requires a refutation of my first argument to disagree with), then it is incumbent upon all who have the ability to decry such abuses to do so. Tasteless and Artosis have a fantastic position from which to decry abusive players. Therefore, they should.

Boiled down:





References to Premise numbers refer only to intra-argument premises.

Possible flaws of the Argument:

A1: Its truth is based on personal experience and anecdote. Perhaps it's not true for you. Not sure.
A5: Only for definitions of 'Hero' as something along the lines of bonjwa.

B3: Tasteless and Artosis reach the Western Audience, and are thus in a unique position to shape the foreigner scene's opinion. If the foreigner community takes their words to heart, it will lead to a decrease in cheesers. And given that GOM's allowing people to move to Korea for GSL and thus looking to incorporate foreign players, the foreigner scene is going to play a larger role in making or tearing down Heroes. Consequently, Tastosis's declamations may have some impact on the GSL. It's also possible that from their pulpit, they can effect (yes, bitches, I spelled this correctly) Blizzard/GOM action on maps/balance in an effort to decrease the effectiveness of Cheesers. I will not deny that this is by far the weakest premise in the argument, yet it is, at the same time, the most important. Which sucks.

Essentially, argue B3 and make a compelling argument asserting the contrary, and you are correct. I personally hold B3 = true, and as a result, agree with what they're doing.

Perhaps this did not persuade you to the contrary in the matter of Tastosis. But I hope it, at the very least, dispelled your prejudices against those who do not consider Tastosis a force of evil for SC2 as an eSport.

tl;dr: read the fucking post