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On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
You have to realize all the players you mentioned use their races strengths down to a science. In addition, others such as MC have done this as well. It's players realizing the strengths and weaknesses of their races in a match up, and using them to their advantage.
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On January 18 2011 11:39 maliceee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 11:12 brain_ wrote:On January 18 2011 11:08 odaxium wrote:On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
you never watched any of his matches this season before tonight? ie. opponent fast expands so he transitions into taking the whole fucking map on metalopolis Thats an outlier. In general his play is simple: 1) Go for a safe build, use Terran's harassment tactics that don't cost you economically (Bunker harass as in game 3 vs Trickster, Banshees, etc). Sometimes you get lucky with this as in game 3, but it never hurts you) 2) Scout your opponent and decide on a timing push 3) Execute timing push 4) Win It just feels like he all-ins at some point in every game. He knows the perfect times to do so, but still. It just feels so mechanical and dry. hey look, you described what an rts is!
Except this is unique to Terran. Zerg and Protoss are more easily scoutable (comscans alone), don't have harassment options that require no sacrifice of economy, and have much fewer overwhelming timings when compared to Terran.
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On January 18 2011 11:12 brain_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 11:08 odaxium wrote:On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
you never watched any of his matches this season before tonight? ie. opponent fast expands so he transitions into taking the whole fucking map on metalopolis Thats an outlier. In general his play is simple: 1) Go for a safe build, use Terran's harassment tactics that don't cost you economically (Bunker harass as in game 3 vs Trickster, Banshees, etc). Sometimes you get lucky with this as in game 3, but it never hurts you) 2) Scout your opponent and decide on a timing push 3) Execute timing push 4) Win It just feels like he all-ins at some point in every game. He knows the perfect times to do so, but still. It just feels so mechanical and dry.
He's just doing what is the most sure and best way to win. The game where he macro's like crazy was cross position metalopolis - probably the longest distance you can have out of any current map.
MVP would play macro games if the maps were better. But since all the maps are so small, why shouldn't he all-in when it's so powerful?
His "boring" playstyle has everything to do with the maps. Sorry to bring this over-talked about subject, but it's true.
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I checked Tester's nexus at the end of game 2 (the game on Xel Naga), it had full energy. You people crying imba need to realize that MVP won that game (and more obviously the other two games) because MVP is just better, he gets the most out of his builds and simply has more stuff at the right time.
Yes Tester's micro is incredible, but his build orders are nowhere near as tight as guys like MC, MVP and Nestea, that's why these players win GSLs and Tester doesn't.
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On January 18 2011 11:12 brain_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 11:08 odaxium wrote:On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
you never watched any of his matches this season before tonight? ie. opponent fast expands so he transitions into taking the whole fucking map on metalopolis Thats an outlier. In general his play is simple: 1) Go for a safe build, use Terran's harassment tactics that don't cost you economically (Bunker harass as in game 3 vs Trickster, Banshees, etc). Sometimes you get lucky with this as in game 3, but it never hurts you) 2) Scout your opponent and decide on a timing push 3) Execute timing push 4) Win It just feels like he all-ins at some point in every game. He knows the perfect times to do so, but still. It just feels so mechanical and dry.
You're right, if we ignore all the times where he plays with an interesting strat, he's a really boring player.
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The only reason why people are complaining, in the end, is because they are terrible games to watch.
So really, the problem doesn't lie with the player(s).
The game should be entertaining to watch regardless of the players involved and the strategies involved. And at times, such as last night, the game is not enjoyable to watch.
The fact that MVP has chosen this play style to get a win is not his fault - he is trying to WIN. You do whatever you can to win.
If people can do this sort of stuff consistently such that the spectacle of the game is lost then the solution of making the games enjoyable is out of the players hands imo.
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On January 18 2011 13:20 brain_ wrote:
Except this is unique to Terran. Zerg and Protoss are more easily scoutable (comscans alone), don't have harassment options that require no sacrifice of economy, and have much fewer overwhelming timings when compared to Terran.
why do you even bother posting?
MVP clearly better than tester in this series, punishing him for risky FEs on first 2 games and it was ridiculously one-sided too. TBH I don't think Tester has the game figured out very well.
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Wow...nice job holding off the 4 gate. Those speedlings were key. Also he used his speedlings to attack and engage on keep and then when all his lings were dead and he was off creep he would immediately retreat. Perfect micro for nestea and bad micro on choyas part.
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Not to take anything away from IMmvp, but does anyone think how different the two match-ups looked? It just looked as if Nestea had to work hard to get a win (strategy, game sense, scouting, mind game and what not) even against Choya, but for IMmvp it was simply making stuff and sending them out (and micro, which is probably a big part of it).
It's been my impression for a while. Z really needs to 'earn' a win. T does earn wins, but it just looks much simpler. (not easier, but simpler)
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Love everyone selling MVP short here. It's laughable. Am I the only one who enjoyed both sets? Two superior players won and I enjoyed watching them execute. It's a tough crowd out there apparently.. :/
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On January 18 2011 15:23 usethis2 wrote:
Not to take anything away from IMmvp, but does anyone think how different the two match-ups looked? It just looked as if Nestea had to work hard to get a win (strategy, game sense, scouting, mind game and what not) even against Choya, but for IMmvp it was simply making stuff and sending them out (and micro, which is probably a big part of it).
It's been my impression for a while. Z really needs to 'earn' a win. T does earn wins, but it just looks much simpler. (not easier, but simpler)
Look at MC vs Jinro...it wasn't that easy for Jinro, was it?
The problem with your example is that Choya was using unseen/new builds, so NesTea had to adapt. Tester tried to play the same way he played since GSL 1 (even beta), and everyone and their mother knew what was going on. 2 base into Colossi/Phoenix. It is completely acceptable for IMMvP to dominate him the way he did.
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On January 18 2011 15:35 sqrt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 15:23 usethis2 wrote:
Not to take anything away from IMmvp, but does anyone think how different the two match-ups looked? It just looked as if Nestea had to work hard to get a win (strategy, game sense, scouting, mind game and what not) even against Choya, but for IMmvp it was simply making stuff and sending them out (and micro, which is probably a big part of it).
It's been my impression for a while. Z really needs to 'earn' a win. T does earn wins, but it just looks much simpler. (not easier, but simpler) Look at MC vs Jinro...it wasn't that easy for Jinro, was it? The problem with your example is that Choya was using unseen/new builds, so NesTea had to adapt. Tester tried to play the same way he played since GSL 1 (even beta), and everyone and their mother knew what was going on. 2 base into Colossi/Phoenix. It is completely acceptable for IMMvP to dominate him the way he did.
I am talking in general sense. Of course there are exceptions. I loved Jinro's play, but you can't deny how every other terran games tend to pan out. Turtle up, harrass a bit while making stuff, then send them out (w/ scv's) It looks as if they're just executing predetermined builds irregardless of what their opponents are doing. (except timings, but even that looked predetermined often times)
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Only the year of the Toss because of MC, without him, Toss is doomed.....
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i think its also arguable that MVP didn't want to play a macro game with Tester while the other games (like the metalopolis one) he was much more confident that he was better than his opponent.
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Is there a translation of the interviews from yesterday anywhere?
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On January 18 2011 15:47 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 15:35 sqrt wrote:On January 18 2011 15:23 usethis2 wrote:
Not to take anything away from IMmvp, but does anyone think how different the two match-ups looked? It just looked as if Nestea had to work hard to get a win (strategy, game sense, scouting, mind game and what not) even against Choya, but for IMmvp it was simply making stuff and sending them out (and micro, which is probably a big part of it).
It's been my impression for a while. Z really needs to 'earn' a win. T does earn wins, but it just looks much simpler. (not easier, but simpler) Look at MC vs Jinro...it wasn't that easy for Jinro, was it? The problem with your example is that Choya was using unseen/new builds, so NesTea had to adapt. Tester tried to play the same way he played since GSL 1 (even beta), and everyone and their mother knew what was going on. 2 base into Colossi/Phoenix. It is completely acceptable for IMMvP to dominate him the way he did. I am talking in general sense. Of course there are exceptions. I loved Jinro's play, but you can't deny how every other terran games tend to pan out. Turtle up, harrass a bit while making stuff, then send them out (w/ scv's) It looks as if they're just executing predetermined builds irregardless of what their opponents are doing. (except timings, but even that looked predetermined often times)
I still think your argument is kind of moot. The metagame is currently in this position, nothing implying racial imbalance. Look at Zerg players, for them the metagame has stagnated a little (14 hatch/ 15 pool) and only now do we see a little more unconventional play ( Idra games vs Clide, NesTea vs Choya). The metagame for Toss is nearly non-existant, I don't think there is anyone (besides MC) who knows how to play Protoss( at the GSL level at least), there was a standard Colossi play, but that got figured out. The metagame for Terrans has changed the most, generally as a counter to toss/zerg metagame.
Currently, players are just playing the current state of the game, where the average terran player can win vs the avarage z/p player. If you look at the remainig Terrans in the tourney, they are much, much more than that. Give it some time, I'm sure at some point we will all be whining how OP Zerg is.
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On January 18 2011 16:16 IndridCold wrote:
who plays tonight?
Only Code A games.
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yes, mvps timing attacks looked extremely strong
yes, terran has more of those strong timings than other races
but tester was also playing bad, anyone who doesnt see that just doesnt want to see it
still, i think terran infantery rapes toss just way too hard. its nice that even artosis realizes this now that he switched to toss.
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EPT
