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On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
you never watched any of his matches this season before tonight?
ie. opponent fast expands so he transitions into taking the whole fucking map on metalopolis
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On January 18 2011 06:38 PanzerKing wrote:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, it was a very smart play and MVP is almost certainly the best player out there right now. The problem is that you have stupid people in here who simply don't understand that one-base plays have their role in SC2. If your opponent gets greedy and you don't punish him, you're not a "macro player", you're just stupid.
well said.. perfect response and decision making will make the difference between the good and the great in any competitive sports. remember this is not a show-match
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On January 18 2011 11:08 odaxium wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
you never watched any of his matches this season before tonight? ie. opponent fast expands so he transitions into taking the whole fucking map on metalopolis
Thats an outlier.
In general his play is simple:
1) Go for a safe build, use Terran's harassment tactics that don't cost you economically (Bunker harass as in game 3 vs Trickster, Banshees, etc). Sometimes you get lucky with this as in game 3, but it never hurts you)
2) Scout your opponent and decide on a timing push
3) Execute timing push
4) Win
It just feels like he all-ins at some point in every game. He knows the perfect times to do so, but still. It just feels so mechanical and dry.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 18 2011 10:53 brain_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 10:39 YoiChiBow wrote:On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exactTerran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
IdrA and NesTea are using zerg's strengths (arguably imba) down to a science in the long macro games. They are just mechanically gifted players who know the timings. It can go both ways. Except Idra and NesTea are FORCED down that path by Zerg. Terran, on the other hand, has a lot of freedom where individual emphases can cause strategies to shine - ranging from macro Terrans to 2-rax cheesers like BitByBit. MVP is really good in that he reacts to his opponents, it just isn't fun to watch. The part that bothers me is that MVP's wins look like free wins. Nothing is especially remarkable about his playstyle or his skill, he just looks at what his opponent is doing, responds accordingly with a timing attack, then wins. It feels that in PvT and ZvP/T/Z simply knowing what to do isn't enough - you still need to outplay them beyond simply making the right decision. But for MVP, he knows that things like Stim timings will almost guarantee him a win if he reacts properly. I say he's a robot because it seems like the AI could do his job if it was able to identify strategies. He is going X? Do Y, pull SCVs at the last second, win. He is doing A? Do B, pull SCVs for the attack, win. Nothing creative or incredible, just reactionary play that the other races aren't capable of. Again. I give him credit for knowing that if you attack at a certain time, you can absolutely crush through anything Z/P can have at that point (exceptional play might make a small difference, who knows). He has the cleanest play we've seen yet (though I don't know why it has taken so long, Terrans should have figured this shit out back in GSL 1). I just don't like the fact that timings like that exist - they force Z and P to play extremely safe and standard living in fear of doing something that would leave them weak at any point in the game, meanwhile Terran can do whatever the fuck it wants. Usually you can't even scout it.
timing like that will always exist be it T/Z/P. Unless both player are doing the exact same build and strategy in the very exact same time, if one is not prepared for that timing he has nobody but himself to blame for going the risky route and hope his opponent do not react in the perfect way.
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On January 18 2011 10:53 brain_ wrote:
Except Idra and NesTea are FORCED down that path by Zerg. Terran, on the other hand, has a lot of freedom where individual emphases can cause strategies to shine - ranging from macro Terrans to 2-rax cheesers like BitByBit. MVP is really good in that he reacts to his opponents, it just isn't fun to watch.
The part that bothers me is that MVP's wins look like free wins. Nothing is especially remarkable about his playstyle or his skill, he just looks at what his opponent is doing, responds accordingly with a timing attack, then wins. It feels that in PvT and ZvP/T/Z simply knowing what to do isn't enough - you still need to outplay them beyond simply making the right decision. But for MVP, he knows that things like Stim timings will almost guarantee him a win if he reacts properly.
I say he's a robot because it seems like the AI could do his job if it was able to identify strategies. He is going X? Do Y, pull SCVs at the last second, win. He is doing A? Do B, pull SCVs for the attack, win. Nothing creative or incredible, just reactionary play that the other races aren't capable of.
Again. I give him credit for knowing that if you attack at a certain time, you can absolutely crush through anything Z/P can have at that point (exceptional play might make a small difference, who knows). He has the cleanest play we've seen yet (though I don't know why it has taken so long, Terrans should have figured this shit out back in GSL 1). I just don't like the fact that timings like that exist - they force Z and P to play extremely safe and standard living in fear of doing something that would leave them weak at any point in the game, meanwhile Terran can do whatever the fuck it wants. Usually you can't even scout it.
You do realize that's the whole point of scouting, right? He is just very good at seeing what his opponent is doing and reacting properly, just like you said, and how is that a bad thing? He's a really good player, and if you think he only knows timings I direct you to his games vs Hyperdub or basically any of them in the ro16. He's not a 1 dimensional player like IdrA is, he actually varies his builds up, thus making him MUCH scarier than anyone else. The fact that he can put on game- ending early pressure AND also do late game macro games makes him a terrifying player.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
mvp the famous turtling terran is being called boring for...timing attacks? you need to understand that he's playing this tournament seriously and if he sees an opportunity for a surefire timing attack win, why not do it? he has the ability to play long macro games with the best of them, it's just not necessary or not preferable.
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On January 18 2011 11:12 brain_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 11:08 odaxium wrote:On January 18 2011 10:34 brain_ wrote:
MVP is boring to watch. He just has Terran's (arguably imba) strengths down to a science, and he knows when to all-in. He doesn't have a new or exciting style (like Jinro), and he doesn't create long impressive macro games (like IdrA or NesTea), etc. Hes just a mechanically gifted player who knows the timings.
Same exact Terran play we have seen since beta, just with SCV pulls and slightly different timings. MVP reminds me of Rainbow in GSL 1, except he doesn't choke. The guy is just a robot.
you never watched any of his matches this season before tonight? ie. opponent fast expands so he transitions into taking the whole fucking map on metalopolis Thats an outlier. In general his play is simple: 1) Go for a safe build, use Terran's harassment tactics that don't cost you economically (Bunker harass as in game 3 vs Trickster, Banshees, etc). Sometimes you get lucky with this as in game 3, but it never hurts you) 2) Scout your opponent and decide on a timing push 3) Execute timing push 4) Win It just feels like he all-ins at some point in every game. He knows the perfect times to do so, but still. It just feels so mechanical and dry.
hey look, you described what an rts is!
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Also, he seems to only allin when he's sure of it earning him the win. If there's a 100% chance that teh allin will win him the game, then that is a fault in the opponents build, which SHOULD be exploited for the game to progress.
MVP played perfectly, I find it sad how people undermine the thought he probably puts into his decisions and the effort it most probably took for him to be able to make those decisions.
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IMMvp vs IMNestea
TEAMKILL GOM WHY!
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On January 18 2011 10:03 Moonloop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 09:53 HowardRoark wrote:
Just finished watching ZergBong vs choya, and I am stunned by the skill difference between the two players. When choya blinked into a ling-muta army and managed to come out on top I almost laughed. I know, NesTea just completely outplayed Choya. You could really see that NesTea was just a level above him. Really looking forward to him against MVP now - but if NesTea maintains his low confidence, I think MVP will win easily.
I agree that the skill level between NesTea and Choya was ridiculous. Choya had a lot of good ideas and threw everything he could at NesTea, but it was laughably one-sided. 3-0 was well-deserved.
NesTea vs. MVP should be really exciting 
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Come on ppl....
do you guys really think IMMVP is overrated?? does that mean all the korean pro sc2 players are dumb or something by saying IMMVP is the best in sc2 korea scene right now ? think about it guys... there should be cause&effect that makes him(immvp) being recognized as one of the best.
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On January 18 2011 12:25 MrProb wrote:
Come on ppl....
do you guys really think IMMVP is overrated?? does that mean all the korean pro sc2 players are dumb or something by saying IMMVP is the best in sc2 korea scene right now ? think about it guys... there should be cause&effect that makes him(immvp) being recognized as one of the best.
On this forum, unless the player is foreign, there will always be complaints.
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On January 18 2011 09:13 redemption wrote:
I have been an avid poker player for a long time, and I feel that there are many similarities between the games of poker and SC. Both are games of limited information, and both are games in which the better player will tend to take advantage of small (and sometimes large) edges to gain the lead. In the short run, the better player may not always win due to variance, but in the long run, the better player that makes consistently better decisions should come out ahead. This is why a bo7 is better than a bo1 or even a bo3 for an SC player who has more skill than his opponent.
More great post follows
I wish there was a "Recommend for highlight" button as I feel you posting this on page <arbitrary number> will prevent people from seeing such a good post. Well said.
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MVP isn't a robot. The guy is smart. He's so good that if he scouts a flaw in your play he exposes it and kills you. Not many people can do that.
If tester had played safe we would have had different games, but he didn't so he lost. Is MVP's macro on nestea's level? Idk, we'll have to see, but he certainly can do more than just cheese. His micro is superb, and he's put up a few long games showing he knows what to do
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Hi, I'm new to Team Liquid. I was wondering if there is a thread/area on the site that keeps track of GSL results in a fairly organized fashion. I'm lazy so I hate looking up each match or group separately and trying to compile everything myself. I guess I'm looking for something along the lines of a regularly updated bracket with win/loss counters for each series.
I didn't make a separate thread for this because I have to wait three days to do that as a new member.
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On January 18 2011 13:02 foreally wrote:
Hi, I'm new to Team Liquid. I was wondering if there is a thread/area on the site that keeps track of GSL results in a fairly organized fashion. I'm lazy so I hate looking up each match or group separately and trying to compile everything myself. I guess I'm looking for something along the lines of a regularly updated bracket with win/loss counters for each series.
I didn't make a separate thread for this because I have to wait three days to do that as a new member.
Liquipedia does.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_Starcraft_II_League
Justt navigate yourself to the tournament/section to your desire. Navigation menu is right below the title.
Also - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185412, a pretty educational, and funny, thread.
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On January 18 2011 13:02 foreally wrote:
Hi, I'm new to Team Liquid. I was wondering if there is a thread/area on the site that keeps track of GSL results in a fairly organized fashion. I'm lazy so I hate looking up each match or group separately and trying to compile everything myself. I guess I'm looking for something along the lines of a regularly updated bracket with win/loss counters for each series.
I didn't make a separate thread for this because I have to wait three days to do that as a new member.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=181190
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On January 18 2011 12:28 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 12:25 MrProb wrote:
Come on ppl....
do you guys really think IMMVP is overrated?? does that mean all the korean pro sc2 players are dumb or something by saying IMMVP is the best in sc2 korea scene right now ? think about it guys... there should be cause&effect that makes him(immvp) being recognized as one of the best. On this forum, unless the player is foreign, there will always be complaints.
So true.
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On January 18 2011 13:02 foreally wrote:
Hi, I'm new to Team Liquid. I was wondering if there is a thread/area on the site that keeps track of GSL results in a fairly organized fashion. I'm lazy so I hate looking up each match or group separately and trying to compile everything myself. I guess I'm looking for something along the lines of a regularly updated bracket with win/loss counters for each series.
I didn't make a separate thread for this because I have to wait three days to do that as a new member.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Sony_Ericsson_Global_StarCraft_II_League_January/Main_Event
I'd recommend searching the database or liquipedia for things like this before asking on the forum. Information is generally updated almost immediately around here so all you have to do is search.
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On January 18 2011 13:10 Vehemus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 13:02 foreally wrote:
Hi, I'm new to Team Liquid. I was wondering if there is a thread/area on the site that keeps track of GSL results in a fairly organized fashion. I'm lazy so I hate looking up each match or group separately and trying to compile everything myself. I guess I'm looking for something along the lines of a regularly updated bracket with win/loss counters for each series.
I didn't make a separate thread for this because I have to wait three days to do that as a new member. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Sony_Ericsson_Global_StarCraft_II_League_January/Main_EventI'd recommend searching the database or liquipedia for things like this before asking on the forum. Information is generally updated almost immediately around here so all you have to do is search.
It doesn't hurt to ask when you have such a friendly community, right? ^.^
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EPT
