EPT[GSL] Code S Ro8: Day 1 - Page 89
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koppik
United States676 Posts
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dutpotd
Canada49 Posts
On January 18 2011 06:11 uSnAmplified wrote: If MVP is supposed to be the best of the best then this game is in a incredible disappointing state, hes basically BBB on steroids. Good to know that the best way to play this game is still doing a one base all in every game, what a pro  The best way to play the game is to scout well and do what is called for in a given situation. In this case, all three games (sigh), IMMVP scouted fast expands out of Tester. The best way to play, or a response that would work after scouting this, is then based on style: 1. Expand, or double expand, 'behind' your opponent. Probably the safer/defensive style player's response. 2. 1 base pressure or try to kill the opponent knowing full well that if you get your timing right you are exploiting the fact that they dumped early resources 'and' spread themselves out making it harder for them to defend against your push all things being equal. Probably the more agressive style player's response. 3. A harrass build leading into a well timed expansion or push depending on the harrass success. The harrass has a greater chance to work against a 2 base player that is now spread out on the map. Probably the more contemplative style player response, someone who doesn't feel confident enough to be aggressive, nor comfortable enough to expand 'later' without keeping some sort of pressure on the opponent. In game 1 we saw IMMVP do #3 -> #2 due to harrass success. In game 2 we saw him do #3 -> #2 due to him scouting poor stalker heavy army composition which dies hard to marauder+pdd. In game 3 we saw #3 -> #1 which was probably due to the map's size. In all cases Tester chose to pit his defensive skills against IMMVP's option to be the early agressor. This is what happens when you let your opponent scout your fast expand before they are comitted to an expand. In all cases Tester did not do a good enough job showcasing his defensive skills, largely due to his awkward harrass defense and army composition choices. To compare the way IMMVP responds with 1 base kill all-ins after scouting and assessing his options with blind 1 base kill all-ins which we have witnessed BBBprime attempt to varying degrees of success is not appropriate, especially when you use it as a reflection of the state of the game. | ||
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PanzerKing
United States483 Posts
On January 18 2011 06:28 Endorsed wrote: Whats wrong with the all in game 1 from MVP. Anybody who is a good terran would do the same in that situation/map. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, it was a very smart play and MVP is almost certainly the best player out there right now. The problem is that you have stupid people in here who simply don't understand that one-base plays have their role in SC2. If your opponent gets greedy and you don't punish him, you're not a "macro player", you're just stupid. | ||
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Asha
United Kingdom38255 Posts
On January 18 2011 06:11 uSnAmplified wrote: If MVP is supposed to be the best of the best then this game is in a incredible disappointing state, hes basically BBB on steroids. Good to know that the best way to play this game is still doing a one base all in every game, what a pro What an absurdly overreactionary post in the wake of 2 all ins. Yeah, he performed two devastating one base plays today to punish a greedy build, but MVP is also the guy who's shown arguably the most impressive macro gambits this tournament with his double expansion in response to hyperdubs fast expansion in R16, and his fast expand to the gold vs thebest on scrap. His macro is clearly excellent, his unit control is brilliant, his decision making is great, and I don't think there's really been a single thing to fault in his execution so far this tournament. For the record in terms of MVP 1 basing this tournament: Fast expanded vs Fruit - misplaced spinecrawler costs Fruit the game anyway Fast expanded vs Jooktu Fast expanded vs Zenio Fast expanded vs TheBest Fast double expansion vs Hyperdub 1 1/2 based vs Choya - Gets a CC up, but doesn't expand to the natural since Choya is aggressively one basing vs him One based vs Tester (after scouting a very greedy opening) One based vs Tester Fast expanded vs Tester | ||
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
For game 1, TESTER was the one that played horribly, it's not that Protoss can't FE against Terran (especially on scrap), but he went 1 gateway, NO core, NO unit in production, and dropped the Nexus with the scouting scv still alive...mvp then reacts by pulling the marines he has produced and drops a bunker with the FIRST zealot only just completing, mvp then comes back with 5 marines and a hellion and Tester lets all 6-7 probes at his expo get slaughtered, nullifying any advantage. While this happens, mvp still ended up doing the extremely expected/standard raven/banshee push (which I DO agree is pretty ridiculously strong already).... ..so saying that PvT is broken because someone of Tester's "caliber" can't hold off that push while doing a VERY poor FE build with basically no army production except for a mainly stalker heavy composition, is just stupid to say. At the very least Tester could have built some structures at the choke/ramp bottom if he was going to FE to prevent the easiest run-by of all time. Tester also scouted the build with the obs, so he could have at least made fewer stalkers. Edit: Screw it, I'll talk about the 2nd one as well... mvp opens blue hells to take out any zealots/probes, but to primarily FORCE stalkers by Tester - it was a great mind game by mvp. Mvp then moves out again with a raven and pretty much only marauders which hard counter the stalkers. The scvs NEVER attacked or blocked any shots and were purely for repairing the hellions (and medivac/raven etc) since the hells melted the zealots in the first place. This is fanboyism aside since I think mvp played like trash in GSL3 and is perhaps only on a roll right now - but give credit where it's due. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
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dutpotd
Canada49 Posts
On January 18 2011 06:45 sylverfyre wrote: I'm a lot more underwhelmed with Tester's play than anything else. Both times that MVP pulled his scvs, it wasn't a gamble MVP had to make, MVP obviously KNEW he could just snap Tester in half, and could go all-in and guarantee a win. I'm not so much underwhelmed as I am curious. Why does Tester feel the best way to play against Terran, or IMMVP's Terran, is a 'practically' blind fast expand? Why wouldn't he at least get to Robo, take advantage of the now cheaper observer, and make a more calculated choice to fast expand? Why wouldn't he mount his own pressure or tech and safely expand behind it? It's too bad we don't get a loser's interview because I am very curious as to why he stubbornly expanded the way that he did in three consecutive games. It makes me wonder if there is something I need to know about PvT that I don't? Namely, is fast expanding required to compete with a MULE economy? Does Teser feel he needs a third geyser to get the tech (sentries and x) he wants to play against Terran? Then again, I usually get more questions than answers about SC2 when watching tournies, GSL or otherwise... Protoss players made really bad choices today, and that is that. Not a proud day to be a Protoss player actually. | ||
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Srule
Canada181 Posts
Best decision making this GSL = IMMVP. HANDS DOWN! | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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thesmoosh
113 Posts
It was obviously risky, and wrong and MvP punished him for it, but if mvp hadn't adapted so well or scouted as actively it could have cost him the game. | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
On January 18 2011 07:04 Srule wrote: IMMVP is so sick... He is like oGsMC with very strong early attacks but he can Macro up and play the late game even better. I hope he plays somebody that can handle his aggressions so we get some nice long skillful games. Best decision making this GSL = IMMVP. HANDS DOWN! No it's nestea. | ||
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Taniard
United States114 Posts
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On January 18 2011 06:56 dutpotd wrote: I'm not so much underwhelmed as I am curious. Why does Tester feel the best way to play against Terran, or IMMVP's Terran, is a 'practically' blind fast expand? Why wouldn't he at least get to Robo, take advantage of the now cheaper observer, and make a more calculated choice to fast expand? Why wouldn't he mount his own pressure or tech and safely expand behind it? It's too bad we don't get a loser's interview because I am very curious as to why he stubbornly expanded the way that he did in three consecutive games. It makes me wonder if there is something I need to know about PvT that I don't? Namely, is fast expanding required to compete with a MULE economy? Does Teser feel he needs a third geyser to get the tech (sentries and x) he wants to play against Terran? Then again, I usually get more questions than answers about SC2 when watching tournies, GSL or otherwise... Protoss players made really bad choices today, and that is that. Not a proud day to be a Protoss player actually. shame really I would've liked to hear Tester's side of the story as well. It seemed to me that he simply didn't have a good strat worked out or perhaps he had something planned for when his his FE worked. Surely he should have known that MVP likes to harass his opponents and isn't afraid to all-in when he sees the opportunity for victory. We'll never know unfortunately. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
On January 18 2011 07:53 Taniard wrote: Go Nestea!! SIck game in set 1. Nestea needs to be nerfed hero defense  | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On January 18 2011 06:11 uSnAmplified wrote: If MVP is supposed to be the best of the best then this game is in a incredible disappointing state, hes basically BBB on steroids. Good to know that the best way to play this game is still doing a one base all in every game, what a pro Everyone who thinks that MVPs play today was cheesy or unfair or whatever probably never played the fucking game or is very very bad in understanding it. It's like guys that barely know how the pieces move watching a worldfinal of chess and commentating, "ah bad move, this guy is so unfair, he sacrifices his queen to archieve checkmate. I want a long game where every pawn turns into a queen etc etc. everything else is so boring man!" Everyone who has a bit of knowledge how to play starcraft and used to watch BW games knowes, that there are games where one player just outplays another player with a superior build order. Testers BO was risky - MVP saw that weakness and countered it perfectly. Twice in a row, because Tester played the same shit twice in a row. wasn't exactly the same shit: Here is a very good (in my oppinion) summary of what happened: + Show Spoiler + On January 18 2011 06:44 PartyBiscuit wrote: Like I said earlier, the complaining is just as bad as when White-Ra 4gated in his 3 tourneys yesterday for PvZ (and in general 4gate in PvZ). For game 1, TESTER was the one that played horribly, it's not that Protoss can't FE against Terran (especially on scrap), but he went 1 gateway, NO core, NO unit in production, and dropped the Nexus with the scouting scv still alive...mvp then reacts by pulling the marines he has produced and drops a bunker with the FIRST zealot only just completing, mvp then comes back with 5 marines and a hellion and Tester lets all 6-7 probes at his expo get slaughtered, nullifying any advantage. While this happens, mvp still ended up doing the extremely expected/standard raven/banshee push (which I DO agree is pretty ridiculously strong already).... ..so saying that PvT is broken because someone of Tester's "caliber" can't hold off that push while doing a VERY poor FE build with basically no army production except for a mainly stalker heavy composition, is just stupid to say. At the very least Tester could have built some structures at the choke/ramp bottom if he was going to FE to prevent the easiest run-by of all time. Tester also scouted the build with the obs, so he could have at least made fewer stalkers. Edit: Screw it, I'll talk about the 2nd one as well... mvp opens blue hells to take out any zealots/probes, but to primarily FORCE stalkers by Tester - it was a great mind game by mvp. Mvp then moves out again with a raven and pretty much only marauders which hard counter the stalkers. The scvs NEVER attacked or blocked any shots and were purely for repairing the hellions (and medivac/raven etc) since the hells melted the zealots in the first place. This is fanboyism aside since I think mvp played like trash in GSL3 and is perhaps only on a roll right now - but give credit where it's due. There is nothing imbalanced about this, if a MVP would have been fastexpanding while teching to whatever and Tester would scout this, he probably goes for 4warpgate and kills it of, the same way MVP did. Also it's wrong, that every diamondplayer can execute this build and win against every protoss regardless what the protoss does. Obviously this is not the case, because I keep losing 50% of my games against toss even if i go for this strategie all the time, except these games, when the protoss is fastexpanding and stargateteching simultaniously. I win these games obviously, because my BO is strong against the BO of my opponent. So stay calm dear bronze-platinumplayers. If you continue to 4Gate, your pretty save against this "invincible" build. Protoss is also the easiest race down in platinum and below. 4Warpgate is all you have to do, to get into diamond, and jesus, it's the easiest strategie in SC2, along with a marine/scv-all-in and a banelingbust. (these 3 strategies should carry everyone into diamond because they work 70% of the time and no skill is required. Try to raven/hellion/marauder/marine/scv-all in, you will see it's actually a lot more difficult to pull of.) Lastedit: haha, Jinro is such a nice guy, look how nice he behaves towards the QQing Protoss On January 17 2011 23:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote: [...] But losing to 1 rax marauder/marine attack when hes making a CC... that IS a little embarassing. Not that it cant happen its just.. Im pretty sure Tester is embarassed about it. (Third game showes a clear imbalance? WHAT? Because it's imbalanced to build a Bunker inside of the Protossbase because he's sleeping or something like that? - yea it's so imbalanced to attack your opponent if he doesn't notice) | ||
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Providence
United States125 Posts
On January 18 2011 06:56 dutpotd wrote: I'm not so much underwhelmed as I am curious. Why does Tester feel the best way to play against Terran, or IMMVP's Terran, is a 'practically' blind fast expand? Why wouldn't he at least get to Robo, take advantage of the now cheaper observer, and make a more calculated choice to fast expand? Why wouldn't he mount his own pressure or tech and safely expand behind it? It's too bad we don't get a loser's interview because I am very curious as to why he stubbornly expanded the way that he did in three consecutive games. It makes me wonder if there is something I need to know about PvT that I don't? Namely, is fast expanding required to compete with a MULE economy? Does Teser feel he needs a third geyser to get the tech (sentries and x) he wants to play against Terran? Then again, I usually get more questions than answers about SC2 when watching tournies, GSL or otherwise... Protoss players made really bad choices today, and that is that. Not a proud day to be a Protoss player actually. I agree that a losers interview would ne really awesome. As for why he didn't just play it safe with one base observer. While maybe there's more to it today but in general the higher the risk the higher the reward. Regardless of the reason, tester really wanted to win. There are obviously many reasons which fed into him wanting to be risky. I have a feeling he was seriously on tilt the later the games were, and I don't really blame him. He gets a lot of pressure to live up to his reputation. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I love how you immediately assume everyone who dislikes MVPs play is a bronze player and never watched BW /rolleyes. His build is incredibly abusive versus protoss, nothing more.On January 18 2011 08:04 supersoft wrote: Let's don't look at this shit some guys keep on talking anymore. + Show Spoiler + On January 18 2011 06:11 uSnAmplified wrote: If MVP is supposed to be the best of the best then this game is in a incredible disappointing state, hes basically BBB on steroids. Good to know that the best way to play this game is still doing a one base all in every game, what a pro Everyone who thinks that MVPs play today was cheesy or unfair or whatever probably never played the fucking game or is very very bad in understanding it. It's like guys that barely know how the pieces move watching a worldfinal of chess and commentating, "ah bad move, this guy is so unfair, he sacrifices his queen to archieve checkmate. I want a long game where every pawn turns into a queen etc etc. everything else is so boring man!" Everyone who has a bit of knowledge how to play starcraft and used to watch BW games knowes, that there are games where one player just outplays another player with a superior build order. Testers BO was risky - MVP saw that weakness and countered it perfectly. Twice in a row, because Tester played the same shit twice in a row. wasn't exactly the same shit: Here is a very good (in my oppinion) summary of what happened: + Show Spoiler + On January 18 2011 06:44 PartyBiscuit wrote: Like I said earlier, the complaining is just as bad as when White-Ra 4gated in his 3 tourneys yesterday for PvZ (and in general 4gate in PvZ). For game 1, TESTER was the one that played horribly, it's not that Protoss can't FE against Terran (especially on scrap), but he went 1 gateway, NO core, NO unit in production, and dropped the Nexus with the scouting scv still alive...mvp then reacts by pulling the marines he has produced and drops a bunker with the FIRST zealot only just completing, mvp then comes back with 5 marines and a hellion and Tester lets all 6-7 probes at his expo get slaughtered, nullifying any advantage. While this happens, mvp still ended up doing the extremely expected/standard raven/banshee push (which I DO agree is pretty ridiculously strong already).... ..so saying that PvT is broken because someone of Tester's "caliber" can't hold off that push while doing a VERY poor FE build with basically no army production except for a mainly stalker heavy composition, is just stupid to say. At the very least Tester could have built some structures at the choke/ramp bottom if he was going to FE to prevent the easiest run-by of all time. Tester also scouted the build with the obs, so he could have at least made fewer stalkers. Edit: Screw it, I'll talk about the 2nd one as well... mvp opens blue hells to take out any zealots/probes, but to primarily FORCE stalkers by Tester - it was a great mind game by mvp. Mvp then moves out again with a raven and pretty much only marauders which hard counter the stalkers. The scvs NEVER attacked or blocked any shots and were purely for repairing the hellions (and medivac/raven etc) since the hells melted the zealots in the first place. This is fanboyism aside since I think mvp played like trash in GSL3 and is perhaps only on a roll right now - but give credit where it's due. There is nothing imbalanced about this, if a MVP would have been fastexpanding while teching to whatever and Tester would scout this, he probably goes for 4warpgate and kills it of, the same way MVP did. Also it's wrong, that every diamondplayer can execute this build and win against every protoss regardless what the protoss does. Obviously this is not the case, because I keep losing 50% of my games against toss even if i go for this strategie all the time, except these games, when the protoss is fastexpanding and stargateteching simultaniously. I win these games obviously, because my BO is strong against the BO of my opponent. So stay calm dear bronze-platinumplayers. If you continue to 4Gate, your pretty save against this "invincible" build. Protoss is also the easiest race down in platinum and below. 4Warpgate is all you have to do, to get into diamond, and jesus, it's the easiest strategie in SC2, along with a marine/scv-all-in and a banelingbust. (these 3 strategies should carry everyone into diamond because they work 70% of the time and no skill is required. Try to raven/hellion/marauder/marine/scv-all in, you will see it's actually a lot more difficult to pull of.) Yea tester played bad the first game i wont argue that, but saying the second game was superior play is horseshit. Tester did everything right when it came to blocking the harass and getting his expo up, MVPs response? oh i failed i will just scv pull now, yea amazing decision making. Had tester stayed on one base he would have gotten rolled by the same exact build, their is no way in hell he would have had enough units or the upgrades to hold that off. | ||
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supersoft
Germany3729 Posts
On January 18 2011 08:24 uSnAmplified wrote: I love how you immediately assume everyone who dislikes MVPs play is a bronze player and never watched BW /rolleyes. His build is incredibly abusive versus protoss, nothing more. Yea tester played bad the first game i wont argue that, but saying the second game was superior play is horseshit. Tester did everything right when it came to blocking the harass and getting his expo up, MVPs response? oh i failed i will just scv pull now, yea amazing decision making. Had tester stayed on one base he would have gotten rolled by the same exact build, their is no way in hell he would have had enough units or the upgrades to hold that off. Sorry if that fact that the best terran is just another abusive one baser leaves you butthurt, no amount of name calling and assuming that everyone who disagrees with you is bad is going to change that. Oh sorry, you're right, that build is unbeatable. How could I forget. + Show Spoiler + the build is old. everyone knows this build. it's not unbeatable, there are many ways to beat it. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
You can't go collosus off one base and have enough gateway units to support or templars off one base. The sooner the 2nd base and 3rd base, the sooner for tier 2.5 and tier 3 to beat terran tier 1 with stims and medivacs. | ||
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