EPT[GSL] Code S Ro8: Day 1 - Page 82
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Heimatloser
Germany1494 Posts
 (ofc they have to do at one point though...) | ||
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
On January 17 2011 21:39 [Eternal]Phoenix wrote: The MvP vs Tester games were simply an example of an already well-known problem with PvT. You cannot expand if T plays 1/1/1. You simply have to either allin and kill him early or get an obs and react to his army (which 99% of the time involves going colossus). The problem with the marine/raven/banshee pushes is not just 1 problem, but a culmination of all of protoss' shortcomings and terrans' strength. -Protoss has no capability of scouting a terran without getting a robo and and obs. -Stalkers are really bad units in direct combat but you need them to stop any air, harass, or early pressure. -The necessary counters to different units require teching in completely opposite directions, which is not possible while maintaining any sort of reasonable army. -Mules allow terran to "supersaturate" and support more production on 1 base than they're supposed to be able to support -Marines are ridiculously strong earlygame and are only dealt with by colossi and storm -Banshee/marine kills equal costs of stalkers easily -SCVs tank shots for zealots while allowing the ranged T army to dish out full damage from safety. -T can literally make any combo of bio/factory/starport units and as long as they push on a good timing window and pull scvs protoss has little way to live if they expanded. It's not just 1 specific allin that kills P FE's - it's any random assortment of units. It's difficult to scout from early on where, as a protoss, you have to decide whether to allin, play defensive 1 base, or FE. SC2 TvP is stupid build order poker. This is spot on - and one of the reasons I am starting to hate 1v1. Its just random shit every time. I have found it better to not scout and just counter 1 base all in every time. I dont think I have ever beaten the terran all in with an expand. You just cant defend against it. | ||
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Samhax
1054 Posts
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Providence
United States125 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:28 DizzyDrone wrote: http://twitter.com/#!/idrajit/status/28874560477 as far as I know there just weren't enough top zergs for him to practice his zvz on the ladder Yes I understand that, but IdrA, Zenio, and NesTea play on the same ladder. Neither oGs or IM have outstanding zergs either, apart from Zenio and NesTea of course. Perhaps it could be argued that since IdrA v Zenio was first, NesTea was able to learn from Zenio's games to beat him, but Zenio's defeat of IdrA and NesTea's defeat of Zenio seemed too convincing to be just that. In addition, their relative amounts of practice in ZvZ can't have changed that much. It's not as if NesTea was not allowed to practice ZvZ while IdrA trained for it. | ||
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Providence
United States125 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:29 syllogism wrote: It's also hilarious to draw conclusions based on one ZvZ BO3 that occured months ago It's even more hilarious to infer that people are drawing conclusions on one ZvZ BO3 that occurred months ago. | ||
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
Step 2 : Wake up at 8 am, after all matches are over Step 3 : Get ready for university, shower, eat breakfast Step 4 : Surf reddit for 15 mins Step 5 : See that today is MLK DAy Step 6 : look on uni calendar, see that 15-17 = off Step 7 : FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:36 Providence wrote: It's even more hilarious to infer that people are drawing conclusions on one ZvZ BO3 that occurred months ago. Really? Because that's the only evidence so far that has been presented to support the claim Idra's ZvZ isn't that great | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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.Enigma.
Sweden1461 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:42 oneofthem wrote: im has losira who is pretty good by his ladder stats. Yeah, and Ogs has plenty of good zergs, thewind, cezanne, jookto... | ||
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:33 Providence wrote: Yes I understand that, but IdrA, Zenio, and NesTea play on the same ladder. Neither oGs or IM have outstanding zergs either, apart from Zenio and NesTea of course. Perhaps it could be argued that since IdrA v Zenio was first, NesTea was able to learn from Zenio's games to beat him, but Zenio's defeat of IdrA and NesTea's defeat of Zenio seemed too convincing to be just that. In addition, their relative amounts of practice in ZvZ can't have changed that much. It's not as if NesTea was not allowed to practice ZvZ while IdrA trained for it. Both oGs and IM have several zergs that qualified for a GSL, which means they are outstanding enough for practice games. Compare that to IdrA who had no choice but to ladder and hit zerg one out of ten times. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
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netherDrake
Singapore1831 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:52 zerious wrote: Team IM has a combined record of 16-0(?) this GSL, pretty insane. Results like that are expected when you have the best T and the best Z in the world. Still really impressive that neither has dropped a game yet (Nestea came close to losing today but there was never a game where MVP was even behind his opponent) | ||
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Shifft
Canada1085 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On January 17 2011 21:57 Providence wrote: I think I get what you're trying to get at now. Perhaps it could be that VRs aren't really a harassing unit. I mean they can be used that way, but at the end of the day, they aren't very fast, and don't do quick damage (i.e. they need to fully charge before they're monstrous). I see them as more of a pressure unit than a harass unit, the difference being that pressure units are strong because you know exactly where they are (e.g. tanks outside your natural, or marines within vision of a hatch first zerg) as opposed to deriving their power from you not knowing where they are (e.g. mutas for the reasons you give, phoenix, reapers, etc.) I think one thing I may be able to suggest, is that charge is a very important transition step into HTs, and are very strong against MM. In fact, if it weren't for the possibility of helions, chargelot/sentry is ridiculous good against MM, and painfully strong once HTs make it to the scene. I'm not sure if you're skipping charge to get to HTs faster as you don't mention it. If so, I think you may find that this makes the transition a lot smoother. My personal opinion (I am by no means a pro) is that most these protoss players in the GSL are getting knocked out on 2 bases because there's a window when they just tech too hard to HTs or colossus and get killed, or win because the window closes and they just crush their opponents. It's a high risk, high reward thing, similar to when fruit dealer was knocking out terrans with his 2 base into muta ling, into double expand, into hard tech for ultras, and next season foxer just said, "lol i'll just attack and kill him when he hard techs". Same with MC crushing terrans as they'd try to bunker and tech. Yes I am skipping charge to get HTs faster, but I do this after extensive testing - the problem with chargelot/sentry vs MM is really very simple. As soon as the third "M", the medivacs, enter the scene, chargelot/sentry doesn't stand a chance anymore. This means you HAVE to get aoe-damage or die. Since I kinda have to skip colossi because vikings are already out, I have to get storm asap. If you find this hard to believe, you can easily test this in a unit tester of your choice - since this isn't a game-specific problem, the results will be quite accurate. Chargelots may get some hits off, but the healing-effect is just so strong. Voidrays work as a pressure-unit against 1/1/1 play (the one vr + 5gate stalker attack is amazing), but vs 2 rax expand with multiple bunkers filled with marines, there's not much to pressure, sadly. | ||
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Providence
United States125 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:41 syllogism wrote: Really? Because that's the only evidence so far that has been presented to support the claim Idra's ZvZ isn't that great True, but then again you're the only one who claimed IdrA's ZvZ isn't that great. The rest of us are talking about how NesTea's ZvZ is better than IdrA's. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On January 17 2011 22:41 syllogism wrote: Really? Because that's the only evidence so far that has been presented to support the claim Idra's ZvZ isn't that great He does stream and there is the occational replay even if they are pretty rare. Also when you have one player that are proven good ZvZ and one not, you tend to give the edge to proven player. Call it circumstancial evidence if that makes you feel any better. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
On January 17 2011 23:04 Providence wrote: True, but then again you're the only one who claimed IdrA's ZvZ isn't that great. The rest of us are talking about how NesTea's ZvZ is better than IdrA's. There's plenty of reasons to believe Nestea's ZvZ is better than Idra's, but little reason to believe Idra can't beat him | ||
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