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On January 17 2011 20:56 Elefanto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 20:38 Providence wrote:On January 17 2011 20:36 Elefanto wrote:On January 17 2011 20:33 Providence wrote:On January 17 2011 20:25 2l84that wrote:
I am not going to say MVP is a bad player (or thrash him like some other posters here), but I would have respected him more, if he showed us a macro game like the one he had against that zerg opponent in Ro16.(which was a sick match)
MVP is a good player with lots of skill, but neither rushin (ie 3 rd game), or all-ins (1st and 2nd ones) are barely skillful. I was expecting much more than this. IMHO this series was as lame as it gets.
And don't get me started on the skill issue by saying, "but he kited."
Half-decent plats can kite with stimmed MM balls, Oh god.
Actually, it takes a lot of skill to know when to all-in and when to not. In the first game Tester goes Nexus off of one gate before cyber core and MVP scouted it. Why would you not time an all in right as the expo finishes? Third game MVP macro'd way better than tester. I'm not sure what you're basing your comments off of Lol? Skill to know when to all-in? You wait until you got enough units and your wanted mix, a-click into enemy with scvs, if he was too greedy you'll win handily, if he has a big army, your chances are still fucking huge? Since all-ins seem to be so strong, we'll be seeing you in next season's GSL amiright? So if you encounter someone who disagrees with your opinion you just say "go and do it better"? Pretty sick debatting skills you got there. But just to point some things out for you. Game 2 on Xel'Naga. That's a Build EVERY FUCKING DIAMOND CAN EXECUTE. He opted for a blue-flame hellion drop after seeing tester going fast expand. Legit response, it might win him the game right there if he gets 2/3 shots off. It fails through fantastic defense by tester. So you would assume tester is ahead, got his expansion running, deflected a teched harass off of 1-base. What is MVP doing so marvelous? He sits in his base, builds his army consisting of ravens and banshees and marines / marauder with, pulls scvs and a-clicks into his enemy and still manages to CRUSH him. What's tester supposed to do? Get Colossi out asap and die even harder? Get Storm after he had to go Robo for Observer? I don't want to whine about TvP, i want to fucking point out how fucking ridiculous it is in this game to get an expansion and beeing able to defend it. There are easy to execute builds that demolish faster expansions when your enemy isn't playing ten times better than you. If you want to congratulate MVP for his "fantastic stratecial play", to go all-in with a push you know has a fucking huge winning chance without you playing better, just simply a-clicking, you have no clue about stracraft
This. It's like asking Zerg to one-base Ultralisk or Terrans to one-base Battlecruisers
GL doing that b/c that's what Protoss has to do against this timing attack on Xel' Naga Caverns/Steppes of War/Scrap Station and any other short ground distance. Yes Scrap Station has that bridge that makes the distance a lot shorter.
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On January 17 2011 20:55 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 20:53 Providence wrote:On January 17 2011 20:49 affliction wrote:
"I can't believe people still believe there is even a shred of competitive play left in this game. Requiring end of tech tree to deal with tier 1 and 1.5 is retarded."
i agree with that How are probes end of tech tree? Cause that's what Tester seemed to think could beat MM with stim. Is tester supposed to realistically tech to HT or colo off one base?
I'm not talking about teching to HT or collosus, I'm talking about getting sufficient units to defend an expansion. Tester tried to expand and tech, which obviously leaves huge weaknesses in the unit department. Progamers talk about it all the time--when you fast expand, you need to stay low tier to amass enough units to actually not die. Tester new the risks.
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Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain
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so idra will play against IMMVP in the finals hm?
Since Mvp beats nestea and idra beats Terrans in bo5s
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On January 17 2011 21:16 eksert wrote:
so idra will play against IMMVP in the finals hm?
Since Mvp beats nestea and idra beats Terrans in bo5s
i seriously doubt idra can beat foxer though, if foxer beats nada
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On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain
so are banshees ...
and I dont consider blue flame as t1 too ....
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On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain
You can't compare tech trees of different races. It's just a cop out of looking at the complexities of the races and the dynamic of their interactions.
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that's it...there's no protoss left in this tournament. choya, no one cares about him but Tester ><;;
MC and Tester were the last hopes of protoss. MC got to play some alright macro games but Tester i don't think played his A-game simply because as Tastosis once said in season 1: "no one wants to play a long game with Tester". MVP obviously took that macro chance from him at least in the 1st 2 games.
What MVP did was the right move if he wanted to move on to the semis. Every minute that goes by in that game against Tester, MVP's chances of winning is diminishing.
Sorry for sounding like a bit of a Tester fanboy but sue me, he was the last protoss left...you gotta give us some hope =\
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On January 17 2011 21:07 Silfurstar wrote:
A game has rules. As long as you're playing within the rules of the game, it's fair play.
I understand the frustration of getting destroyed by what seems to be a easily pulled off all-in.
But I also understand why Terran would not react otherwise, if he knows his opponent offers him an opportunity to win. What would you want him to do ?
Scout the FE and lay back peacefully while his opponent gets an economic advantage ? Wait for the oh so dreadful mid-game Protoss ball of death ?
It's a game of risk vs reward (as must every good game be, in my opinion). MVP risked it, and got rewarded. I'm not calling it a great inspiring play by any means, but who says it should be ?
I could careless about meaningless victories(all-ins) like this one, the important thing to me as an spectator is that the players show impressive play, which didnt happen( this guy got 2-0'ed by choya in gsl3, just so you know he ain't that good).
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On January 17 2011 21:14 homer001 wrote:
lol
when mc beat jinro 4-0 last season
every1 was like protoss is op
now mvp beat tester 3-0 and every1 is like terran is op
happens everytime
This. Also, the same discussion was/is going on for 4gating PvZ (i.e. White-Ra).
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On January 17 2011 21:18 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain You can't compare tech trees of different races. It's just a cop out of looking at the complexities of the races and the dynamic of their interactions.
But in the same manner u cant call this raven timing attack a t1 attack.
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On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain
Ravens are 100 minerals and 200 gas
Protoss has to get a robo bay whereas Terrans can switch their buildings and put the starport on a techlab.
Colossus are 300/200
or
Protoss has to get a twilight council then templar archives then research storm
HTs are 50/175
Raven isn't at the end of the tech tree. The end of the tech tree for Starport is Battlecruisers not banshees/ravens.
Colossus is the end of the tech tree for robo
HTs are the end of the tech tree for Gateway (besides DTs)
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On January 17 2011 21:19 ftd.rain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 21:07 Silfurstar wrote:
A game has rules. As long as you're playing within the rules of the game, it's fair play.
I understand the frustration of getting destroyed by what seems to be a easily pulled off all-in.
But I also understand why Terran would not react otherwise, if he knows his opponent offers him an opportunity to win. What would you want him to do ?
Scout the FE and lay back peacefully while his opponent gets an economic advantage ? Wait for the oh so dreadful mid-game Protoss ball of death ?
It's a game of risk vs reward (as must every good game be, in my opinion). MVP risked it, and got rewarded. I'm not calling it a great inspiring play by any means, but who says it should be ? I could careless about meaningless victories(all-ins) like this one, the important thing to me as an spectator is that the players show impressive play, which didnt happen( this guy got 2-0'ed by choya in gsl3, just so you know he ain't that good).
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/detailed-elo
Yeah man he ain't good
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On January 17 2011 21:20 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain Ravens are 100 minerals and 200 gas Protoss has to get a robo bay whereas Terrans can switch their buildings and put the starport on a techlab. Colossus are 300/200 or Protoss has to get a twilight council then templar archives then research storm HTs are 50/175 Raven isn't at the end of the tech tree. The end of the tech tree for Starport is Battlecruisers
its not the point I am trying to make.
but I think in this argument u should consider that T needs to make an factorie (150/100) and a starport (150/100) and at least one tech lab (50/25) as well.
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On January 17 2011 21:20 Deckkie wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 21:18 Numy wrote:On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain You can't compare tech trees of different races. It's just a cop out of looking at the complexities of the races and the dynamic of their interactions. But in the same manner u cant call this raven timing attack a t1 attack.
Yes I quoted you but the same applies for everyone.
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On January 17 2011 21:20 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 21:15 Deckkie wrote:
Okey, I am obviously not a Protoss and think that this raven push is abnormally strong to the point that it could be broken. But I do want to point out that the Raven is pretty much at the end of the tech tree. Saying that its unfair that u need higher tech units to beat a t1 terran army just sounds so weird while there is a raven out. Please explain Ravens are 100 minerals and 200 gas Protoss has to get a robo bay whereas Terrans can switch their buildings and put the starport on a techlab. Colossus are 300/200 or Protoss has to get a twilight council then templar archives then research storm HTs are 50/175 Raven isn't at the end of the tech tree. The end of the tech tree for Starport is Battlecruisers not banshees/ravens. Colossus is the end of the tech tree for robo HTs are the end of the tech tree for Gateway (besides DTs)
actually with the current metagame raven is end tree
battlecruiser is just bm unit ... (and one can blame blizz big nerf to that )
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Its very sad to see that so many of the games are still 1 base plays precisely because an all-in counter to fast expansion is just so punishing and unforgiving =/
Against a build like that, I'm really not sure if you can ever fast expand - hellions/marines/raven is simply too devastating of a combo early game for gateway units to hold up against. I'm not crying imba or anything, but does anyone else think PDD is too strong or is it fine as it is? Legitimately curious what the general TL public think about it.
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On January 17 2011 21:23 zerious wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 21:19 ftd.rain wrote:On January 17 2011 21:07 Silfurstar wrote:
A game has rules. As long as you're playing within the rules of the game, it's fair play.
I understand the frustration of getting destroyed by what seems to be a easily pulled off all-in.
But I also understand why Terran would not react otherwise, if he knows his opponent offers him an opportunity to win. What would you want him to do ?
Scout the FE and lay back peacefully while his opponent gets an economic advantage ? Wait for the oh so dreadful mid-game Protoss ball of death ?
It's a game of risk vs reward (as must every good game be, in my opinion). MVP risked it, and got rewarded. I'm not calling it a great inspiring play by any means, but who says it should be ? I could careless about meaningless victories(all-ins) like this one, the important thing to me as an spectator is that the players show impressive play, which didnt happen( this guy got 2-0'ed by choya in gsl3, just so you know he ain't that good). http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/players/detailed-eloYeah man he ain't good
And that's before today's games.
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This is so exciting, we'll either have a repeat champion ( nestea ) or our very first terran champion. This GSL is real good.
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On January 17 2011 21:27 Senx wrote:
This is so exciting, we'll either have a repeat champion ( nestea ) or our very first terran champion. This GSL is real good.
Don't forget Nada/MKP.
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EPT
