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On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing.
This.
Ret is kind of right about Europeans not being as abusive. On the Korean server, top ladder players will abuse everything about their race, and will hit specific timings to demolish your build once they see what it is. By contrast, Europeans will often just sit back and play "their" game - usually a macro game - almost as if they live by Day9's "the better player wants the game to hit late-game" motto.
It's kind of like what IdrA said about being "predictable" with a reason - top Korean players will play "predictably" in the sense that you can bank on them trying to do whatever is going to counter your strategy the most, according to their understanding. Thus, the importance of mind games in high level play to throw off your opponent.
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On December 30 2010 02:13 Spidinko wrote:
@7mk: He's not talking about 11 pool, though. 12 hatch, 11 pool as a blind counter against pylon wall-in seems unnecessary to me.
Well the "standard build" didn't help Ret defeat either pylon contain or the cannons behind minerals.
And I see toss winning in many matches against Zergs using these tactics. And months have passed and none have found a counter for this.
At least for 2 raxs there is a 14 hatch build that with good micro can save you.
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EDIT: @ Archangel: Well there you have an answer from a pro. Convinced now? 
Not convinced. He didn't say he tried the 12 overhatch 11pool, just that he tried 11 overpool and that one didn't work.
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On December 30 2010 02:15 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. This. Ret is kind of right about Europeans not being as abusive. On the Korean server, top ladder players will abuse everything about their race, and will hit specific timings to demolish your build once they see what it is.
So true. Watching TT1/Idra/HuK sometimes makes me feel bad lol. Incredibly abusive play. PvP is just disgusting...and Z...well playing Z makes you really mad sometimes (I'm mostly random and I rage quit exclusively when playing Z xD)
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On December 30 2010 02:16 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:13 Spidinko wrote:
@7mk: He's not talking about 11 pool, though. 12 hatch, 11 pool as a blind counter against pylon wall-in seems unnecessary to me. Well the "standard build" didn't help Ret defeat either pylon contain or the cannons behind minerals. And I see toss winning in many matches against Zergs using these tactics. And months have passed and none have found a counter for this. At least for 2 raxs there is a 14 hatch build that with good micro can save you.
True but, no offense to Ret, I think MC is just a better player (I think he's the best actually). Going right strategy (not saying it was/nt) doesn't mean it's enough. Execution is vital and I feel like Z has it very hard (execution wise) to defend to these attacks. So saying "standard build didn't help Ret" is kind of moot.
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On December 30 2010 01:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
btw some ppl here are right, i should have made a roach warren or a hydralisk den, but honestly the build i played on metalopis was the first time i used it on close positions and i was totally banking on making a huge gamble in case he would make a robotics, and when he didnt i assumed i was dead. Even if you do make it, he can stay on high grounds with forcefields and wait for that one unit with 9 range to come out then forcefield everything and roaches and hydras melt anyways - i doubt i could have actually won the game but i could have probably made it a little more competitive. thats a mistake in thinking but thats just the result of getting your ass handed to you all the time by protoss (and terran)... ill work on it.
thats probably a good idea to work on your mindset cause nothing good comes from thinking negative and "that you ve already lost" .... for example jinro vs mc, with a different mindset he might ve played better :3 u can think negative after you ve actually lost but till then u should only think bout winning
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On December 30 2010 02:19 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:15 Azarkon wrote:On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. This. Ret is kind of right about Europeans not being as abusive. On the Korean server, top ladder players will abuse everything about their race, and will hit specific timings to demolish your build once they see what it is. So true. Watching TT1/Idra/HuK sometimes makes me feel bad lol. Incredibly abusive play. PvP is just disgusting...and Z...well playing Z makes you really mad sometimes (I'm mostly random and I rage quit exclusively when playing Z xD)
Yea. I'd add KawaiiRice on the list of streams to watch though. He's one of the few (if not the only) good Terrans who streams games on that server AFAIK, and demonstrates that even playing as Terran doesn't save you from abusive play (for example, the constant marine all-ins in TvT).
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On December 30 2010 01:52 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:50 Liquid`Ret wrote:On December 30 2010 01:48 Manimal_pro wrote:
by the way, the bracket setup robbed RET 200 $, if he was in zenio's spot he would have made it to the final no problem thats total bs, top is very good and i probably cant beat him Top got beaten in Dreamhack whose finalist was Mana who you demolished, so...
Both Top losses in DH was TvTs, and he didn't play Mana.
I'm guessing his TvZ is better.
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On December 30 2010 02:29 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:19 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:15 Azarkon wrote:On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. This. Ret is kind of right about Europeans not being as abusive. On the Korean server, top ladder players will abuse everything about their race, and will hit specific timings to demolish your build once they see what it is. So true. Watching TT1/Idra/HuK sometimes makes me feel bad lol. Incredibly abusive play. PvP is just disgusting...and Z...well playing Z makes you really mad sometimes (I'm mostly random and I rage quit exclusively when playing Z xD) Yea. I'd add KawaiiRice on the list of streams to watch though. He's one of the few (if not the only) good Terrans who streams games on that server AFAIK.
Yeah He started streaming a few days ago (on KR). When I watched him he didn't get to play against top players yet, though. I'm really interested in how far he can actually make it. KR ladder is tough.
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These games were pretty sick to watch. Cannon contain into colossus ball, 6 gate all-in close positions, and cannon rush on a nat. It's like MC took every single thing Zerg absolutely hates to face and managed to pack it all into 3 games.
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On December 30 2010 02:03 arew wrote:
Making maps bigger would cause some other problems, but its not the main point of this. I and many other people would agree, that its not true that ALL the maps are too small. Some maps favour other race, some does to another one, its a game. The same was at SC:BW but not that much. And most of the problems are about logical/mind game not only just to blaim the maps.
I'm pretty much done with this, since this would lead to nowhere.
Well yeah, I exagerated a little, not ALL maps are too small, but I strongly believe the bigger maps such as shakuras should be considered a pretty small map and everything else should be much bigger.
I guess you can say that's just "my opinion" but even on neutral ground I don't see anything a small map can bring to the depth and balance of SC2 in general.
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Are replays for semifinals up?
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where can i find VoDs of the ret-MC game? They don't seem to be on IPP's channel =(
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Russian Federation134 Posts
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Dayummmm, didn't realize they had some oGs members playing, especially MC O_O! I wish I still had SC2 installed so that I can watch the reps (reps > vods)!
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On December 30 2010 01:34 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:33 gnutz wrote:
Honestly, it seems like Ret has no really well-thought-out build orders in ZvP. Ret could have easily had the second game.
And if MC sees Speedlings & Spines, it should be clear that he is going for a 5/6-Gate Push, to kill a Muta Tech.
But LOL @ Blizzards design for maps in game 3, it seems like close air is still so close that All-Ins are WAY to powerful. he went for 6 gate before he saw anything you silly silly guy, hence why i took aLL drones off gas and never made a damn mutalisk lol but honestly i gave up the game when i saw his probe
I just watched the replay and I noticed few things:
- You scouted that he was going for 6 WG with +1 attack in close positions and your immediate response to that was spire...?
- You did not take all ur drones off gas, u had 6 drones on gas almost the whole game and at the end of the game you had almost 1.3k gas stockpiled.
- What was the point of trying to counter attack when u had scouted earlier that he had a building wall with cannons in his natural?
I know that Ret said that he was just going for a "huge gamble with spire and +1 lings hoping for a robotics" but he scouted exactly what MC was doing and still decided to go for the spire. That is not high level mind games or anything, just bad decision making.
Btw someone is prolly going to say that Ret was just saving that gas to get a good amount of mutas for the counter attack or something silly like that but there is 0% chance of defending a 6WG with +1 attack executed by MC with just lings and spine crawlers. Switching to mainly hydras would probably been the right choice after defending MC's first push. Its close positions so there is no way he is going to get 9 range colossus in time to defend. That is why IdrA uses that hydra+spine push in steppes so often.
PvZ (and TvZ) might be a bit imbalanced but its very clear that MC was the better player in these games.
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Imo there is close to no chance MC was going robo anyway. I don't know about korea but I don't see a reason why P should go 2 base straight robo when there is no sign of roach/hydra. The only reason to go blind robotics is to follow up stargate play to stomp hydras that are forced by air.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
zerg usually goes roaches on close pos that's why a 6 gate push is not the best choice if you want a 100% win.. its better to do a 4 gate push into robo and then get whatever u need, i was infact saving gas because i was wrong in my thinking that the game would ever transition into anything beyond my natural being hammered down, even after i crushed the first push with lings, but its mostly cause i never play that build close pos
counter attack wouldve been nice if i could sneak by, i knew it was only a matter of time before +1 zealot/sentry would rape my zerglings, so that was what i tried..
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EPT
