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On December 30 2010 01:38 village_idiot wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:37 KWest wrote:
Should of done the hydra all in with no speed, but that is the definition of a risky build. I think zerg needs at least 1 all in that isn't a 100% risky. How can it be all-in if it isn't risky?
There are a lot of protoss all ins that have minimal risk factor.
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On December 30 2010 01:53 Shrugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:52 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:50 Liquid`Ret wrote:On December 30 2010 01:48 Manimal_pro wrote:
by the way, the bracket setup robbed RET 200 $, if he was in zenio's spot he would have made it to the final no problem thats total bs, top is very good and i probably cant beat him Top got beaten in Dreamhack whose finalist was Mana who you demolished, so... Solid logic.
yea seriously lol ^^
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On December 30 2010 01:53 arew wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:49 Faze. wrote:On December 30 2010 01:45 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:35 Faze. wrote:On December 30 2010 01:33 gnutz wrote:
Honestly, it seems like Ret has no really well-thought-out build orders in ZvP. Ret could have easily had the second game.
And if MC sees Speedlings & Spines, it should be clear that he is going for a 5/6-Gate Push, to kill a Muta Tech.
But LOL @ Blizzards design for maps in game 3, it seems like close air is still so close that All-Ins are WAY to powerful. Every single map in the SC2 pool are too small, no exception. Yeah, make it bigger and go play every single game for 20minutes, rofl. Some maps are to small, yes, but saying that about every single map just makes me laugh. The problem is not really about the maps. What's wrong with normal length games? The best, most fun and epic games to watch last much longer than that. Unless you have an obsession for tier 1 massing there's not much to see in a 10 minute game. StarCraft:BroodWar was playable and still is for more than 10 years not just because of making the maps bigger... If you blaim all the maps, then re-thnik about the strategy and the balance in a some parts of the game. Blaiming all the maps just doesn't make sense, also, not every single game must to be epic.
Strategy actually is the problem right here, and what's the cause?
Maps being too advantageous for cheap abuse play?
Or overall balance being just horrible and impossible to tweak in order to fix the problem at hands?
I'm pretty sure maps play a bigger role in this, and a bigger role than you think. It would also be much easier to fix.
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On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons
If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch?
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On December 30 2010 01:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
btw some ppl here are right, i should have made a roach warren or a hydralisk den, but honestly the build i played on metalopis was the first time i used it on close positions and i was totally banking on making a huge gamble in case he would make a robotics, and when he didnt i assumed i was dead. Even if you do make it, he can stay on high grounds with forcefields and wait for that one unit with 9 range to come out then forcefield everything and roaches and hydras melt anyways - i doubt i could have actually won the game but i could have probably made it a little more competitive. thats a mistake in thinking but thats just the result of getting your ass handed to you all the time by protoss (and terran)... ill work on it.
I think you need some more positivity Ret.
Chin up man, Im sure you will find a successful way to play ZvP.
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On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch?
Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit
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On December 30 2010 01:59 Blaec wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
btw some ppl here are right, i should have made a roach warren or a hydralisk den, but honestly the build i played on metalopis was the first time i used it on close positions and i was totally banking on making a huge gamble in case he would make a robotics, and when he didnt i assumed i was dead. Even if you do make it, he can stay on high grounds with forcefields and wait for that one unit with 9 range to come out then forcefield everything and roaches and hydras melt anyways - i doubt i could have actually won the game but i could have probably made it a little more competitive. thats a mistake in thinking but thats just the result of getting your ass handed to you all the time by protoss (and terran)... ill work on it. I think you need some more positivity Ret. Chin up man, Im sure you will find a successful way to play ZvP.
I agree but thats obviously much more easily said than done. (Being positive I mean.)
Ret hwaiting 
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On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit
They can actually react to what you're doing.
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On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing.
Maybe they are not familiar with this build :D
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On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit
A build that works only IF your opponent does a certain build is terrible. It's not an effective way of dealing with it. A good build is able to be adapted to deal with everything, not rely on a certain build. Much like how 14 hatch is best response to 2rax.
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Making maps bigger would cause some other problems, but its not the main point of this. I and many other people would agree, that its not true that ALL the maps are too small. Some maps favour other race, some does to another one, its a game. The same was at SC:BW but not that much. And most of the problems are about logical/mind game not only just to blaim the maps.
I'm pretty much done with this, since this would lead to nowhere.
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On December 30 2010 02:01 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 01:59 Blaec wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
btw some ppl here are right, i should have made a roach warren or a hydralisk den, but honestly the build i played on metalopis was the first time i used it on close positions and i was totally banking on making a huge gamble in case he would make a robotics, and when he didnt i assumed i was dead. Even if you do make it, he can stay on high grounds with forcefields and wait for that one unit with 9 range to come out then forcefield everything and roaches and hydras melt anyways - i doubt i could have actually won the game but i could have probably made it a little more competitive. thats a mistake in thinking but thats just the result of getting your ass handed to you all the time by protoss (and terran)... ill work on it. I think you need some more positivity Ret. Chin up man, Im sure you will find a successful way to play ZvP. I agree but thats obviously much more easily said than done. (Being positive I mean.) Ret hwaiting
True, it would be unusual if you came out of a 0-3 feeling positive.
Ret fighting!
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On December 30 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. Maybe they are not familiar with this build :D
It's not a feasible strategy against top players, thuogh. It could work against some low diamonds I guess.
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On December 30 2010 02:03 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit A build that works only IF your opponent does a certain build is terrible. It's not an effective way of dealing with it. A good build is able to be adapted to deal with everything, not rely on a certain build. Much like how 14 hatch is best response to 2rax.
You mean like toss often not going robo and losing to cloaked banshee? :D
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On December 30 2010 02:03 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. Maybe they are not familiar with this build :D It's not a feasible strategy against top players, thuogh. It could work against some low diamonds I guess.
Sorry if I do not take you word for it. Now if some top Zergs would tell us they gave this build a real shot (as in tried it seriously 10+ times) and found it useless I could believe it.
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On December 30 2010 01:55 Liquid`Ret wrote:
btw some ppl here are right, i should have made a roach warren or a hydralisk den, but honestly the build i played on metalopis was the first time i used it on close positions and i was totally banking on making a huge gamble in case he would make a robotics, and when he didnt i assumed i was dead. Even if you do make it, he can stay on high grounds with forcefields and wait for that one unit with 9 range to come out then forcefield everything and roaches and hydras melt anyways - i doubt i could have actually won the game but i could have probably made it a little more competitive. thats a mistake in thinking but thats just the result of getting your ass handed to you all the time by protoss (and terran)... ill work on it.
Nice to hear that. Would like to see you stream more, as well. Really enjoy them.
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On December 30 2010 02:03 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. Maybe they are not familiar with this build :D It's not a feasible strategy against top players, thuogh. It could work against some low diamonds I guess.
I saw Sen go for 11 pool and win with it quite nicely in an eco focused fashion.
Surely not against a player of MCs lvl but not low diamond either..
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11 overpool doesnt even get lings out in time to break a pylon block on your ramp, so i doubt 12 hatch pool is gonna be much better suited to it
and even if it is in time to defend gate first cannon/zeal rush, it kills your econ so bad that if they recognize it they can probably just not cannon rush and do a +1 warpgate rush
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On December 30 2010 02:09 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 02:03 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:02 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 02:01 Spidinko wrote:On December 30 2010 02:00 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:58 arew wrote:On December 30 2010 01:55 -Archangel- wrote:On December 30 2010 01:53 Liquid`Ret wrote:
so what? u try playing zvt vs a korean, im doing it everyday and i get raped all day long, mana is a european and he doesnt know how to abuse zerg Have you tried 12 overpool hatch, 11 pool to counter these cannon cheese? I gets you a hatch at natural and lings in time to stop cannons If you haven't scouted your opponent and do this, you might lose some eco compared of going 14-15 hatch, no? So you kinda go blindly for this. I dont think it's able to scout your opponent so fast on the maps like LT to go for 12 hatch? Well maybe in Korea 80% PvZ is cannon cheese so this is legit They can actually react to what you're doing. Maybe they are not familiar with this build :D It's not a feasible strategy against top players, thuogh. It could work against some low diamonds I guess. I saw Sen go for 11 pool and win with it quite nicely in an eco focused fashion. Surely not against a player of MCs lvl but not low diamond either..
That is another build. The 12 overhatch is designed to help defend cannon cheese by providing early hatch on the other side of the pylon contain. It also provides early two hatches and earlier lings to defend against other cannon rushes (like the one behind minerals).
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@7mk: He's not talking about 11 pool, though. 12 hatch, 11 pool as a blind counter against pylon wall-in seems unnecessary to me.
EDIT:
@ Archangel: Well there you have an answer from a pro. Convinced now?
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EPT
