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On December 05 2010 07:55 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:19 cuppatea wrote:
Sjow is the ultimate example of a player who, at least to my eyes, shouldn't be good but is.
He has like 80 apm, sloppy macro, doesn't scout and is mechanically weak in general yet he's somehow one of the best players outside of Korea, I honestly don't get it. He doesn't scout early because he knows there is nothing to be seen except for cheese really. Did you miss the scouting with the helion every game? Also 80 APM is fine if it's 80 EAPM. Most players have like 150 APM wich only 80/100 is usefull. With one mouse click sjow just accomplishes what some players do with 10. His macro isn't sloppy at all..
I really don't know all the details, but I have to agree with the APM part. I often see players spam click units to go to a location. Some players click for their forces to go to a spot 3-5 times so their APM is higher, but it didn't even do anything. Nevertheless people go by APM to measure skill. (I am not directly commenting on SjoW as I didn't see him play, but saying "OMFG HE HAS 80 APM HE MUST NOT BE A GOOD PLAYER" is incredibly ignorant, and I can't believe people are still saying it.)
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Sjow is an impressive player. He isn't very fast, but his decision making is brilliant in every MU. I wasn't so sure about his TvP, but he is really solid.
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please keep in mind that 80 APM is effectively 110 _real apm_ (the apm counter in sc2 is broken, it counts on the wrong speed.)
I just made the math its 110 which is almost two actions a second.. on these current maps that promotes lowbase play and low econ play, 110 APM will suffice most of the time.
besides, his clicks are worth more than most ppls.
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On December 05 2010 07:55 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:19 cuppatea wrote:
Sjow is the ultimate example of a player who, at least to my eyes, shouldn't be good but is.
He has like 80 apm, sloppy macro, doesn't scout and is mechanically weak in general yet he's somehow one of the best players outside of Korea, I honestly don't get it. He doesn't scout early because he knows there is nothing to be seen except for cheese really. Did you miss the scouting with the helion every game? Also 80 APM is fine if it's 80 EAPM. Most players have like 150 APM wich only 80/100 is usefull. With one mouse click sjow just accomplishes what some players do with 10. His macro isn't sloppy at all..
In game 1 he was up to about 1.7k minerals off 2 bases before the camera switched off his view and I couldn't see his resources anymore, he basically stopped producing anything as soon as the fighting began.
I watched one of his Nordic EPS games recently in which he got supply blocked 3 or 4 times in the early to mid game and again let his resources skyrocket once his units moved out.
Morrow actually said he decided to switch to Zerg after seeing Sjow floating 1k+ minerals off 1 base and deciding Terran macro was too forgiving.
For the level he's playing at his macro is definitely sloppy, I can't think of many players around his level I've seen rocking quadruple digit resource counts as frequently as Sjow.
Also, the "80 apm is fine" talk kinda bothers me because in BW 80 apm wasn't fine, nor was it in WC3 and nor is it in SC2, at least with Zerg. If 80 apm is fine for Terran in SC2 then I would suggest the game itself isn't fine because while a high level of mechanical skill and speed shouldn't be the only deciding factor in elite play, it should at least be one of them.
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Actions per game minutes, plus it actually filters some actions out so I'd imagine it's even higher than 110 "real" APM.
It's not broken though, it works as intended. It's just misleading a bit. =P
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APM isnt that big of an advantage , not in SC2.
Even the korean programmers say that young people with ridiculous APM have an advantage over them in BW but not in SC2. In SC2 , macro is easier compared to BW and the game often comes down to decision making and experience , thus the likes of Nestea and Boxer doing so good in GSL.
Plus , will there be VODS? if so where are they?
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On December 05 2010 08:11 Talin wrote:
Actions per game minutes, plus it actually filters some actions out so I'd imagine it's even higher than 110 "real" APM.
It's not broken though, it works as intended. It's just misleading a bit. =P
80sc2 apm = 110 real apm, I used a converter to determine it
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I don't know where you got the number "80" from. Last replays I checked out from sjow he had about 100-110.
Sjow really is one of the smartest sc2 player at this time. He has really good decision makin. A real RTS gamer!
Essjaow HWAITIINGG!!!
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On December 05 2010 08:11 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:55 Endorsed wrote:On December 05 2010 07:19 cuppatea wrote:
Sjow is the ultimate example of a player who, at least to my eyes, shouldn't be good but is.
He has like 80 apm, sloppy macro, doesn't scout and is mechanically weak in general yet he's somehow one of the best players outside of Korea, I honestly don't get it. He doesn't scout early because he knows there is nothing to be seen except for cheese really. Did you miss the scouting with the helion every game? Also 80 APM is fine if it's 80 EAPM. Most players have like 150 APM wich only 80/100 is usefull. With one mouse click sjow just accomplishes what some players do with 10. His macro isn't sloppy at all.. In game 1 he was up to about 1.7k minerals off 2 bases before the camera switched off his view and I couldn't see his resources anymore, he basically stopped producing anything as soon as the fighting began.
He lost most of his production buildings and many supply depots (so he was supply blocked) and he had 2 bases with mules
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gooooooo americaa!!!
this is going to be ean exciting match up
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On December 05 2010 07:08 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:07 Diderick wrote:On December 05 2010 07:05 SmoKim wrote:
Sjows macro is failing hard His macro didnt fail, he got supplyblocked very very hard thats macro, isnt it? tho it was understandable ;D;D;
You didnt watch the game?
He was supplyblocked because tt1 killed 5 sups
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Italy523 Posts
On December 05 2010 08:57 Leviance wrote:
Where are the VODs???
VODs will be uploaded very soon!
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On December 05 2010 07:19 cuppatea wrote:
Sjow is the ultimate example of a player who, at least to my eyes, shouldn't be good but is.
He has like 80 apm, sloppy macro, doesn't scout and is mechanically weak in general yet he's somehow one of the best players outside of Korea, I honestly don't get it.
This. On blistering sands, the highest count I can remember was 2,3k minerals and 700 gas off 2 base with 5 baracks simultaneously in construction. He was supply-blocked earlier, but this was like 2-3 minutes before that when the attack of TT1 from the backdoor came.
This is frickin ridiculous, you don't see random ~2k diamond players with such a bad macro.
And STILL his positioning, his choice of which units to build when and what to do with them at every point in time is so incredibly effective. He makes it really seem like he doesn't need more units because he gets the most out of every unit he "does" build.
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Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
tosS.ita in the OP can you put a spoiler that have all the results for each day something like this
+ Show Spoiler [results] +
12-4-10
xxx 2:1 yyy
12-5-10
xxx 0:2 yyy
It would really help people that just want to know the results quickly without going through thread but regardless nice tournament!
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Italy523 Posts
On December 05 2010 09:11 Ares[EffOrt] wrote:tosS.ita in the OP can you put a spoiler that have all the results for each day something like this + Show Spoiler [results] +
12-4-10
xxx 2:1 yyy
12-5-10
xxx 0:2 yyy
It would really help people that just want to know the results quickly without going through thread but regardless nice tournament!
sure I will update soon!
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Bratok has the best picture. Kind of surprised that Sjow won that convincingly.
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On December 05 2010 09:09 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 07:19 cuppatea wrote:
Sjow is the ultimate example of a player who, at least to my eyes, shouldn't be good but is.
He has like 80 apm, sloppy macro, doesn't scout and is mechanically weak in general yet he's somehow one of the best players outside of Korea, I honestly don't get it. This. On blistering sands, the highest count I can remember was 2,3k minerals and 700 gas off 2 base with 5 baracks simultaneously in construction. He was supply-blocked earlier, but this was like 2-3 minutes before that when the attack of TT1 from the backdoor came. This is frickin ridiculous, you don't see random ~2k diamond players with such a bad macro. And STILL his positioning, his choice of which units to build when and what to do with them at every point in time is so incredibly effective. He makes it really seem like he doesn't need more units because he gets the most out of every unit he "does" build.
I don't want to take away anything from him, or Terran, but the reason he can compete is in my eyes Terran.
Basically you don't have to be afraid of ANYTHING the other races throw at you.
You're practically safe from everything.
(Of course this will probably change when new builds / maps / add-ons appear)
Nonethless, in the current game state, his gamestyle seems to be absolutely effective.
But i would predict if he would participate in GSL he would fail miserably, cause of his devastating bad mechanics.
I guess when the game gets more macro oriented, and drives away from the "1ball vs 1ball", he'll fall apart and we won't see him anymore.
Maybe i'm wrong though.
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TTone had the game on Blistering in his pocket. Then he decided to walk up Sjows backdoor with 7 sieged tanks BEHIND a raxfactstarport. All clumped up and shit.
"Here you go Essjaow, I'll just hand you the game ;>"
Even thou he didn't macro good. TTone played worse.
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vods plz
i need them 
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EPT
