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On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors.
Marine spread > infestor
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On November 04 2010 20:59 Koshi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:43 Mellotron wrote:
Hate to say it but both players made it into a boring, ugly series in my opinion. Im afraid i just really dont care if somebody can get a bunch of marines in a hurry. If Fake Boxer can show something other that his 1 trick then ill be impressed. Once his gimmick is figured out no one is going to fall for that anymore and hell be just another player. I hope for his sake he works some other elements into his style, because some of his decision making is dog shit. Once players have the time to take apart his gimmick all that hell have left is nothing. So hopefully he can improve further and expand his play and not be just some guy we barely remember in 5 years. He seems like a decent guy so i wish him luck. Did you watched Nada vs Boxer? Nada tried cutesy builds while Boxer did the EXACT same thing 4 times. Boxer won 3vs1.
You don't change a build if you were winning. Boxer failed the 1st game, but it was cross-map on a large map.
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On November 04 2010 21:00 Wekapedia wrote:
The problem is really the size of the maps. It's like putting a T and a Z spawn 50yds from each other in BW and the zerg going 4pool every game.
They should use the iCCup maps, cuz they're fun as hell, and much more engaging in multiple styles of strategies, than the blizz maps, although blizz maps are fun in their own way.
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On November 04 2010 20:43 Mellotron wrote:
Hate to say it but both players made it into a boring, ugly series in my opinion. Im afraid i just really dont care if somebody can get a bunch of marines in a hurry. If Fake Boxer can show something other that his 1 trick then ill be impressed. Once his gimmick is figured out no one is going to fall for that anymore and hell be just another player. I hope for his sake he works some other elements into his style, because some of his decision making is dog shit. Once players have the time to take apart his gimmick all that hell have left is nothing. So hopefully he can improve further and expand his play and not be just some guy we barely remember in 5 years. He seems like a decent guy so i wish him luck.
You show either your bias, or your elementary understanding of top level play by identifying his unit choice alone and ignoring what makes him truly effective. He has micro as good as anyone playing SC2, maybe only the real Boxer could match him. He also has very good game sense and a knack for timing pushes which can't simply be learnt. He has all the key attributes of an elite level player: brilliant micro, great game sense, solid macro play (particularly under pressure), handles big game pressure well.
His one exploitable area is probably that he is overly aggressive at times when he could potentially gain more from solidifying his position.
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On November 04 2010 20:53 eggs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors. infestors come in a little late, and don't have that much energy. each infestor also costs as much gas as 6 banelings. by the time they come out, Foxer has so many reactor'd barracks with a steady stream of marines that 1 or 2 fungals won't really be that different from having 6 more banelings.
Foxer relies so heavily on marine micro to nullify the blings that 1 fungal growth could do way more good than just more banelings. Keep in mind that Idra's opinion is based on hitting the guy on the ladder 'all the time', and according to his experience Foxer 'does not adapt'.
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On November 04 2010 20:55 Deadlyfish wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 04 2010 20:52 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:48 taintmachine wrote:
i think the venom towards foxer is unfortunate because it tells me that people have to be absolutely retarded to not appreciate his builds and micro. for instance, foxer vs. kyrix is one of the best series, if not the best, we've had throughout both GSLs from a spectator PoV, and it was because of this darkhorse "abusing" tier 1 aggression like a maniac. This. It's sad how people don't understand starcraft...I'm sad for people who can't appreciate the games foxer gives to us  I do think people appreciate them, i know i do. But that doesnt mean that i wouldnt like to see something besides mass marine. A 45 min game with Foxer would be much better than a game that ends in 7mins with only marines.
People need to see the difference between entertaining play and skilled play. Often they collide, but definitely not always. Just look at some of the day9 funday monday games. They can be hilarious, but hardly high level. And 45min long macro games are only interesting if theres constant agression, counter-agression, comebacks, drops, nice micro plays, etc.
The reason Foxer vs Kyrix was so awesome to watch was because it was two incredibly agressive players and when their two styles clashed together it became amazingly entertaining games, which still didnt end in 8min. Was is skilled? Of course it was, but Im sure some players would like to comment some on the general playstyles and would argue other playstyles are better. Im not gonna judge if these agressive playstyles are the best or not, but they're definitley more entertaining than two low-agression players, even if they'd be played by equally skilled players.
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Love how people are hating on Foxer for always going with a strategy that works for him and at the same time most of the people are ignoring the fact that ITR did the exact same strategy as well except his kept failing game after game.
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On November 04 2010 20:22 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:21 x-Catalyst wrote:On November 04 2010 20:18 Thurokiir wrote:
Yea its Fauxer btw, Foxer is for people that don't know the english language. Even though the pun makes sense and is sort of cool, people seem to get angry by that fact that faux is pronounced "foe"... So not pronounced "foe". Uh, more like "foe" but without the 'w' sound at the end. Få, for Swedes...
In English it's pronounced "foe". "Faux" is a loanword from French, and English pronunciation tends to diphthong-ify long vowel sounds. See words like "mauve" or "decor".
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On November 04 2010 21:03 nihoh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors. Marine spread > infestor
You can't move around a large marine force without balling up, and infestors have enough range to fungal before you can spread out. It's instant, unlike banelings.
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On November 04 2010 21:05 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:22 vyyye wrote:On November 04 2010 20:21 x-Catalyst wrote:On November 04 2010 20:18 Thurokiir wrote:
Yea its Fauxer btw, Foxer is for people that don't know the english language. Even though the pun makes sense and is sort of cool, people seem to get angry by that fact that faux is pronounced "foe"... So not pronounced "foe". Uh, more like "foe" but without the 'w' sound at the end. Få, for Swedes... In English it's pronounced "foe". "Faux" is a loanword from French, and English pronunciation tends to diphthong-ify long vowel sounds. See words like "mauve" or "decor".
I thought they simply used the french word, didn't even know it was a French loan word in English. My bad, my bad.
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He only mass rined/tank coz itr couldnt hold the pushes =X
His fault for overcommiting banshees
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Anyone diminishing Foxers achievements by calling him a one trick pony or gimmicky is clearly mental in the face. I cordially invite them to stfu. Foxer is clearly a fucking baller.
That is all.
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On November 04 2010 20:55 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:52 MrCon wrote:On November 04 2010 20:48 taintmachine wrote:
i think the venom towards foxer is unfortunate because it tells me that people have to be absolutely retarded to not appreciate his builds and micro. for instance, foxer vs. kyrix is one of the best series, if not the best, we've had throughout both GSLs from a spectator PoV, and it was because of this darkhorse "abusing" tier 1 aggression like a maniac. This. It's sad how people don't understand starcraft...I'm sad for people who can't appreciate the games foxer gives to us I do think people appreciate them, i know i do. But that doesnt mean that i wouldnt like to see something besides mass marine. A 45 min game with Foxer would be much better than a game that ends in 7mins with only marines.
Are we watching the same games? Vs kyrix he used rines against BANELINGS. Today his builds were unorthodox (which is pretty damn interesting) By 45 min games are you're referring to GSL 1 where ITR sat back and let FD double expand? Long game != interesting
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On November 04 2010 21:06 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 21:03 nihoh wrote:On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors. Marine spread > infestor You can't move around a large marine force without balling up, and infestors have enough range to fungal before you can spread out. It's instant, unlike banelings.
The problem is getting out enough infestors early enough to save up energy for fungal. A zerg player might be able to get off a few fungals against Foxers marine force, but he don't take out a large chunk of his attacking army, the infestors will fall pretty fast.
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On November 04 2010 21:04 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 20:53 eggs wrote:On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors. infestors come in a little late, and don't have that much energy. each infestor also costs as much gas as 6 banelings. by the time they come out, Foxer has so many reactor'd barracks with a steady stream of marines that 1 or 2 fungals won't really be that different from having 6 more banelings. Foxer relies so heavily on marine micro to nullify the blings that 1 fungal growth could do way more good than just more banelings. Keep in mind that Idra's opinion is based on hitting the guy on the ladder 'all the time', and according to his experience Foxer 'does not adapt'.
That's probably because Foxer has been practicing his marine micro on ladder... Why would he adapt if he's training?
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On November 04 2010 21:02 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 21:00 mierin wrote:
People claiming he only marines clearly didn't watch g5. Yeah, he went marines, siege marines, and flying marines.
You forgot the angelic marines that fly around, heal the marines, pick up the siege marines and marines and carry them to safety, and shoot healing lasers instead of bullets.
Also keep in mind that in every game he also builds lots of miner marines that give him money to make marines and additional marine warrens.
And don't forget about the fat marines in game 4. He had a couple fat marines when he pushed his marine/fat marine/miner marine army into hopetorture's marine+non-sieged tank army.
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On November 04 2010 21:09 1337skillzave wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 21:02 Fa1nT wrote:On November 04 2010 21:00 mierin wrote:
People claiming he only marines clearly didn't watch g5. Yeah, he went marines, siege marines, and flying marines. You forgot the angelic marines that fly around, heal the marines, pick up the siege marines and marines and carry them to safety, and shoot healing lasers instead of bullets. Also keep in mind that in every game he also builds lots of miner marines that give him money to make marines and additional marine warrens. And don't forget about the fat marines in game 4. He had a couple fat marines when he pushed his marine/fat marine/miner marine army into hopetorture's marine+non-sieged tank army.
There were also some flying marines that can land and shoot like marines, but when they are flying they shoot really long range rockets.
He also has marines that mine gold.
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On November 04 2010 20:22 Thurokiir wrote:I know, though the english dictionary has Faux in it. Where's your god now?
http://mw1.meriam-webster.com/dictionary/faux
This is a well respected English dictionary, Meriam-Webster. Click the "pronunciation" button to read how the word is pronounced in English. The button is shaped as a stereo speaker with sound waves emanating from it. It should be next to the word.
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Anyway, this match was a very big disappointment for me.
BoxeR played intelligently. He went with a build and tried to make it work. It worked. He had no reason to change up his strategy, especially since HopeTorture never managed to shake his calm. He understood that his timing attacks were fully capable of success if repeated, so he repeated them. It was HopeTorture's call to adapt.
This is where I am saddened. I have watched HopeTorture play in BW, when he went by IntoTheRainbow, and never remember him being so stubborn. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that he was sick, but this stubborn play is becoming somewhat of a trend with him. I don't know if I can honestly believe his sub-par performance today was from sickness.
Even a small change like proxying his Starport produced much better results for HopeTorture, but he reverted back to his standard Banshee play after his single win. I must say that I am slightly concerned with BoxeR as well, though. Not highly, but slightly. If his build fails in the finals and he continues to do it over and over I will be very disappointed. As it stands, he's showcased that he is capable of performing the transition out of marines and two bases on good timing, but we were denied any information as to whether he could maintain his flow after the transition.
I honestly have no idea what'll happen tomorrow between SlayerS_`BoxeR` and NesTea. Either way, Season 2 of the GSL has been much better than Season 1. It's still got a way to go before being comparable to the OSL/MSL/PL, but it's definitely improving.
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On November 04 2010 21:09 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 21:06 Fa1nT wrote:On November 04 2010 21:03 nihoh wrote:On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors. Marine spread > infestor You can't move around a large marine force without balling up, and infestors have enough range to fungal before you can spread out. It's instant, unlike banelings. The problem is getting out enough infestors early enough to save up energy for fungal. A zerg player might be able to get off a few fungals against Foxers marine force, but he don't take out a large chunk of his attacking army, the infestors will fall pretty fast.
Which can be stopped. Burrowed banelings all over, for example, would force boxer to wait for scans.
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On November 04 2010 21:06 Fa1nT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 04 2010 21:03 nihoh wrote:On November 04 2010 20:50 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:45 JinDesu wrote:I think it's more that you start as at 1 (for a whole year) than from 0 to that 1. On November 04 2010 20:43 Kishkumen wrote:On November 04 2010 20:36 Moragon wrote:we've already seen what he does about the counter to marines. he counters it with better controlled marines This. To everyone who says to hard counter his marines the zergs have used baneling infestor on him, I cant think of a much harder counter, but he still wins making more marines and splitting them everywhere. As revolutionary as his play has been in this tournament people are going to copy it and something will have to be done, you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. According to IdrA, his strategy is countered pretty heavily by infestors. IdrA seemed pretty confident that a good Zerg with infestor/baneling could take Foxer's strategy down pretty easily. you cant have a strategy game boil down to just make a lot of your tier 1 unit. Day9 would beg to differ, since he's done several dailies on how good tier 1 macro builds are. People get too obsessed with this idea of tiers. Personally, marines are way more fun to watch than thors. And emerging strategies<>imba. I dunno, Foxer said he's pretty confident against Infestor play, most likely because zerg would just get overwhelmed in trying to get to infestors. I'm not a top level Zerg so I'm just repeating what I heard. IdrA sounded very confident infestors would counter it. I believe he said Kyrix was "retarded" for not going infestors. Marine spread > infestor You can't move around a large marine force without balling up, and infestors have enough range to fungal before you can spread out. It's instant, unlike banelings.
Well this isnt quite true, the AI will ball them up thats a fact, but he could use some thing similar to magic box mutas on open ground to make them not group up as fast. Or he could just have enough control to nullify it completely.
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EPT
