EPT[GSL] Open S1 - Ro32 Day 1 - Page 92
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PartyBiscuit
Canada4525 Posts
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piegasm
United States266 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:23 Darksoldierr wrote: Missing hidden expo is a big mistake that cost you games, no matter what race you play. Indeed. He lost the 2nd game because he assumed he knew exactly what his opponent was doing and turned out to be wrong. In the 3rd game that expansion was under his nose for half the game. He killed a pylon on the ledge and then failed to check whether there was anything else wonky up there. I think Tastosis even remarked that they were surprised he didn't send a unit to have a look. Then he took that base's natural and still didn't scout up the ramp even though he knew Protoss had been up there to place the pylon. A bunch of gateway units harassed IdrA's expo from there as well with IdrA none the wiser. That's pretty inexcusable regardless of what race you play. | ||
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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Ascorius
Norway275 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:31 MrCon wrote: yeah that's sick, most games are winned or losed because of a reason. But I sorta agree with you, the day we'll not be able to find a reason, then we'll be able to blame balance. (as in game 2 of maka) As long as we're able to see a crucial mistake that cost you the game, talking about balance is not relevant. I disagree. When one race has to rely on perfect control and macro to compete, and when doing one mistake looses that game you can still talk about imbalance. Im not saying critical mistakes shouldnt be punished. I am just saying that the threshold for critical mistakes is so much lower for certain races. Let me put it this way. Lets say terran is white in chess and zerg is black. But black only needs to be checked to loose... so you have to play at a much higher level and be alot more careful than your opponent which needs to be check mated. This way it becomes easier and nearly impossible not to make a mistake and when the damage is done its too late to repair it. While white can make some mistakes and correct them while playing. Thats at least how fragile the zerg race looks to me at the moment. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
baw thats why teams exist | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
I think some infestors with fungal would have helped, for a long time Lotze was just feinting with his army at Idra's gold expo, fungal would have definitely shut that down. Idra macroed well but his strategy simply wasn't very good and his execution wasn't very good either. And then Lotze switched up to Collosus plus void rays and that'd be pretty hard to stop. The better player won this match. | ||
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piegasm
United States266 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:46 PanzerDragoon wrote: Idra trash talks both of them constantly, so he's lost all reason to expect any respect from them. Happy exit from the tourney Idra, nice scouting. Fucking love watching him lose However IdrA behaves toward them, you're not the bigger person when you give the same right back. "He started it" is a child's excuse. | ||
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
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Nu11
Canada167 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:41 teamsolid wrote: Watching the game right now, if I'm wrong about the expo going down, I'll gladly aknowledge it.The obs didn't show the expo going down, but if you looked at minimap, Z killed it before taking out the 4 raxes. Don't talk when you have like gold-level map awareness while watching the game. Wait, so Terran going down to close to ZERO units is only losing a minor battle? Losing 6 production buildings and a gold expo is a tiny loss right? Cognitive dissonance much? Let's see... mistakes by the Terran: -Building 4 raxes out in the middle of nowhere. -Taking an expo so far out in the map and not turning it into a planetary -Attacking with purely marines/medivacs when he knows Z has banelings, which led to him losing the gold -Having 2 thors by themselves with no marine or turret support so they get sniped by mutas -Throwing away medivacs full of marines by dropping Z main without doing much damage (each one is 500/100) All of these would be critical mistakes if they came from the Z side. But oh he's a T, so they're only minor mistakes. The only mistake that Zerg really made was not making banelings for the marines. However, he must've thought that after taking down FOUR raxes, Maka would be switching over to mostly mech. Now if Maka went pure mech and he went banelings instead of roach, Z would be toast. So it was a tricky decision for Z to make and he made the wrong one and lost the game. Engaging the army was a mistake, but even if he did not engage it, Terran was already closing in on the Z's gold base. After sniping all of the drones at Z's natural, if he then lost the gold expo, Z would basically be dead due to crippled economy (1 base of drones vs 2 saturated T). No comment. I do agree that the IdrA games didn't exactly show imbalance, but not many people think ZvP is that imba anyways.. The only thing it shows is that IdrA fell for mindgames and failed to scout a key hidden expo. We're 10 minutes into the game and maka has 1600 income with 38 harvesters to 800 with 31 harvester for jookToJung ; I guess it has a LITTLE something to do in mistakes being more forgiving for him, but I could be wrong. Will answer (or just agree) with the rest of your post later after rewatching the game. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 15 2010 23:51 Ascorius wrote: Well, I kinda agree with you, but I'm not sure if the disavantage is that big. However, if it exist, I agree it need to be fixed somehow.I disagree. When one race has to rely on perfect control and macro to compete, and when doing one mistake looses that game you can still talk about imbalance. Im not saying critical mistakes shouldnt be punished. I am just saying that the threshold for critical mistakes is so much lower for certain races. Let me put it this way. Lets say terran is white in chess and zerg is black. But black only needs to be checked to loose... so you have to play at a much higher level and be alot more careful than your opponent which needs to be check mated. This way it becomes easier and nearly impossible not to make a mistake and when the damage is done its too late to repair it. While white can make some mistakes and correct them while playing. Thats at least how fragile the zerg race looks to me at the moment. About idra, I think he's just not AS good as everyone think. He's a beast, he's VERY good, but he's still far, far away cool, check or tester. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
With sc2 still being in its early stages and probably the best chance foreigners are going to get a chance to make an impact, is it fair to say that as the game gets more and more figured out that once again kor will completely dominate the competitive scene with only a very very small handful of foreigners actually being able to put up a fight. | ||
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The_DjiN
Germany86 Posts
On September 15 2010 22:57 Ascorius wrote: Not really, he already had spiretech and corruptors out. Broodlords was a much better choice in that situation. The ultras would have taken forever to get also.... stop with the "if he had that unit at that point he would have dont much better" logic. Look at the big picture. Ultras would have taken too much time, and would have cost him more. @Piegasm: I wouldnt call IdrA a one trick pony. He plays solid macro yes. But he will always attack when he has an opening. The game versus Tarson is a good example, the first game in the series today is also a good example. And he has the reputation of never cheesing or going all in. But thats not being a one trick pony. If that was the case you could call most BW pro's for one trick ponies. well getting ultras out on the field takes exactly 1 second longer. thats kinda forever yes T_T | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
By the way, it's an overstatement to claim Idra's weakness is scouting hidden proxies etc, because at this point of time opponents simply do these tricks against him more often than against others (which is kind of flattering). Sometimes he finds them, sometimes he doesn't - like any other player. That's in general, of course his particular overlord map distribution and usage can be criticized further, but I'm sure he'll be able to identify this even better. Hope to see an interview with him soon. Idra fighting! | ||
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Dionyseus
United States2068 Posts
On September 15 2010 18:55 shannn wrote: Hmmm scouting problems for Idra even though he got pressured whole time so he couldn't really scout. But man what a game series. That end mix of the Protoss is quite interesting. Lots of stalkers Collossi and VR. Scouting is so easy, especially when you're zerg. 1 zergling costs 25 minerals and it can scout the entire map in a few minutes, 2 zerglings can do that twice as fast, etc. Speed overlords can do it easy too, and he did have speed overlords already. | ||
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DoXa
Switzerland1448 Posts
On September 16 2010 00:03 Nu11 wrote: I'm really surprised you all still accept SC2 as a competitive game. The integrity of this game is basically zero. It's not balanced at all and it's totally unfair if you don't play terran. was SC1 (without BW) balanced when it came out? | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
He doesn't kill the expo at first but yes you are right, he kills it offscreen a bit later. However this put the game at 1 expo each. The attack on the expo is horrible, he let the tank then the bunker live for an very long time, losing a lot of lings to 2 bunked marines. Then he kill 4 (out of what, 9, at least ?) rax, 2 thors and has to retreat to 2 more thors and a marine ball. That damage is PERHAPS enough to make up for the long time he had half the income, let's say it's enough. Then he lose a muta killing a rafinery and 2 marines, then attack with 8 lings, 10 blings and lose them all killing like 4 marines. Then maka drops his natural, killing at least 10 drones and losing his vac and 8 marines. At that point their supply count are more or less equal but maka@1300 income vs 800. Maka also has 2/2 upgrades against 0/0. And then....JTJ lose 20 mutas and some roaches not even killing 10 marines by magic boxing marines (lol) then retreating his like 15 mutas left, 11 of them dying after that, 4 left from 24+ . It's not like he lost that to some magic imba, he moved his mutas then he unburrow his roaches. If he does the later then the former he wins, too bad. Hell, if he's NOT retreating, perhaps he win also (at least he kills a lot of stuff) Really, JTJ was behind all game but managed to come back, then he makes a terrible, terrible mistake and lose. I fail to see any imbalance here, but I could be wrong again. edit : some imprecisions here after rerewatching the replay. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On September 16 2010 00:32 DoXa wrote: was SC1 (without BW) balanced when it came out? No, but he is right. There's this huge elephant in the room that ruins the fun. I was playing the BroodWar1.5 custom map today.... it's so much better than actual SC2 it's painful. Most of us could see the mistakes that Blizz were making designing this game, it was ok for a while but they're beginning to destroy the competitive integrity of the game. Patches can only cover up the design mistakes for a while. Needless to say the expansions can't come soon enough. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Ranshin
7 Posts
I hope that he at least makes it into the sweet 16. TLO Fighting!!! | ||
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So 1mn after this expansion was "destroyed", it was up and running again. That was a critical mistake. 
