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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote: well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote: suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. | ||
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reza
Canada213 Posts
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
I mean, from Brood War you have several stretches where Terran dominate over Zerg, but then somebody does something or the metagame shifts and it all goes back to normal. It seems cyclical. | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:01 reza wrote: scout with an early drone ( 8 or 9) and just leave it at bottom of their base and pop up 2-3 mins later and see whats really good Awesome. That worked, but then I got promoted to Silver and they kill my drone everytime. Those Silver players are crafty! What do I do now? | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote: anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Alright, you really have no idea what you're writing anymore...this is just silly. Show me the Zerg strat (other than one-base Muta or an all-in Bling Bust) that isn't reactinoary against Terran or just move along. | ||
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hyouro
Denmark45 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:02 Graven wrote: Awesome. That worked, but then I got promoted to Silver and they kill my drone everytime. Those Silver players are crafty! What do I do now? That was a bit harsh ;D I still lolled though. I think it works in 1 out of 100 games in diamond league. But yeah give us overlord speed at tier 1...Then I would be the worlds happiest camper ever. Period. | ||
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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reza
Canada213 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:02 Graven wrote: Awesome. That worked, but then I got promoted to Silver and they kill my drone everytime. Those Silver players are crafty! What do I do now? huh? if you just got promoted to silver I don't think you should be leaving suggestions or comments on the overall balance of the game. work you're way up to my level so your comments/suggestions can be justified. good day | ||
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Hollwoodxix
United States25 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote: anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. | ||
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Graven
United States314 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:13 reza wrote: huh? if you just got promoted to silver I don't think you should be leaving suggestions or comments on the overall balance of the game. work you're way up to my level so your comments/suggestions can be justified. good day LOL. I'm a Diamond player. My earlier response was sarcasm, directly attacking the intelligence behind your suggestion. However, it's clear by your response that you're not nearly as dumb as I initially thoguht, so I apologize. | ||
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BentoBox
Canada303 Posts
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Puremiss
United States232 Posts
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Slow Motion
United States6960 Posts
Also, I think Chapter 4 of Sun Tzu's Art of War says you must fight your opponent where he is strongest, or else you're a noob. I propose that in order to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, instead of playing games to see who wins we have a community vote on who is the strongest. That guy automatically wins. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote: anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks my frightening guess is that races have different skillcap and while terrans are easier to play at sub optimal levels people like Sen and Cool will always be dominating when it comes to winning big. | ||
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kajeus
United States679 Posts
On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote: It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. | ||
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Sfydjklm
United States9218 Posts
On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote: Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote: this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote: Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote: Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote: I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more. | ||
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