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On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg.
I'm not telling you to sacrifice an overlord early in the game -- that's never good, so I agreed that early scouting is hard.
But later in the game, it's realllly not a big deal at all. 100 minerals is nothing. Protoss players lose observers all the time; terrans either suicide marines or use scan. Not a big deal.
So, yes, it's hard for zerg to scout early in the game. I personally don't think this needs to be fixed -- I do ok -- but it is hard.
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Also, is the round 3 between silver and qxc going to be broadcast/ in VOD soon. I've heard already it was very interesting so I'd like to see it.
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On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote:On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote:
anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:31 Fayth wrote:
huh yeah right against anyone that's not retarded you're never getting in with ur scv, lings are too fast for that Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote:On August 03 2010 01:45 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:38 Fayth wrote:
you might as well maphack Oh, like scan? lol. Sending in two painfully slow overlords to get base coverage is far more costly than a scan (when you count in the positioning time and larvae cost). And even then you're not ensured anything. You should really consider taking a step back from the argument...it's not a conspiracy that these same threads are poping up on every SC2 forum on the internet. There's actually some fire beneath the smoke. well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more.
Everyone is talking about early game attacks before lair tech can kick in.
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On August 03 2010 06:59 memcpy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote:On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote:
anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:31 Fayth wrote:
huh yeah right against anyone that's not retarded you're never getting in with ur scv, lings are too fast for that Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote:On August 03 2010 01:45 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:38 Fayth wrote:
you might as well maphack Oh, like scan? lol. Sending in two painfully slow overlords to get base coverage is far more costly than a scan (when you count in the positioning time and larvae cost). And even then you're not ensured anything. You should really consider taking a step back from the argument...it's not a conspiracy that these same threads are poping up on every SC2 forum on the internet. There's actually some fire beneath the smoke. well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more. Everyone is talking about early game attacks before lair tech can kick in.
Didn't I respond to that? Hehe maybe not. Roaches work swell. Beats fast reaper, helion/rine push and all you have to scout is if they're going marduerer. Than just make lings.
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On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote:On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote:
anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:31 Fayth wrote:
huh yeah right against anyone that's not retarded you're never getting in with ur scv, lings are too fast for that Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote:On August 03 2010 01:45 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:38 Fayth wrote:
you might as well maphack Oh, like scan? lol. Sending in two painfully slow overlords to get base coverage is far more costly than a scan (when you count in the positioning time and larvae cost). And even then you're not ensured anything. You should really consider taking a step back from the argument...it's not a conspiracy that these same threads are poping up on every SC2 forum on the internet. There's actually some fire beneath the smoke. well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more.
Your solutions boils down to "delay for hive". That isn't balance. Make zerg mid game stronger against T and weaken the tier 3 if necessary. This will bring a much more fun matchup than what it currently is.
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On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky.
:O
doesnt work sorry.
Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool)
Dont wall with supplies lulz.
Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same.
You cant read. Noone is talkign about post lair.
Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race.
That sentence doesnt mean anything.
They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers.
Roaches counter neither reapers nor helions. Who in their right mind would try to attack roaches with helions?
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Stream is live guys  Finals coming up in 25 minutes
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On August 03 2010 06:33 kajeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. I'm not telling you to sacrifice an overlord early in the game -- that's never good, so I agreed that early scouting is hard. But later in the game, it's realllly not a big deal at all. 100 minerals is nothing. Protoss players lose observers all the time; terrans either suicide marines or use scan. Not a big deal. So, yes, it's hard for zerg to scout early in the game. I personally don't think this needs to be fixed -- I do ok -- but it is hard.
but thats what idra said scouting tech choices.
The problem is that terran has too many of them while zerg has none.
Ugh, its a complicated problem.
Thats why i said that its not an issue of balance but an issue of skill roof.
If zerg can play early game flawlessly he will roll terran when the game gets into late stages.
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idra vs silver first game length : 13:37
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LOL. Epic finisher game 1. "Idra: fucking ridiculious isn't it?" Even though it already happened it was great to see it.
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Not thrilled about the quality of this stream. Presentation wise.
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On August 03 2010 07:35 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. :O doesnt work sorry. Dont wall with supplies lulz. Show nested quote +
Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same.
You cant read. Noone is talkign about post lair. That sentence doesnt mean anything. Show nested quote +
They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers.
Roaches counter neither reapers nor helions. Who in their right mind would try to attack roaches with helions?
0.Doesn't work? I beg to differ.
1.They don't wall with supplies? Then still early pool and you can tell what they're going to do (therefore less scout work)
2.Just saying that post lair scout is extremely effective, and before then you can scout just fine via poking.
3. Roaches don't counter reapers or helions? Going to let you think about that.\
But omg Idra's rage is so hilarious :/
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Countdown till Silver gets exposed...
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On August 03 2010 07:12 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote:On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote:
anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:31 Fayth wrote:
huh yeah right against anyone that's not retarded you're never getting in with ur scv, lings are too fast for that Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote:On August 03 2010 01:45 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:38 Fayth wrote:
you might as well maphack Oh, like scan? lol. Sending in two painfully slow overlords to get base coverage is far more costly than a scan (when you count in the positioning time and larvae cost). And even then you're not ensured anything. You should really consider taking a step back from the argument...it's not a conspiracy that these same threads are poping up on every SC2 forum on the internet. There's actually some fire beneath the smoke. well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more. Your solutions boils down to "delay for hive". That isn't balance. Make zerg mid game stronger against T and weaken the tier 3 if necessary. This will bring a much more fun matchup than what it currently is.
I'm saying that winning the game will require hive unless you go for drops or nydus, both viable. If you're going to go headfirst into a tank line backed with thors, you're going to need stronger units. Zerg is able to get these units out in time. Your opinion is valid of course, I'll be thinking about that.
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"Apologize for playing that race"
Almost good enough to sig
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On August 03 2010 07:57 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:12 nam nam wrote:On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote:On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote:
anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:31 Fayth wrote:
huh yeah right against anyone that's not retarded you're never getting in with ur scv, lings are too fast for that Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote:On August 03 2010 01:45 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:38 Fayth wrote:
you might as well maphack Oh, like scan? lol. Sending in two painfully slow overlords to get base coverage is far more costly than a scan (when you count in the positioning time and larvae cost). And even then you're not ensured anything. You should really consider taking a step back from the argument...it's not a conspiracy that these same threads are poping up on every SC2 forum on the internet. There's actually some fire beneath the smoke. well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more. Your solutions boils down to "delay for hive". That isn't balance. Make zerg mid game stronger against T and weaken the tier 3 if necessary. This will bring a much more fun matchup than what it currently is. I'm saying that winning the game will require hive unless you go for drops or nydus, both viable. If you're going to go headfirst into a tank line backed with thors, you're going to need stronger units. Zerg is able to get these units out in time. Your opinion is valid of course, I'll be thinking about that.
I would argue the usefulness of nydas when it comes to countering mech or terran in general except on big maps to defend expansions. I've experimented with nydas quite a lot during the beta and failed to find a consistent offensive strategy with them. Drops can certainly be viable though but I'm not sure it is enough. We'll just have to wait and see how the game evolves, I'm always open to being wrong. (It happens quite a lot) 
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2.Just saying that post lair scout is extremely effective, and before then you can scout just fine via poking.
Poking is not sufficient for scouting in the early game if the Terran is intelligent enough to not leave all his tech buildings and units near the front/edge of his base. It can be very hard for the Zerg to sac an ovie and see what he needs to see on certain maps since it can easily be denied by a handful of well placed marines. Simply seeing marines is usually not enough to tell you what strategy the Terran is going for.
A good Zerg essentially has map hacks running in the late game, it's scouting before lair that is the problem.
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On August 03 2010 07:54 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:35 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. :O doesnt work sorry.
Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool)
Dont wall with supplies lulz.
Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same.
You cant read. Noone is talkign about post lair.
Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race.
That sentence doesnt mean anything.
They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers.
Roaches counter neither reapers nor helions. Who in their right mind would try to attack roaches with helions? 0.Doesn't work? I beg to differ. My and Idra's opinion trumps yours
1.They don't wall with supplies? Then still early pool and you can tell what they're going to do (therefore less scout work)
You forgot the original train of thought
2.Just saying that post lair scout is extremely effective, and before then you can scout just fine via poking.
3. Roaches don't counter reapers or helions? Going to let you think about that.
Again, what happens in silver league doesnt really concern me. You have not played Jinro or Lzgamer and their reapers.
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On August 03 2010 08:04 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2010 07:57 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 07:12 nam nam wrote:On August 03 2010 06:16 Pandain wrote:On August 03 2010 05:46 Sfydjklm wrote:On August 03 2010 05:34 kajeus wrote:On August 03 2010 01:56 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:50 Fayth wrote:
suiciding an overlord or 2 seems better than guessing, as costly as scans It's more *costly* than a scan and less effective. P.S. Idra, since you're reading this...congrats on KotB...great games. Keep it up. Huh? It's cheaper than a scan. It's only 100 minerals -- that's like four lings. I play zerg. I agree that scouting is difficult, especially early in the game. But it's not a problem once you get to the midgame. this is not correct. 100 minerals on an extra ovvi fucks up your BOs entirely, not to mention two thirds of the time you wont even be able to scout in the correct spot and die to marines. And also terran a) doesnt need to scout zerg early- zerg has no means to surprise a terran and b) terran has higher income(both actual, and perceived(cost effectiveness of units)) then zerg early game(there is a reason zerg has to outmacro all other races), so losing the 270 on a mule is in a real game a lot less damaging then losing an ovvi is for zerg. Scout with drone at ~12, get in a look. See if they're going fast reaper of helion/rine. Easy peasy. You can even snipe the SCV with the drone if your lucky. Terran needs to scout (how bout baneling bust/early pool) Don't necessarily need to sac an overlord, unless you really need the info NOW. Once you get a lair morph an overseer and than scout with that. Zerg possibly have the best scouting ability due to the changeling, since scans can only be in one place while a changeling can move around and even appear as the enemy. Add to that a scan costs ~300 mins?(since no mule). Overseer is 50 mins 100 gas or vice versa. Point remains the same. Zerg has to outmacro other races because they are basically a macro race. They have weaker units for weaker costs. Heck, roaches counter early reapers or a rine/helion push so all you have to do is scout to see if they're going marduerer. Lings can easily take care of marduerers. On August 03 2010 02:17 Hollwoodxix wrote:On August 03 2010 02:02 Fayth wrote:
anyway I think the game is much more balanced than idra makes it sound like and the style idra plays is always going to be reactionary despite of the race he picks Zerg is a reactionary race no matter who plays it. Zeg's power is in our map control, and our weakness in sc2 is showing to be our lack of variety in our units. Terran's mass variety and turtling strat is making it extremely difficult to go against. Between energy scans and turtling terran has the ability to counter whatever zerg is doing without ever leaving his damn base if he chose so... but with the early game variety terran can end the game before late game ever arrives. im usually not a huge idra fan due to b.m, but when it comes to talking about zerg weakness he knows his shit. Curious how that will help. If you're saying "oh we can have more strats" than you have to keep in mind how hard Zerg can deal with non-mech Terran. Infestors being the prime unit in those scenarios, heck scenarios in general. Theres a few variety terran has with mech but that can be dealt with. Focus on tanks? Punish that. Burrow infestors and whenever they "leapfrog" out send 5 or so Infested terrans to destroy it. Delay it as long as possible until brood lords come out, or ultra. Focus on thors? Neural parasite them and mass roaches. Delay them until hive tech comes out. I agree that Zerg needs to be much more sneaky in dealing with mech, but I disagree that that makes it imbalanced. The above suggestions are vague and unless you want to delve into them are just basic. I can elaborate if you wish. TvZ is not imbalanced. And Idra is not the gospel of balance, especially when he's angry after losing to a lesser known player. On August 03 2010 01:36 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:31 Fayth wrote:
huh yeah right against anyone that's not retarded you're never getting in with ur scv, lings are too fast for that Even assuming he rushes for ling speed (as most Zerg's do), there's still a period before it finishes where you can see if the Zerg is fast teching, going Roach, or going Bling. That's all Terran wants to know anyway. Regardless, the point you're missing is that Zerg NEEDS information to play effectively, whereas Terran does not...everything Zerg does is reactionary -- in a ZvT match, Terran is setting the tone of the game (unless Zerg goes one-base Muta, which if scouted and countered is often gg for Zerg). Mmm I think everyone needs information to win, no? I agree zerg is alot of a reactionary race. I disagree that they can be only that, but it's true that zerg needs to be able to adapt and vary their army composition. Yes Mech is a very strong strategy in the early-mid game. Late game it really starts to pale once ultras or brood lords come out. Zerg needs to be able to hold off until then, and than they will have the decisive advantage. You don't need speed to stop scouts either. In my eyes the problem is that zergs are as well turtling. Now obviously you cannot (usually) attack a tanked-up base. But outside that land you can harras him. He moves out? You move in. Make it so he has to waste a scan to deal with infestors, or he loses a tank after pushing out too far. Little things like this will add up and allow you to gain the advantage once you reach hive. On August 03 2010 01:54 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:47 Fayth wrote:On August 03 2010 01:45 Graven wrote:On August 03 2010 01:38 Fayth wrote:
you might as well maphack Oh, like scan? lol. Sending in two painfully slow overlords to get base coverage is far more costly than a scan (when you count in the positioning time and larvae cost). And even then you're not ensured anything. You should really consider taking a step back from the argument...it's not a conspiracy that these same threads are poping up on every SC2 forum on the internet. There's actually some fire beneath the smoke. well sorry you pretty much lost all credibility when you said the problem for terran was that they could wall in lol I have no problem with you disagreeing with my solution, I just don't see a better one. Making Overlord Speed T1 (though that would force a delayed Lair...) or Overseer T1 (without Contaminate) would fix the problem too possibly. Or hell, maybe make it so Spine Crawlers build faster, so if Terran comes out from behind their wall with a mass of MM, Zerg can react quicker. The issue is that Zerg is reactionary and can't react to what Terran is doing in the early game effectively. All the other OP talk is a result of that inability to scout. On low level games, where people don't scout regardless, it's an empty argument...so they can debate Thors and whatnot all day long. It's on high-level games when scouting is either impossible or greatly difficult that there's an issue. Zerg either need to be able to react quicker or given better scouting options. If not, we're going to see some very random Terran nerfs coming soon. Last post I'll respond to in this post alone(cause it's getting kinda long.) Zerg can scout fine. Overseers are amazing and creep can show you wherever it lays. Prove to me they can't scout and I'll consider more. Your solutions boils down to "delay for hive". That isn't balance. Make zerg mid game stronger against T and weaken the tier 3 if necessary. This will bring a much more fun matchup than what it currently is. I'm saying that winning the game will require hive unless you go for drops or nydus, both viable. If you're going to go headfirst into a tank line backed with thors, you're going to need stronger units. Zerg is able to get these units out in time. Your opinion is valid of course, I'll be thinking about that. I would argue the usefulness of nydas when it comes to countering mech or terran in general except on big maps to defend expansions. I've experimented with nydas quite a lot during the beta and failed to find a consistent offensive strategy with them. Drops can certainly be viable though but I'm not sure it is enough. We'll just have to wait and see how the game evolves, I'm always open to being wrong. (It happens quite a lot)
Been thinking about it. I've decided your partially right. Drops and nyduses can't win you the game, seems to me only let you tech up to hive easier. I'm going to say that yes you will require hive vs. mech, but I'm going to stick with that that does not mean its imbalanced.
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EPT
