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Will the finals be casted AND played at the countdown party? Or will it be a replay?
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Wooo Idra vs TLO! Don't throw these games, Idra!
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On July 24 2010 11:40 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. Of course they haven't but theres quite a few reasonable and stable builds out right now. To summarize my argument really quickly: 1 base builds are much more common now because of lack of highground advantage. Whereas in BW you could expand / tech while surviving with fewer units than the oppoent, in Sc2 the only way to survive is to match his unit count. this is obviously a bit of an oversimplification but I feel that's what it boils down to, and thats why 1 base builds are so good now.
it's not that simple. High ground advantage made expanding on some maps better than others, but it's not that clear cut. SC2 is a much faster game. Units build faster, you get money faster, and you can reach your opponent's base much faster. That's why expanding is hard. In Brood War it's possible to have enough units to defend because your opponent takes forever to reach your base, so the battles will be close.
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On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004.....
Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good.
Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted.
On July 24 2010 11:43 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:40 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. Of course they haven't but theres quite a few reasonable and stable builds out right now. To summarize my argument really quickly: 1 base builds are much more common now because of lack of highground advantage. Whereas in BW you could expand / tech while surviving with fewer units than the oppoent, in Sc2 the only way to survive is to match his unit count. this is obviously a bit of an oversimplification but I feel that's what it boils down to, and thats why 1 base builds are so good now. it's not that simple. High ground advantage made expanding on some maps better than others, but it's not that clear cut. SC2 is a much faster game. Units build faster, you get money faster, and you can reach your opponent's base much faster. That's why expanding is hard. In Brood War it's possible to have enough units to defend because your opponent takes forever to reach your base, so the battles will be close.
True as well, good points. Of course lack of highground advantage isn't the only thing but I do feel its one of the main things. Even in brood war no highground led to many 1 base all ins being extremely viable (every second TvP i play on maps like HBR, matchpoint, and medusa are 10/15 goon rushes, and those maps also cater very well to 4 gate dragoon busts).
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..resolution seems a little distorted but other than that its as good as ever.
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On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted.
i have absolutely nothing to say about your post but...
im a protoss. and i HATE terran.
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On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:43 blabber wrote:On July 24 2010 11:40 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. Of course they haven't but theres quite a few reasonable and stable builds out right now. To summarize my argument really quickly: 1 base builds are much more common now because of lack of highground advantage. Whereas in BW you could expand / tech while surviving with fewer units than the oppoent, in Sc2 the only way to survive is to match his unit count. this is obviously a bit of an oversimplification but I feel that's what it boils down to, and thats why 1 base builds are so good now. it's not that simple. High ground advantage made expanding on some maps better than others, but it's not that clear cut. SC2 is a much faster game. Units build faster, you get money faster, and you can reach your opponent's base much faster. That's why expanding is hard. In Brood War it's possible to have enough units to defend because your opponent takes forever to reach your base, so the battles will be close. True as well, good points. Of course lack of highground advantage isn't the only thing but I do feel its one of the main things. Even in brood war no highground led to many 1 base all ins being extremely viable (every second TvP i play on maps like HBR, matchpoint, and medusa are 10/15 goon rushes, and those maps also cater very well to 4 gate dragoon busts).
No, it's really not. You forget that SC2 is a completely different game compared to BW - just because people are good doesn't mean that they automatically know the game.
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On July 24 2010 11:46 Tempora wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. i have absolutely nothing to say about your post but... im a protoss. and i HATE terran.
Mutual enemies! I wouldn't mind you as much if u didnt have DTs and carriers and recalls  . Heck, I'd even give up spider mines for that 
On July 24 2010 11:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. On July 24 2010 11:43 blabber wrote:On July 24 2010 11:40 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. Of course they haven't but theres quite a few reasonable and stable builds out right now. To summarize my argument really quickly: 1 base builds are much more common now because of lack of highground advantage. Whereas in BW you could expand / tech while surviving with fewer units than the oppoent, in Sc2 the only way to survive is to match his unit count. this is obviously a bit of an oversimplification but I feel that's what it boils down to, and thats why 1 base builds are so good now. it's not that simple. High ground advantage made expanding on some maps better than others, but it's not that clear cut. SC2 is a much faster game. Units build faster, you get money faster, and you can reach your opponent's base much faster. That's why expanding is hard. In Brood War it's possible to have enough units to defend because your opponent takes forever to reach your base, so the battles will be close. True as well, good points. Of course lack of highground advantage isn't the only thing but I do feel its one of the main things. Even in brood war no highground led to many 1 base all ins being extremely viable (every second TvP i play on maps like HBR, matchpoint, and medusa are 10/15 goon rushes, and those maps also cater very well to 4 gate dragoon busts). No, it's really not. You forget that SC2 is a completely different game compared to BW - just because people are good doesn't mean that they automatically know the game.
The overall mechanics are still almost identical.
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On July 24 2010 11:48 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:46 Tempora wrote:On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. i have absolutely nothing to say about your post but... im a protoss. and i HATE terran. Mutual enemies! I wouldn't mind you as much if u didnt have DTs and carriers and recalls . Heck, I'd even give up spider mines for that Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. On July 24 2010 11:43 blabber wrote:On July 24 2010 11:40 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. Of course they haven't but theres quite a few reasonable and stable builds out right now. To summarize my argument really quickly: 1 base builds are much more common now because of lack of highground advantage. Whereas in BW you could expand / tech while surviving with fewer units than the oppoent, in Sc2 the only way to survive is to match his unit count. this is obviously a bit of an oversimplification but I feel that's what it boils down to, and thats why 1 base builds are so good now. it's not that simple. High ground advantage made expanding on some maps better than others, but it's not that clear cut. SC2 is a much faster game. Units build faster, you get money faster, and you can reach your opponent's base much faster. That's why expanding is hard. In Brood War it's possible to have enough units to defend because your opponent takes forever to reach your base, so the battles will be close. True as well, good points. Of course lack of highground advantage isn't the only thing but I do feel its one of the main things. Even in brood war no highground led to many 1 base all ins being extremely viable (every second TvP i play on maps like HBR, matchpoint, and medusa are 10/15 goon rushes, and those maps also cater very well to 4 gate dragoon busts). No, it's really not. You forget that SC2 is a completely different game compared to BW - just because people are good doesn't mean that they automatically know the game. The overall mechanics are still almost identical.
So? Units, timings, etc... All of this is completely different. That's the stuff that takes the longest to figure out, not base mechanics.
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day-9 should really get jinro to co-cast the next major thing he does. jinro seemed like he would make a good foil to day-9 from listening to him on the state of the game podcasts. i think they would have a good rapport as far as comedy goes, especially since i understand they have been friends for a while, and day-9 could cover color commentary while jinro does in-depth analysis.
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United States5162 Posts
**Patiently waiting for Idra rage when he gives up a game**
Oh, and even though players better understand how to approach an RTS, it will still take time for mechanics to evolve and builds to become standard. It will take less time then in BW, but still more time then 4 months of beta that had constant changes. I'll start to worry if in a year the game is predominantly 1 base strats, but there is still to much unexplored to say that's how things will turn out.
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Idra is sexy when he goes for a real composition like this.
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On July 24 2010 11:50 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2010 11:48 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:46 Tempora wrote:On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. i have absolutely nothing to say about your post but... im a protoss. and i HATE terran. Mutual enemies! I wouldn't mind you as much if u didnt have DTs and carriers and recalls . Heck, I'd even give up spider mines for that On July 24 2010 11:48 Stratos_speAr wrote:On July 24 2010 11:44 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:37 Entropic wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. People seriously forget how BW was 2001-2004..... Yea, back when gimmicky shit like proxy hatchery --> sunken push and quick lurker drop were popular, I know. But you're also forgetting no1 knew how to play RTS back then and the scene was nowhere near as competitive. People just played for fun, which is why low econ games where good. Now, on the other hand, we have pros with years of competitive RTS playing AND the best way to be successful now is to find stable openings that give you a good midgame economy. People's skill and general approach to the game are vastly different, so saying "remember BW was like this too in the beginning" is kinda shortsighted. On July 24 2010 11:43 blabber wrote:On July 24 2010 11:40 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:35 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:29 SubtleArt wrote:On July 24 2010 11:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On July 24 2010 11:16 SubtleArt wrote:
Wow, this game definately favors 1 basing way more than BW did. Over half of the games in this tourney have been like 10 minutes long. Can we please have highground advantage back? People haven't stamped out build orders and proper counters to early game. So lots of counters simply win the game outright because people haven't found the proper balance of their builds to prevent that type of thing. It goes beyond that though. Theres just a lot of viable options on 1 base and u can mass more units on 1 base now than u could in brood war, partly due to all the macro mechanics. Early warpgate pushes for example are just deadly. On top of that with no highground advantage its much much easier to win just by having more units. For example u can have like a 3 stalker advantage and just win by busting a ramp whereas in BW PvP ud need like a 10 dragoon advantage to bust 2 zealots and a few goons on a ramp. Basically now its super hard to defend without simply having more units, which is why 1 basing strats are so viable. Also the games been out for over 4 months now, with so many top players constantly working out new builds, so we're slowly leaving the "don't worry, its just cause everyones clueless at the game" stage I agree somewhat. While this game does have many more viable 1 base builds, there are not as many that will remain viable after timings and counters are really thought about. Further, arguing that we've been playing for 4 months is meaningless given how large many patch changes were. People will really learn how and when cutting workers is necessary, timing windows for failed attacks will mean people will stop doing earlier strategies as well. This kind of talk happened for years in BW and strategies kept evolving and ones that were once standard are outdated. Just because we have more experience in RTS now doesn't mean all of the top players are simply gods and have worked out all of the kinks in their game and strategies. Of course they haven't but theres quite a few reasonable and stable builds out right now. To summarize my argument really quickly: 1 base builds are much more common now because of lack of highground advantage. Whereas in BW you could expand / tech while surviving with fewer units than the oppoent, in Sc2 the only way to survive is to match his unit count. this is obviously a bit of an oversimplification but I feel that's what it boils down to, and thats why 1 base builds are so good now. it's not that simple. High ground advantage made expanding on some maps better than others, but it's not that clear cut. SC2 is a much faster game. Units build faster, you get money faster, and you can reach your opponent's base much faster. That's why expanding is hard. In Brood War it's possible to have enough units to defend because your opponent takes forever to reach your base, so the battles will be close. True as well, good points. Of course lack of highground advantage isn't the only thing but I do feel its one of the main things. Even in brood war no highground led to many 1 base all ins being extremely viable (every second TvP i play on maps like HBR, matchpoint, and medusa are 10/15 goon rushes, and those maps also cater very well to 4 gate dragoon busts). No, it's really not. You forget that SC2 is a completely different game compared to BW - just because people are good doesn't mean that they automatically know the game. The overall mechanics are still almost identical. So? Units, timings, etc... All of this is completely different. That's the stuff that takes the longest to figure out, not base mechanics.
Yea but the required skill set is, like I said, identical. If ur pro at Sc1 you're also extremely good at Sc2, once u figure out the basic info
Also man, Idras style is pretty much the direct counter to TLOs
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stream seems fine now
that is many tanks yes?
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Mass tanks , what a suprise ;p
After qxc great offensive play , yet again perma def and mass tanks , im fed up with it gogo idra
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wow, impressive by idra wpwp
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lol and the ultra/hydra runover takes it
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YEAHHHHH IDRA game one. He shut down all of TLO's annoying harass then out-macro'd him. GO GO game 2!
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EPT
