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On July 23 2010 16:57 st3roids wrote:
Havent seen game 3 tester vs tlo
but
Game 2 was a shame rly.
Srsly tlo man , i was cheering for u for such a long time , but playing terran in the long run seems to make u predictable and boring.
Wtf same strategy just like with huk to have an easy win.
rly shame for protoss to outplay terran the whole time , but because of siege tanks and bcs not able to win yet again.
there no skill involve sorry just siege tanks seere overpowereness.
I said i wanted to see how a protoss can win a turtling terran but it was more of a rhetorical question cause rly you cannot unless you pull some short of early - call it cheese - i call it superior creativity.
He didn't win because of tanks, he won because he took out tester's expo early on, and just kept the lead from there. He was always ahead economically for the rest of the game.
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Kind of disappointing for a game 3, but the fault is TLO's. Void ray is one of the typical openings a protoss can do, and is even more common in PvT; so a terran build that cannot counter fast void ray is a bad build in general. Not trying to hate on TLO, he's got incredible skill and game 2 is the proof, but he really shouldn't have lost that last game... he should've been the one to kick tester's ass!!!
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On July 23 2010 17:01 DeckOneBell wrote:
s you pull some short of early - call it cheese - i call it superior creativity.
He didn't win because of tanks, he won because he took out tester's expo early on, and just kept the lead from there. He was always ahead economically for the rest of the game.[/QUOTE]
He won cause tester couldnt break the freaking mass siege tank defences regardless of how many mid pushes he won or not.
Tester had like 5-6 expos and all the time was always attacking whereas after only one tlo push , which failed he was turtling the whole time.
So inspiring make 10 siege tanks make another 10 bunkers which you can salvage after , pack on mules and try tech into bcs to win .
The same thing happened vs poor huk who outplayed tlo in most of the time , but huk been huk and not having a gazzilion of funs to support end up been a looser of some sort.
6 games so far o vs protoss and we have seen 5 times the same strategy.
Make siege tanks - defend the whole time - mule to have the same economy as a 5 base protoss push ith bcs and win.
and the funny part is NONE i mean NO ONE can win vs that not even the best protoss on the whole freaking earth which they have to rely on an early vray rush to win a game from a terran.
Yea not boring and predictable at all.
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On July 23 2010 17:09 st3roids wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:09 st3roids wrote:On July 23 2010 17:01 DeckOneBell wrote:
s you pull some short of early - call it cheese - i call it superior creativity. He didn't win because of tanks, he won because he took out tester's expo early on, and just kept the lead from there. He was always ahead economically for the rest of the game. He won cause tester couldnt break the freaking mass siege tank defences regardless of how many mid pushes he won or not. Tester had like 5-6 expos and all the time was always attacking whereas after only one tlo push , which failed he was turtling the whole time. So inspiring make 10 siege tanks make another 10 bunkers which you can salvage after , pack on mules and try tech into bcs to win . The same thing happened vs poor huk who outplayed tlo in most of the time , but huk been huk and not having a gazzilion of funs to support end up been a looser of some sort. 6 games so far o vs protoss and we have seen 5 times the same strategy. Make siege tanks - defend the whole time - mule to have the same economy as a 5 base protoss push ith bcs and win. and the funny part is NONE i mean NO ONE can win vs that not even the best protoss on the whole freaking earth which they have to rely on an early vray rush to win a game from a terran. Yea not boring and predictable at all.
Why be hatin' on TLO? He did nice drops throughout the whole game. He isn't an example of what you're trying to say imo. And i think balance discussions can go to other threads? :p
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On July 23 2010 17:09 st3roids wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 17:01 DeckOneBell wrote:
s you pull some short of early - call it cheese - i call it superior creativity. He didn't win because of tanks, he won because he took out tester's expo early on, and just kept the lead from there. He was always ahead economically for the rest of the game.
He won cause tester couldnt break the freaking mass siege tank defences regardless of how many mid pushes he won or not.
Tester had like 5-6 expos and all the time was always attacking whereas after only one tlo push , which failed he was turtling the whole time.
So inspiring make 10 siege tanks make another 10 bunkers which you can salvage after , pack on mules and try tech into bcs to win .
The same thing happened vs poor huk who outplayed tlo in most of the time , but huk been huk and not having a gazzilion of funs to support end up been a looser of some sort.
6 games so far o vs protoss and we have seen 5 times the same strategy.
Make siege tanks - defend the whole time - mule to have the same economy as a 5 base protoss push ith bcs and win.
and the funny part is NONE i mean NO ONE can win vs that not even the best protoss on the whole freaking earth which they have to rely on an early vray rush to win a game from a terran.
Yea not boring and predictable at all.[/QUOTE]
I'm a toss too and I have to say TLO overall outplayed Tester in game 2. He had so much harass going on that tester could never overpower him, and one of testers best moments in the game (when he jumped into the base with the blink stalkers) ending up with him down a fresh expo and losing most of his stalkers due to TLO's better multitasking on that occasion.
Great game by both players. TLO is a bit weak early on however and needs to shore up that part of his game.
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I cannot hate a player like tlo , nor any gamer cause is just a game and hate is a big word rly.
but earlier beta tlo vs this tlo it isnt even a contest , he used to play random and do all the wonderfull things with zerg especially and never stay on full defensive mode.
He did few drops vs an open wide Tester in game2 after 1 hour of defence mode whereas tester loosing all the units in pointless attacks vs siege tanks and bunkers.
why a race should be able to stay in 2 bases like forever and been virtually non penetradable whereas the other 2 cant is beyond me.
If u like seeing Terran player been in def mode forver till they are like 200/200 and do a big push and state that this is innovating and wonderfull fine , i just cant
tommorow vs idra - i would never think i could actually vote for idra to win like ever but at least he didnt jumped into the terran badwagon nor he ever tried to turtle like no tommorow.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
super turtling -> BCs are nice but nothing to really get excited about. i would choose to see TLO's zerg play all day long.
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Ok ok, game 2 of TLO vs Tester was entertaining...
But... really ? I mean... TLO teched to factory, expanded and had still a lot more units than tester. For me it just shows how incredibly hard it is to expand early vs terran.
Then TLO showed poor micro and macro in mid game (I know this is blasphemous... but 2k minerals and gas, bad timed attack, pure a-move, etc.).
On the process, colossi were another time showed as not really viable vs terran because of the 2shots by 5 vikings. :/
Then tanks arrived. TLO could just siege mode, planetary fortress, and then go on drop mode. Protoss is mobile ? REALLY ? Just look at this game... k the race is mobile when doing a 4gate push with pylons and stuff. But 2 well placed turret, 3stimmed marines or a viking and bye bye warp prism.
Ok this was epic. Both players played really well at the end. But for me it also showed the lack of responses for protoss to the turtle + drops everywhere...
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What I wonder is this:
If TLO beat Idra, will TLO then opt to play Zerg against ITR or will it be a horrendous TvT?
IIf not I must be rooting for Idra, vs TLO, because I need to see Zerg play even though they´re too weak to actually be able to win the tournament. TLOs Zerg was the best thing in the whole beta for me, so I mourn his switch from random to T. Second best is Idra zerg, because sometime he do pull out a win or two from T or P, as long as T or P doesn´t go for quick cheese to win the game early.
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TLO still plays plenty of Zerg, he just had to stick with 1 race per matchup in this tournament and as he didn't have much time to practice and the massive creep tumour change messed up all his timings he decided to go Terran in this tournament.
I think all the games in this tournament - despite being entertaining for the most part - really show how the break between beta 1 and beta 2 and the short time the players had to prepare, was detrimental to the level the players are able to perform.
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It shows how far away we still are regarding the skill cap of the game. Dont get me wrong, this was one of the best games of SC2 so far, very entertaining, a lot of unit types involved and epic battles.
I think what we saw was just how underused Protoss T3 and up is. IIRC Tester made a mothership short before TLO's first Battlecruiser - an earlier tech switch to Mothership/voidray inclduing some zealots to burn the overmins or even carriers would have been a much higher thread to TLO since he spend a lot of money on anti-ground (2 planetary fortresses, a lot of tanks and maruaders, very few turrets and marines). It really reminded me, despite the fact I hate comparing SC2 stuff to BW, an old days PvT where a huge fleet is the "if all else fails" strategy for Protoss.
I'm pretty sure (and excited) to see that being more common in the very near future.
Regarding the Void Ray - it's simply the answer to the "all ground" push TLO is doing and Tester also did a good job microing his ground force as well and kept track that his Voidrays are charged all the time. It's like a zergling rush to punish a protoss who loves teching. Is mass ling cheese? Except a 4/6 pool totally not. All people are unhappy about is that this was a way too short and unentertaining game we expected from two such great players - but they played for a lot of money and Tester only made a reasonable decision that assured him the win. - period.
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I enjoyed how TLO was all over the map simultaneously - so fast and so multitasking that even Day9 was challenged as observer to follow him (he had to mention it). And Day9 as US WCG champion and double vice-champion knows a little something about viewing control (you will notice that his ability to move quickly through the map when he casts is quite unmatched by other casters). This multitasking ability of TLO, his micro, and a little flavor of unusual builds, are the ingredients which make TLO so lovable by most viewers. Even when he loses a game, he often wins admiration and support.
I really hope the Asian players don't experience too much lag. If anything, it could influence them towards more cheesy (risky) plays, because if your computer is lagging, taking bigger risks becomes the main reasonable option + ending the game early prevents reaching the late macro stages with even more lag. It's very good that the tournament's finals are going to be played live, hopefully without any latency issues. As I've said before, I think players' latency/tech response/fps should be recorded by the server and included in the replays. Hope Blizzard considers this someday.
The European players also play noticeably more cheesy in US-server tournaments, for similar technical reasons, while their EU-ladder behavior is likely more solid.
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On July 23 2010 18:03 figq wrote:
I enjoyed how TLO was all over the map simultaneously - so fast and so multitasking that even Day9 was challenged as observer to follow him (he had to mention it). And Day9 as US WCG champion and double vice-champion knows a little something about viewing control (you will notice that his ability to move quickly through the map when he casts is quite unmatched by other casters). This multitasking ability of TLO, his micro, and a little flavor of unusual builds, are the ingredients which make TLO so lovable by most viewers. Even when he loses a game, he often wins admiration and support.
I really hope the Asian players don't experience too much lag. If anything, it could influence them towards more cheesy (risky) plays, because if your computer is lagging, taking bigger risks becomes the main reasonable option + ending the game early prevents reaching the late macro stages with even more lag. It's very good that the tournament's finals are going to be played live, hopefully without any latency issues. As I've said before, I think players' latency/tech response/fps should be recorded by the server and included in the replays. Hope Blizzard considers this someday.
well ya TLO can hop up to like 300 apm when he needs to.
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Really enjoyed game 2 from TLO vs Tester, just to bad he couldn't manage to counter the void rays earlier. Should have tried keeping that SCV a touch longer in the main to spot that stargate or atleast delay it.
But game 2 oh man, all of those drops then the mothership recall and at the same time the small drop in testers main, nerdgasm.
Rooting for TLO still the whole way, pretty sure he can advance vs Idra and go all the way!
Go German power! :D
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+ Show Spoiler +In the case of a tie, which is likely to happen tomorrow because of QXC vs ITR, are wins determined by the player's record or each series counting as one win/loss. If the latter is true, then that means if QXC loses tomorrow there is a three way tie, correct? But if the the former is true, then if QXC gets 2-0'd by ITR, White-Ra advances and if he goes 1-2 vs ITR, White-Ra and QXC face off, right?
EDIT: Ah I see, ty figq
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A lot of pointless arguing going on here, wouldn't it be better to just appreciate the fact that these games were played and casted? There are more interesting things to do than argue my friends. ^^
TLO vs Tester G2 was pretty entertaining, some nice action on both parts (drops and things like that). Maybe Tester should have expanded earlier considering TLO's defensive stance. Not sure.
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On July 23 2010 13:08 lyhb wrote:
tlo got a lucky snipe on the nexus...
i was more impress on testers play than tlo in that game
EDITED: tester didnt do anything for the majority of the game but defend that game.. except for the one mother ship recall, and a mid game push.
if recall correctly Tester expanded after losing a bunch of probes to harass and when he had something like 2 stalkers 2 sentry off 1 gate way. not a very smart decision TLO obviously couldnt let that go unpunished
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On July 23 2010 18:31 Soulous wrote:Show nested quote +In the case of a tie, which is likely to happen tomorrow because of QXC vs ITR, are wins determined by the player's record or each series counting as one win/loss. If the latter is true, then that means if QXC loses tomorrow there is a three way tie, correct? But if the the former is true, then if QXC gets 2-0'd by ITR, White-Ra advances and if he goes 1-2 vs ITR, White-Ra and QXC face off, right? I have no confirmation, but I am going to assume it's completely determined right now - using first priority the match difference / number of matches won/, then the game difference, then the number of games won, then the direct matches between two players:
+ Show Spoiler +1. Qxc loses 0:2 - WhiteRa advances, because of better game difference compared to him and Dimaga.
2. Qxc loses 1:2 - WhiteRa advances, because they are perfectly tied, but WhiteRa already beat Qxc in the direct match between them
3. Qxc wins - Qxc advances.
Again, I have no confirmation, but that's how most leagues are ordered.
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Very interesting games between TLO and Tester, though Day9 missed one nuke completely and he didn't say anything to the gold expansion in game 2. While he didn't destroy the rocks, he still took his CC there and saved up mules from every Orbital Command, so he can get the extra income from the gold. Even though I was rooting for TLO, I don't think that game 3 was bad, Tester made the right decision, if you look at TLO's opening and the close spawn position, it's only reasonable to try to punish your opponent for not taking this into consideration.
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I'm a toss too and I have to say TLO overall outplayed Tester in game 2. He had so much harass going on that tester could never overpower him, and one of testers best moments in the game (when he jumped into the base with the blink stalkers) ending up with him down a fresh expo and losing most of his stalkers due to TLO's better multitasking on that occasion.
well if ur a toss and u think tester was outplayed i can only asume that you're in copper.
Tester was for SURE in the lead after he hit back TLO's failed push that shouldve caused the GG right then and there...
The reason tester could not win with push is because siege tanks are ridiculously good not because TLo had some magical micro or macro.. for fuck sake.. see the reality -_-
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EPT
