EPT
Slush vs Artosis - Page 4
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Mikami_
Estonia274 Posts
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zTz
United States476 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Artosis vs Cauthonluck Mock final-- give the people what they want!! + Show Spoiler + Artosis vs Slush best of 9 grudgematch!! Headline grudgematch with the highly anticipated Idra vs Smuft -- talk about viewer numbers... | ||
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UbiNax
Denmark381 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:17 Eury wrote: It wasn't 100%. 100% would had been if Slush had an extractor and nothing else. not gonna discuss with you if it was 100% or not... the replay and OP speaks for itself it was a 100% win -- As i edited in my previous post just now. on that note i think a solution could be: Take away slush's TLI 2# title and price money and let artosis play against Cauthonluck in the finals. And even though Slush should have conceded the game and given the win to artosis then he should get a showmatch with pricemoney to make up for it. | ||
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University
United States263 Posts
Artosis deserved this from playing as well as he did. I just hope that next time he can react to a sticky situation as maturely as TL has done here instead of flying off the handle. He played really well though and I am glad his play is getting the recognition it deserves with the 100% win. Hopefully he will have an equally professional and apologetic response for his rash behavior during the decision process. | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:20 UbiNax wrote: + Show Spoiler + On May 09 2010 12:17 Eury wrote: It wasn't 100%. 100% would had been if Slush had an extractor and nothing else. not gonna discuss with you if it was 100% or not... the replay and OP speaks for itself it was a 100% win If you are not going to discuss it then I suggest you stop posting about it. | ||
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GenoZStriker
United States2914 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:19 Mikami_ wrote: Wait.. why TL has staff members who haven't played the game reviewing and making win/loss decisions in the first place Obviously the have played Starcraft 2. But the "excuse" is that they do not play the game on the same level as these players to make a judgement. They called the game 99% / 1% in favor of Artosis and not 100% / 0% O boy, wait till WCG/ESL and all those esports organizations come along. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:04 BroOd wrote: I'm going to post so you get the perspective of one of the people involved in reviewing the replay and coming to what we can now acknowledge was a poor decision. At the time, we had to weigh the idea of 99% winning vs 100% winning. The line between the two is small but profound. As someone who hasn't played SC2 enough yet to know how large army battles will come out (I thought slush had the left-side battle won easily with those fungal growths), I couldn't say for certain that Slush had 0% chance of ever coming back in any possible universe. It was unfortunate that we didn't have someone more knowledgable on hand at the time to make a more informed call, but c'est la vie. We were well aware that artosis was very ahead. The issue is that if you get the win in a situation where you're only 99% winning, you essentially benefit from your own disconnect by denying your opponent the opportunity (no matter how infinitesimal it might be) to try to make a comeback. Every player deserves the right to keep fighting until he's dead or taps out, and there's no way one player should get to take away that right if they were were the one who disconnected. Rules have to be broadly applicable and easily definable. What I mean is that the rules that apply to one person and their games have to stand for every other game to maintain fairness. How do we judge how far ahead someone was objectively, with what critera? How can we apply that standard to other games in the future? Were you 99% ahead? 95%? And is that the line? Or is the line 88% ahead? That said, after having time to review the game and get input from better players than I, I can certainly defer to their opinion and concede that artosis had won 100%, and should have been awarded that win post-disconnect. At the time, it wasn't that clear, and the fairest option for both players seemed to be to offer a re-game. I can certainly say it was a mistake, and a very unfortunate situation for both artosis and slush. The most we can try to gain from this, like Nazgul said, is the ability to judge these situations better in the future. I hope this helped explain some of the reasons why this whole situation boiled into what it did. When TL admins like Nazgul and Kennigit make tough decisions like this, they do so in good faith and with the best interests of the players and the tournament in mind, it's important to remember that. The problem here is with the rules that Kennigit and the original decision enforced: the actual decision is left to the other player [ slush ]. It was entirely up to Slush to man up and say gg to concede the game or fall to plan B and let the regame happen which as all would agree is already unfair to Artosis before the rematch is even started. What SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED and should happen in the future is there should always be one ref and one knowledgeable player. All this talk about preparation and hard work to continue the stream, all should agree it is not unreasonable to have at least 1 ref and 1 knowledgeable player at all times...Even in a situation like this where the tourney goes on for 8 hours or whatever. You admit that you are not familiar enough with SC2 to make a decision about armies. In a 99% won game, a knowledgeable player like Naz is gonna give it to Artosis aka the RIGHT DECISION. I think its funny how you are able to discern the difference between 99% and 100% yet just prior you mention how you are unable to judge the outcome of large army battles. If there is 1 ref and 1 knowledgeable player for every game, the decision is never ever left up to one of the participating players. This is what is fair. | ||
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Thamoo
Canada234 Posts
The losing playing is happy for a chance to get back in the game. For the winning player well its manly his fault that he DC'd, getting a rematch is already much better than being granted an instant loss so I think they'd be fine with it. Btw I support Slush 100% for taking his chance. You enter a tournament to win, not to play gentleman. Just look in real sports how much BM there is. | ||
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SiegeFlank
United States410 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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Wintermute
United States427 Posts
On May 09 2010 11:44 NeoOmega wrote: Nazgul's reaction > Kennigit reaction . They're both appropriate reactions. Both of them were/are right, IMO. Normally I am rubbed the wrong way by Kennigit's lack of tact, but it's not as if Artosis was showing any tact either. I think based on his behavior, he got the best he deserved. That said, obviously we can all watch that replay and judge that the only way Artosis would lose that game was if he just decided to stop trying for several minutes while Slush rebuilt, and even then he'd still have the advantage. So if they'd awarded him the win, you could say it's fair based on the overwhelming advantage he enjoyed. | ||
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UbiNax
Denmark381 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:21 Eury wrote: If you are not going to discuss it then I suggest you stop posting about it. Oh as i said in my post " im not gonna discuss it with (you) " i will discuss it with anyone else because they clearly see that it was a 100% win which you dont. The end. | ||
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NukeGoesKABOOM
United States5 Posts
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shinosai
United States1577 Posts
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zerglingsfolife
United States1694 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:26 NukeGoesKABOOM wrote: It's a shame Nazgul was forced into posting this thanks to the childish reaction of not only Artosis but a vast majority of the posters in the thread he started. I think it's good for discussion sometimes. If TL can come out of this situation with a better known and discussed policy, there will be less drama/less chance of error than if this came up for a major tournament like TSL 3 (fingers crossed). | ||
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SuperXlax
United States197 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:28 shinosai wrote: ...seed in a future tourney... =) That sounds great O.o | ||
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Tadzio
3340 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:19 Mikami_ wrote: Wait.. why TL has staff members who haven't played the game reviewing and making win/loss decisions in the first place We've all played it, very few of us are 1800+ plat. Still, we should've done more to get an authority on high-level play to review the replay. While I'm posting... many of you seem to be under the impression that our decision was to give Slush the win. That's incorrect. We forced a re-game, which is quite different. Slush did beat Artosis in their final game. It's true they shouldn't have had to play that final game but Slush, for his part, earned his victory. We're the one's that messed up. | ||
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GenoZStriker
United States2914 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:28 shinosai wrote: I don't think that it's necessarily the right thing to do to make Slush forfeit his prize money or force him to continue playing for it. It was a bad call, but you can't just presume Artosis would have beaten all the opponents that Slush did. The right thing to do is to give Artosis a consolation prize or a seed in a future tourney.... or again, buy him a new stick of ram so he'll stop dc'ing, lol. =) Agreed. Despite this shit of a drama, Slush played really well against both Louder and Cauthonluck. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On May 09 2010 12:23 Thamoo wrote: Great responce by tl. Tbh I think if one is massively ahead and gets DC's, they should do a rematch, not simply awarding the win to the other. The losing playing is happy for a chance to get back in the game. For the winning player well its manly his fault that he DC'd, getting a rematch is already much better than being granted an instant loss so I think they'd be fine with it. Btw I support Slush 100% for taking his chance. You enter a tournament to win, not to play gentleman. Just look in real sports how much BM there is. But an e-sports community has always been wrapped in the concept of good manner. Just because real sports is a "BM" event doesn't justify doing something like this. I'm a bit neutral on the whole issue as I wasn't here to watch it, but seeing someone else kick someone in the face doesn't justify your actions. If Slush didn't man up, then he should have. That's the end of the story. It doesn't matter if Artosis was whining or whatever, if someone doesn't man up, then that's a BM play that shouldn't be accepted in an e-sports community. | ||
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B-Roll
United States403 Posts
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