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Diamadoshikiller
France56 Posts
I have the feeling that in LOTV early and mid-game is smaller than in HOTS or WOL. It's like at 8 minutes we are in the late-game and at 12 minutes in very late-game. If it's real, it's a big problem for MMM because mid-game is crucial for bio. Actually terran are obliged to use support units like tank, liberator, mine to have a chance in late game. However terran lose mobility. Perhaps start with 12 workers give more importance to gas units wich bring us faster to late game. | ||
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ArtyK
France3143 Posts
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5518 Posts
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jimminy_kriket
Canada5518 Posts
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
Now, zergs and protoss (and mech palyers to an extent) try to cut it out and go straight from early to lategame (fast 3rd, double upgrades, fast tech). Now this doesn't mean midgame disappeared, however this does mean that you do have to "force it out of them". By that I mean be aggressive, or at least show your army, be threatening (without necessarily attacking) just to force them to spend ressources on units, which will delay their lategame. As bio terran, you have to be aggressive, sitting back and macroing is not an option. But that's the choice you make when going for bio ! Edit: after more thought, I have a new point below. I believe this "midgame disappeared"-feeling is kinda specific to bio terrans (or at least they tend to feel it more). This is because in LOTV, the time it takes for bio to be operationnal is mostly unchanged (barracks build time, TL build time, stim/CS research time, factory build time, starport build time, reactor build time, medivacs build time, eventually Ebay buildtime and +1 research time). However, the other races/playstyles benefit from the 12 harvester start to take a "lead" (compared to where they would be in WoL/HotS), like setting up a quicker 3rd (and 4th), teching up (quicker hydras or collo/storm, etc). Meanwhile, the bio terran can only use the additionnal ressources from the 12 harvesters to have more units but not move out earlier... So they feel like the time window where bio is at its advantage is smaller (which is true). | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
Thor changes and liberators made that win condition almost impossible to achieve, and hydra,bane and ultra buffs gave a much more linear progression. It's not that we don't have mid-game now, it was that mid-game tech was overly stretched back then. | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
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Sound1
France93 Posts
I have the same feeling. Since beginning of LOTV I have the feeling all go too fast. As soon as you start a game it is already T3 units time, but as Terran has no T3 units, he has to be agressiv on the map all game long to denied opponent's expension and keep him busy. For me, mid game starts after first agression/harass to slow down opponent's eco. Then you add your 2nd and 3th racks, and start to prod as you go with a small squad to denied opponent's 3th base. Often that is my death as my macro goes wild and my harass squad disapears in front a bunch of speedlings or stalkers. then I can kindly GG  | ||
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Diamadoshikiller
France56 Posts
I agree with: - Now, zergs and protoss (and mech palyers to an extent) try to cut it out and go straight from early to lategame (fast 3rd, double upgrades, fast tech)( me: or they cheese). - this does mean that you do have to "force it out of them". By that I mean be aggressive. - As soon as you start a game it is already T3 units time, but as Terran has no T3 units, he has to be agressiv on the map all game long to denied opponent's expension and keep him busy. For me mecha unit is more support units for bio to help end the game. - the time it takes for bio to be operationnal is mostly unchanged... However, the other races/playstyles benefit from the 12 harvester start to take a "lead" (compared to where they would be in WoL/HotS), like setting up a quicker 3rd (and 4th), teching up (quicker hydras or collo/storm, etc). Meanwhile, the bio terran can only use the additionnal ressources from the 12 harvesters to have more units but not move out earlier... That is the BIG POINT!!!! Thank's man to explain it sooo welll. Now terran need other units like tank/mine and liberator too push. But this composition have less mobility than MMM. - For me, mid game starts after first agression/harass to slow down opponent's eco. It's generally around 4:30 with mines drop or with double medivac drop at 5:00. But i think mid-games for terran start when stim is finish. Actually it's more around 5:30. It's a timing terran can start to press Z or P. That say terran have just 2:30 to do damage. I disagree whith: - at least show your army, be threatening (without necessarily attacking) just to force them to spend ressources on units, which will delay their lategame. NowTerran bio (plat/diamond) have to do good damage to have a chance. For exemple: kill tech, kill third nexus, kill minimum around 10 probs. To do that terran need a lot of skill Now i test 2 bases all-in bio style and that work well. I think bio have a little window. To play 3 bases macro you have to use other tools. | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Now they have, like every other races to tech and change their compositions thorought the game and then can no longer just rally units from buildings they made at the beginning of the game. | ||
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AaBbCc
New Zealand110 Posts
The asymmetric design of SC means each race has the initiative (or 'the ball' as Day-9 put it) at different stages. Previously, the window was probably a bit long for bio, especially given 'terrible-terrible damage' meant a mid-game lead usually ended in victory. The LOTV economy and design changes have obviously condensed the midgame for all races meaning T's initiative is reduced, vs Z once Hydras are out and vs. P 3-base gateway units can compete with upgraded bio until splash is out. I feel Terran's mid-game edge vs. P has been particularly eroded. Against Z the terran can often maintain an upgrade advantage, whereas vs. protoss who now seem to have the initiative in the early game, are even in the midgame and are very hard in the late game. I agree with the opinion that on even footing, bio shouldn't be able to trade favorably with T3 units of any race but it's not exactly easy to transition or tech switch (by design) unless you're quite ahead. I like the idea of each race being strong at different points but I also think the mid-game is probably a little too condensed now given it's usually the only window T has. Innovation is one player who understands that this window of opportunity is short - and he tries to make sure his 2 base (or fast 3cc no armory) midgame pushes vs. P always hit as the upgrades are finishing. If T only has a 1-2 minute chance to do damage and take an edge, then a 15-30s delay is massive. Finally - I don't this should really be a huge problem at lower levels. | ||
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Diamadoshikiller
France56 Posts
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LoneYoShi
France1348 Posts
On January 27 2018 20:02 Diamadoshikiller wrote: All GSL TvP games are the same. Terran try to make damage before 8 minutes (kill probes or third nexus). When they make massive damage they win, when not they loose. No mech play but 4M into ghost or liberator. Yes, TvP is quite timing based at the GSL level at the moment... I'm glad I'm not playing at that level, other stuff still works for me in dia1! :-D | ||
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GrandTerran
71 Posts
Just a different game I guess. FE seems to work well, and then do a two base timing attack and I can do enough damage at my level to then expand a few more times and keep the pressure on Just getting boring doing the same thing everytime! | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
and you can accurately tell me qty. and where your units are going to be at a crucial point of executing it. because if the timing is even 20 seconds off, there's another warpin round and it is no longer a timing, it's just some build. if your timing is a 2 base all-in and it's half a minute late simply for being late and poorly executed, that is 600+ minerals worth of units they have extra. whatever the equivalent of 12 marines is. it is game deciding. guys, the higher level you go, the more your games are going to look the same. it happens in practically any competitive game out there. if not for you playing the same, it's to get the game into a comfortable and understandable situation for u to react in. you break this if you're able to be that much better than your opponent, or your mechanics are so on-point that you can get away with walking across the map when you feel like. i think midgame is the move you make right before you secure your third. after this it is all tempo and defending against one another while taking bases just as your main is about to expire. protoss (vs Z) goes phx -> oracle -> adept glaives / warp prism archon chargelot / immortal sentry storm zerg builds 3rd hatch -> defends gasless or minimally with zergling baneling -> OV speed -> lair by 5 -> hydra + x terran out of all the races seems to have the most builds for the early into midgame. (and they need them.) some skip reaper, some go to cyclone, some build banshee into a couple liberators, some build marine tank, some still do hellbat timings and mech, and some build bio and drain their medivacs dry while they take base after base. it is harassment after harassment. some are banking on hunter seeker missile now. previously you didn't do a whole lot of army movement at least comparatively because the economy was so low at that same point in the game. or if you did, it was with low tech army in all-in fashion. 5 rax, 7/8 gate +1, roach ling max. it is the same shit as back then, but you're forced to do more, and faster. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On January 16 2018 17:42 LoneYoShi wrote: in LOTV, the time it takes for bio to be operationnal is mostly unchanged (barracks build time, TL build time, stim/CS research time, factory build time, starport build time, reactor build time, medivacs build time, eventually Ebay buildtime and +1 research time). It's true. With other races getting their options more early maybe supply depot is no longer necessary as a prerequisite for barracks? The supply depot prerequisite came through due to oppressive scv/marine allins, but that was in a time of 6 worker start and much smaller maps. Could also potentially move forward the armory prerequisite to +3/+3 instead of +2/+2. | ||
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