Hi everyone, since someone of you asked for it, i'm gonna share with you 3 aggressive legacy of the void builds for TvZ and TvP. The concept behind all the builds is simple, we add a second barracks for a fast stimpack to hit a powerful timing early-mid game. Basically these are optimized variations of this build.
TvZ - Double Medivac drop +1 timing
The attack will hit at 5.20~ with 2 medivacs and 16 marines with stimpack and +1 weapon upgrade.(tested on dusk towers)
Build Order
Standard reaper opener @100% Reaper, Reactor on Rax and begin marine production @400 Minerals Command Center Supply Depot Second Rax Second Gas @100% Second Rax, Tech Lab on 2nd rax, Factory and Eng Bay @100% Tech Lab, Stimpack and begin marine production @100% Eng Bay, +1 Weapon @100% Factory, Starport and Reactor on Factory @100% Starport, Double medivac
Strategy
Not much to say here, just drop and trade the best you can. The +1 attack will make it easy to trade efficiently vs any units the opponent has except banelings, try to avoid them.
TvP - Widow mine drop into Double Medivac drop timing
The widow mine drop will hit at 5.10~ with 1 medivacs and 2 widowmine. The followup drop will hit at 5.30~ with 2 medivacs and 16 marines with stimpack.(tested on dusk towers)
Build Order
Standard reaper opener @100% Reaper, Reactor on Rax and begin marine production @400 Minerals Command Center Supply Depot Second Rax @100 gas Factory Second Gas @100% Second Rax, Tech Lab @100% Tech Lab, Stimpack and begin marine production @100% Factory, Starport and Reactor on Factory @100% Reactor, 2 widow mines @100% Starport, Medivac @100% Medivac, Switch Starport with Factory, Double Medivac
Strategy
In my opinion, it's best to drop widow mines onto one base to force his units out of position, then followup drop in the other base. i.e. WM drop in the natural->force units out of position->drop in the main
TvP - Widow mine drop into Double liberator timing push
The widow mine drop will hit at 5.10~ with 1 medivacs and 2 widowmine. The followup push will hit at 5.45~ with 1 medivac 2 liberators and 14~16~ marines with stimpack.(tested on dusk towers)
Build Order
Standard reaper opener @100% Reaper, Reactor on Rax and begin marine production @400 Minerals Command Center Supply Depot Second Rax Second Gas @100 gas Factory @100% Second Rax, Tech Lab @100% Tech Lab, Stimpack and begin marine production @100% Factory, Starport and Reactor on Factory @100% Reactor, 2 widow mines, Third Gas @100% Starport, Medivac @100% Medivac, Switch Starport with Factory, Double Liberator @50% Liberators, Start to march across the map with the marines you have
Strategy
You can either widow mine drop and then do a frontal push OR siege the main and natural mineral lines with liberators and attack the third with marines + medivac. It's important to not lose the medivac, or your marines won't have any healing in your folloup attack, so try to scout for phoenix play, and don't commit with the widowmine drop, but instead push the front.
General tips
All the builds listed are quite vulnerable to counter attacks, It's important to know if they're taking a third base or not.
Against protoss, if they're going 2 base all in, you can widow mine drop and defend with the followup.
The builds are tight, so against protoss oracle play, try to defend with marines and avoid making ebay + turrets until you're about move out.
Transition
Against Protoss
@400 minerals Command Center +2 refineries at natural +2 eng bays start double upgrades +3 barracks Reactor or Tech lab on factory for widow mines/tanks After fully saturating the third base, add +3 more additional Barracks and another Starport ( Tech Lab ) + fusion core and start liberator range upgrade. Upon taking the 4th base you can add another Starport.
Against Zerg
@400 minerals Command Center +2 refineries at natural Start Combat shield and + 1 armor (later add 1 eng bay + armory for double upgrades) +3 barracks Reactor or Tech lab on factory for widow mines/tanks After fully saturating the third base, add +3 more additional Barracks and build another Factory/Starport for more tanks/thors or liberators. Upon taking the 4th base you can add another Factory/Starport.
Feel free to ask any question, optimizations/tips are welcome!
The last build with the double liberator is the one Maru used in proleague against Blaze.
I just grabbed Maru's build, changed the gas timings and got double medivac instead of double liberator, given i saw polt doing a similar build in the past. Precisely against Puck in the WCS NA Qualifiers.
Thanks for these! I tried the TvP mine drop and it worked. I also tried the mine drop against a zerg who went early mutas into 3rd base with one mine at the main and one at the natural while my marines attack the third, worked as well
in tvz, if you go cc first into rax gas rax gas you can have exact same units (like 18 marines, 2 medivacs) at 5:40 but with +1/+1 and stim and combat shield.
On February 21 2016 16:43 QzYSc2 wrote: in tvz, if you go cc first into rax gas rax gas you can have exact same units (like 18 marines, 2 medivacs) at 5:40 but with +1/+1 and stim and combat shield.
Can you post a replay? btw 5.30 is when you reach opponent's base not when medivacs are out
http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6489463 this was my latest tvz against rank 80 gm. If i didnt go full potato defending his speedlings and forget the depot after the engineering bay, i probably could've started my 3rd and armory (and thus +2/+2) a bit faster. I can post more replays if you want, like against early roach ravager pressure.
On February 21 2016 23:02 QzYSc2 wrote: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6489463 this was my latest tvz against rank 80 gm. If i didnt go full potato defending his speedlings and forget the depot after the engineering bay, i probably could've started my 3rd and armory (and thus +2/+2) a bit faster. I can post more replays if you want, like against early roach ravager pressure.
Sweet, thanks! It doesn't include a reaper for scouting and hits a little bit later but also include CS and +1+1, i like it. I'm gonna play and experiment variations of it tonight :p
Edit: Tried to recreate the build with rax expand instead of CC 1st and it works as well, hit at 5.40-5.45 with 2 medivacs 16marines with stim, CS and +1+1. The build is very good, the only thing is no reaper since you have to go techlab first
Also 5.30 is the timing when zerg usually saturates his third base, in fact if you look at your replay, with a 5.30 timing you would've done a lot more damage since he only had a few lings. 15-20 seconds later he had 10 roaches..
And with the reaper i like to scout for the overlord positioning so i can avoid them and sneak the drop in, less chances to be scouted. But yeah, good stuff
Edit 2: I realized that my +1 build uses a late second gas, tried to get it right away and got a faster timing, 5.20 instead of 5.30. Updated the BO
On February 21 2016 23:02 QzYSc2 wrote: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6489463 this was my latest tvz against rank 80 gm. If i didnt go full potato defending his speedlings and forget the depot after the engineering bay, i probably could've started my 3rd and armory (and thus +2/+2) a bit faster. I can post more replays if you want, like against early roach ravager pressure.
could you give "cleaner" replay of the build. The build is really sharp macro wise and would like to practice it optimally, Thanks !
Hey guys I managed to get the actual drop down to 5:17 on dusk using this template:
Reaper fe marine 2:08 second barracks (don't produce units until after reactor on factory) 2:10 second refinery 2:50 factory 3:00 ebay (can use scv building second rax) 3:38 reactor on factory
On February 23 2016 22:54 blaze13 wrote: Hey guys I managed to get the actual drop down to 5:17 on dusk using this template:
Reaper fe marine 2:08 second barracks (don't produce units until after reactor on factory) 2:10 second refinery 2:50 factory 3:00 ebay (can use scv building second rax) 3:38 reactor on factory
I've already updated the guide with a faster second gas which result in 5.20 instead of 5.30. The only difference in our builds is that you don't get the reactor right after the reaper.
On February 23 2016 22:54 blaze13 wrote: Hey guys I managed to get the actual drop down to 5:17 on dusk using this template:
Reaper fe marine 2:08 second barracks (don't produce units until after reactor on factory) 2:10 second refinery 2:50 factory 3:00 ebay (can use scv building second rax) 3:38 reactor on factory
I've already updated the guide with a faster second gas which result in 5.20 instead of 5.30. The only difference in our builds is that you don't get the reactor right after the reaper.
Umm yea, that's why I posted this in your thread because I was using your build. In the replay I downloaded your medivacs didn't leave your base until 5:20 and someone was asking for a cleaner replay so I posted one. I also posted the times I got everything so they could benchmark more easily.
On February 23 2016 22:54 blaze13 wrote: Hey guys I managed to get the actual drop down to 5:17 on dusk using this template:
Reaper fe marine 2:08 second barracks (don't produce units until after reactor on factory) 2:10 second refinery 2:50 factory 3:00 ebay (can use scv building second rax) 3:38 reactor on factory
I've already updated the guide with a faster second gas which result in 5.20 instead of 5.30. The only difference in our builds is that you don't get the reactor right after the reaper.
Umm yea, that's why I posted this in your thread because I was using your build. In the replay I downloaded your medivacs didn't leave your base until 5:20 and someone was asking for a cleaner replay so I posted one. I also posted the times I got everything so they could benchmark more easily.
I thought you were posting an optimized version of the build and they were asking for a cleaner replay of the CC first build, but anyways you're right, my replay shows sloppy play since it's a real game.
Just an idle question here, not really a criticism per se -
How do these builds line up to 1.5 base roach ravager timings from zerg? (These attacks tend to hit around 4:40 to 5:00-ish.) Seems to me like if you find 3 ravagers nuking your wall when all your units are in a medivac halfway across the map, you might find yourself having a bad time.
That being said, if this does happen its entirely possible that you might just win the resulting base trade if you commit hard enough, seeing as the zerg is just as poorly positioned to defend your drop as you were to defend his attack. Early ravager timings do not have lair tech, so maybe a few widow mines at home tip the scales in your favor? I've done this many times from the zerg point of view but almost never from the terran side - I'm interested to know how this feels the other way around.
On February 27 2016 00:12 wabbajack_sc2 wrote: Just an idle question here, not really a criticism per se -
How do these builds line up to 1.5 base roach ravager timings from zerg? (These attacks tend to hit around 4:40 to 5:00-ish.) Seems to me like if you find 3 ravagers nuking your wall when all your units are in a medivac halfway across the map, you might find yourself having a bad time.
That being said, if this does happen its entirely possible that you might just win the resulting base trade if you commit hard enough, seeing as the zerg is just as poorly positioned to defend your drop as you were to defend his attack. Early ravager timings do not have lair tech, so maybe a few widow mines at home tip the scales in your favor? I've done this many times from the zerg point of view but almost never from the terran side - I'm interested to know how this feels the other way around.
Like i said, it's important to know if they're taking a third base or not, i think 3.30 is around the time a zerg player would take his third. Any later means either lair/roach aggression/ling bane aggression.
With your reaper try to scout how much gas did they mine from the first assimilator and if they're still mining gas, it's easy then to understand if it's a baneling bust or a roach ravager all from unit composition, even if you don't scout the tech structure.
For RR aggression you shouldn't have any problem and should have enough units with the second rax, maybe add a bunker to be super safe.
Baneling bust may require you to pull scvs/reinforce your wall.
I think the posted double medivac build is very similar to one of my go-to TvZ builds but much, much better. I'm going to use it out tonight. What do you generally transition with behind the build? I assume you tech the fact and make tanks but do you CC before that? Do you set up more raxes before your third CC?
On February 27 2016 04:57 Tenks wrote: I think the posted double medivac build is very similar to one of my go-to TvZ builds but much, much better. I'm going to use it out tonight. What do you generally transition with behind the build? I assume you tech the fact and make tanks but do you CC before that? Do you set up more raxes before your third CC?
I usually make the 3rd CC first (around 4.45-5.00), then make another reactor with the starport and build the third rax on its previous one, since you don't instantly need 2 more medivacs. At that point you have a naked factory and you can chose to either go tanks or widowmines based on opponent's unit composition (tanks vs roach ravager and mines vs ling bane).
You can chose what you want, i don't like tanks too much, so i usually go pure bio vs roach ravager, never really had any problem with it..
On February 21 2016 23:02 QzYSc2 wrote: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6489463 this was my latest tvz against rank 80 gm. If i didnt go full potato defending his speedlings and forget the depot after the engineering bay, i probably could've started my 3rd and armory (and thus +2/+2) a bit faster. I can post more replays if you want, like against early roach ravager pressure.
Thanks for posting this, I quite like this build.
I would love it if you would post replays where you defend zerg aggression like early ravagers or early baneling bust. I'm guessing if they go for a quick baneling bust you need to make extra buildings to reinforce your wall? I would love to hear any tips you have about situations where you adjust your build.
edit: another question, do you do this build on all maps or only with in-base natural? I'm sure it is much safer with in base natural but I am not sure if it can work on other maps too
On February 21 2016 23:02 QzYSc2 wrote: http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/6489463 this was my latest tvz against rank 80 gm. If i didnt go full potato defending his speedlings and forget the depot after the engineering bay, i probably could've started my 3rd and armory (and thus +2/+2) a bit faster. I can post more replays if you want, like against early roach ravager pressure.
Thanks for posting this, I quite like this build.
I would love it if you would post replays where you defend zerg aggression like early ravagers or early baneling bust. I'm guessing if they go for a quick baneling bust you need to make extra buildings to reinforce your wall? I would love to hear any tips you have about situations where you adjust your build.
edit: another question, do you do this build on all maps or only with in-base natural? I'm sure it is much safer with in base natural but I am not sure if it can work on other maps too
I'm not sure what to do vs baneling busts, i only have 1 replay where i played vs a baneling bust using an old version of this build. Nobody seems to try to baneling bust me lol. and it was at an early stage of experimenting with this build where i went 2 rax, then 2 gas after cc first and a bunker.
what i can tell you, is that you will straight up die against a 1 base zerg 13 gas/12 pool baneling bust if you don't know it's coming. Fortunately though, almost nobody does that retarded shit (except that one random guy on ladder lol), but if you want to be safe against that you can send an 19 scv scout to check if he expanded.
some of my thought process against roach ravager: You need good control to pull this off. I've had games where i just died if didnt micro properly.
instantly start marauder production from your techlab rax the moment you see roaches attacking your wall.
You can either try to defend your wall pulling scvs to buffer, or just fall back to your scvs, make a bunker near your production while your wall buys time and wait for more units. it depends on how much he committed to the pressure and how he positions himself.
If his ravagers are slightly isolated and out of position, try to scv surround his ravagers, it should be an easy hold if you manage that.
roaches have less range than marines and marauders and you should kite them as much as possible.
on maps with a low ground natural it might be wiser to fly back to your main, retreat with your scvs, and defend the ramp/choke and wait for a tank + medivac. if you keep your scv alive you shouldn't be behind if not ahead. once again, depending on the situation.
a bunker should make this infinite times easier to defend, you can easily cut 2 marines and make a bunker instead. i didnt because i was testing how greedy i could be without dying.
EPT
