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On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote:
I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
I'd welcome you to briefly describe a good macro way to play vs Protoss where I can be at least even in the early and mid game and safe from Warp Prism adept bs where adepts massacre workers while ignoring the shit attacking and then shade to another base or cancel shade if they don't like what they see.
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Updating OP with 2 more games from an automated tourney. Both 1/1/1s.
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On January 11 2016 16:47 Jakamakala wrote:
Updating OP with 2 more games from an automated tourney. Both 1/1/1s.
First of all, thank you for constructively adding to the strategic depth available for perusal on this site.
Second of all, may I ask your opinion of a 3 Barracks bio opening from a Reaper expansion to get a fast Stimpack and Combat Shields, proceeding immediately into an Engineering Bay at 4:00 to get Turrets, on Dusk/Orbital?
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On January 11 2016 16:50 EatingBomber wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 16:47 Jakamakala wrote:
Updating OP with 2 more games from an automated tourney. Both 1/1/1s. First of all, thank you for constructively adding to the strategic depth available for perusal on this site. Second of all, may I ask your opinion of a 3 Barracks bio opening from a Reaper expansion to get a fast Stimpack and Combat Shields, proceeding immediately into an Engineering Bay at 4:00 to get Turrets, on Dusk/Orbital?
I haven't seen many players go three barracks, and I don't do it myself.
The fundamental purpose of 3 rax in HoTS was to do damage early on or have a strong core army that can fight head on against P core army if you are rushed. In the first scenario you generally moved out with 8 marines and 1 marauder at 6:25 to force a PO, and then you move in at 7:45 ish with a stim timing before the second PO is ready to eek out damage to probes, gateway units, and possibly scout/damage their tech.
In Legacy, there is absolutely no way for you to do upfront damage to Protoss so long as they have 2 pylons at the front of their base. It's ridiculous. Pylons do 50% more dps and cost 25% the energy, so 2 POs (which they shouldn't cast until you committed) can wreck your ground bio and it doesn't carry a heavy opportunity cost. On top of this adepts are very very effective against barracks units, melting marines like butter and tanking marauders like a brick wall.
For these reasons I suggest you either open 1/1/1 for some basic marine production, as well as cyclones that can afford you some map control and can fight gateway units well with some micro, and Liberators that can hold the line against countless gateway units and harass probe lines from range.
Some players will compromise and do a build where they get 2 barracks but still get the factory for the cyclone, and will get the starport later. This is a more defensive macro build that allows more core "dps" units at the cost of any harass or pressure potential (since 3 rax won't work and there's no libs or banshees).
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what about 1/1/1 into 4 hellions drop into whatever you like ?
+ Show Spoiler +I use same opening as you, I mean 16 16 reactor but with only 1 gas untill starport is started
- 13 depot
- 16 barracks
- 16 gas
- @100% barracks, reactor > 4 marines
- CC depot
- @100 gas, factory then bunker (finish wall)
- @100% factory, starport and switch factory on reactor for 4 hellions and 2 mines)
- 2nd gas while starport is being built)
very efficient for scouting AND raping mineral line
my favorite transition is iEchoic style with 2nd starport > cloakshees raven hardcore aggresion but you can also go back to the "standard" 3rax bio tank medivac macro style)
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Ok after testing this out some more I do not think 1-1-1 is a good way to play versus Protoss. It works great under some circumstances but is really weak under others.
I think it is much better to wait with the attack until Protoss is claiming his third. That way you can make your main and your natural more safe against counter attacks and is not severely economically behind since you expand behind the attack.
I typically attack with mass mines supported by tanks and vikings but I imagine lots of unit compositions can work. I think it is the timing itself that is important, you need to secure your bases against counter attacks and you need to start attacking non stop when Protoss claims his third so that he can never mass up on high gas units.
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Cool thank you, I appreciate this contribution. I like the 1-1-1 opener on maps with an exposed natural but I think I will keep persisting with macro oriented reap - cc - cyc - lib - cc - standard build orders for all the rest. The proxy reaper is cool but I personally want to keep developing my even footing mid-late games with toss despite the struggle.
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On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote:
I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
I'd challenge that by citing Nios.kr and filtering by Korean Grandmaster league. Do the investigating for yourself, but protoss is absolutely monopolizing the top 50 players to an absurd degree. Dig a little further and take a look at the top 2 or 3 terran's matchup specific statistics and the very best Terran's are sporting a 55-60% winrate vs toss compared to the top 10-20 toss's at the moment who are all 70-75% pvt.
I'm not calling your statistics invalid just saying the tens of thousands of ladder matches at the highest level are more meaningful than a very isolated set of tournament statistics.
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On January 11 2016 22:13 Epitoi wrote:what about 1/1/1 into 4 hellions drop into whatever you like ? + Show Spoiler +I use same opening as you, I mean 16 16 reactor but with only 1 gas untill starport is started
- 13 depot
- 16 barracks
- 16 gas
- @100% barracks, reactor > 4 marines
- CC depot
- @100 gas, factory then bunker (finish wall)
- @100% factory, starport and switch factory on reactor for 4 hellions and 2 mines)
- 2nd gas while starport is being built)
very efficient for scouting AND raping mineral line
my favorite transition is iEchoic style with 2nd starport > cloakshees raven hardcore aggresion but you can also go back to the "standard" 3rax bio tank medivac macro style)
What you are describing is a FE build into a drop, which is a completely different approach than what I took here in this guide. I haven't experimented with all the reaper FE builds, but I generally didn't like them because Protoss could just come in with a Warp Prism and warp in fuck all numbers of adepts and own you. It could be worse if you invest into 4 hellions that may be shut down by 2 pylons but who knows? When I opened reaper FE 1/1/1 I personally just pumped out marines, a cyclone, and a Liberator to defend/harass/chase Warp Prisms before pumping out more barracks and the third CC.
I'm completely open to certain aspects of my style being used in conjunction with different builds and styles. i.e. I like opening proxy reaper into 3 base play sometimes (as the one replay in the pack notes).
On January 12 2016 03:27 MockHamill wrote:
Ok after testing this out some more I do not think 1-1-1 is a good way to play versus Protoss. It works great under some circumstances but is really weak under others.
I think it is much better to wait with the attack until Protoss is claiming his third. That way you can make your main and your natural more safe against counter attacks and is not severely economically behind since you expand behind the attack.
I typically attack with mass mines supported by tanks and vikings but I imagine lots of unit compositions can work. I think it is the timing itself that is important, you need to secure your bases against counter attacks and you need to start attacking non stop when Protoss claims his third so that he can never mass up on high gas units.
I'm not even sure what you're talking about. 1/1/1 is a ONE BASE BUILD. What player takes a third base before you've even started your natural? On a map like Ulrena you have 8 marines and a tank and you move out towards their nat. Conveniently you also move out past the time that a proxy oracle hits so unless Protoss hits it late or is waiting for you to move out (aka they're being smart) you will probably see the oracle revealed. The attack hits a gate gas Nexus core build Protoss before they even get any meaningful tech out and are banking on relying on minimal units and Pylon Overcharge to hold.
In short, I think you have the attack completely wrong in your explanation here. There's no "natural" on your part until very late into the attack.
On January 12 2016 04:47 mAnarch wrote:
Cool thank you, I appreciate this contribution. I like the 1-1-1 opener on maps with an exposed natural but I think I will keep persisting with macro oriented reap - cc - cyc - lib - cc - standard build orders for all the rest. The proxy reaper is cool but I personally want to keep developing my even footing mid-late games with toss despite the struggle.
The build you are describing is what most players, myself included, do when we aren't shaking the game up with proxies or cheeses. Cyclone and Libs are great ways to go because it chases down Warp Prisms and are good vs early P ground units, but unfortunately leave you with little core army and generally a late third. It's these reasons that made me come up with a few different ways to beat P (I have higher win rates with the styles described in the guide). It's mentally jarring, but I have confidence in my micro and control so I do my own styles frequently instead of the macro styles.
I just feel every time I do the macro style some jackass Protoss either does the 4:50 8 gate adept bullshit and wrecks SCVs and takes a safe third behind Pylons of all god damn things or they go 4:10 third Nexus into a shitload of adepts and disruptors and maybe 40% of those games I'll get into the late game safely where I can fight Protoss on good ground with Liberator Bio Mine.
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On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote:
I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss...
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
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So I've been trying to practice what I preach, and if you're going for macro games, it's totally okay to do so off of a proxy reaper opening. I've done some pressure while taking my third behind it and you're relatively safe due to the 5 rax infrastructure. Even got my third before him (a rarity) due to the heavy aggression. I then covered my retreat and played the game out.
I feel sometimes you might be behind in the economic game but if you can drag it out to the Bio Lib high supply stage of the game, it really comes down to taking a good fight so long you can maintain an economy and deter harassment.
Goes without saying that a new replay was added.
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On January 12 2016 07:04 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote:
I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss... I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread. If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss. Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not! It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Aligulac isn't based on ladder there chief.
http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
http://aligulac.com/results/events/51442-GSL-2016/ <-- GSL Stats.
Either way, the balance whine was unnecessary and against the forum rules. I watched Maru open up with 1-1-1 into an expand and pressure multiple times, so this is definitely viable style. And maybe that is why Terrans are keeping up with their winrates?
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France12904 Posts
Terran is Below 50% in both MU and non pro terrans are even more shat on so just let us do what we can in our threads maybe?
I'll definitely take a look on your builds, I experiment with some agressive builds as well abusing the fast expand of protosses.
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I've not played since WoL and very bad at the moment (low diamond) but I have >~65% winrate TvP mostly off of 1 base marine tank liberator pushes based on the type I was comfortable with back in the day. That is total since I started playing again and I lost a lot of TvP at the start to learning all the standard bullshit. I attempt to play straight up macro on Dusk Towers only and banned maps accordingly. Anyways, only commenting to say that I find it basically mandatory to build an ebay as you push out and find that often times turrets at both main and push are vitally important. I know you mentioned it but I definitely build offensive bunkers and turrets with the push. DTs have only ever given me problem when I missed a proxy pylon and they hit my main, but usually manageable with producing units if you already have turret. I always save a scan at push and get a turret up asap for either stargate or twilight techs which are very common. I think it goes without saying that if they 1-base you, you just defend (easily) and build in base cc. I have finished every one of these games by pushing as soon as they expand with same composition.
Thanks for writing this up. As soon as possible I will watch your replays because I am sure your build is more refined than mine.
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On January 14 2016 16:59 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2016 07:04 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:On January 11 2016 11:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 09 2016 19:20 Jakamakala wrote:
I truly and honestly do not believe there is a solid way for Terran to play macro into the mid game while staying even aggressively AND economically with a Protoss player of equal skill.
Why so much balance whine? Sure expansion and new units mean the meta changes. But guess what? Terran is winning over 50% versus Protoss... I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread. If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss. Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not! It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league. Aligulac isn't based on ladder there chief. http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/http://aligulac.com/results/events/51442-GSL-2016/ <-- GSL Stats. Either way, the balance whine was unnecessary and against the forum rules. I watched Maru open up with 1-1-1 into an expand and pressure multiple times, so this is definitely viable style. And maybe that is why Terrans are keeping up with their winrates?
If you're so offended, you should report my guide and have it taken down.
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Hey jak,
Thx for sharing this build, I give the 111 a try on a low master account and it was working pretty well.
I also tried a different version with a medivac first to harass, then a liberator and then the big push with 2 tanks 1 liberator and 1 medivac. The medvac is very usefull to harass first then quickly move your tank and heal your marines, what do you think of this version?
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On January 15 2016 02:10 BiiG-Fr wrote:
Hey jak,
Thx for sharing this build, I give the 111 a try on a low master account and it was working pretty well.
I also tried a different version with a medivac first to harass, then a liberator and then the big push with 2 tanks 1 liberator and 1 medivac. The medvac is very usefull to harass first then quickly move your tank and heal your marines, what do you think of this version?
Sometimes it can come down to what you scout. I like liberator because it allows you to defend and counter heavy aggression with its heavy fire and can chase WPs.
On the other hand lib is weak vs Stargate so if you happen to catch that with the reapers or your cyclone stops an oracle you might want to rethink harassing with a lib. Lib harass is very strong against robo first, which had seen a resurgence since HoTS where it was Twilight into Robo.
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Jak,
What changes if the adept nerf (2 shot to 3 shot) and pylon overcharge nerf go through? How do you anticipate changing your play style?
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If you're so offended, you should report my guide and have it taken down.
hes not gonna say shit due to the fact that All the Toss players wanna keep it this way ( and i dont really blame him since ya'know, Race pride and all that) , but its fine because Adepts are supposedly getting the Nerf bat soon, im just waiting for that patch before i go wild on Toss and show them how fun it is to lose to BS.
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On January 16 2016 01:17 gh0st wrote:
Jak,
What changes if the adept nerf (2 shot to 3 shot) and pylon overcharge nerf go through? How do you anticipate changing your play style?
If these nerfs go through it just means I can try to experiment with macro styles again. That said, if I do try going macro (reactor first FE or reaper FE) I'd have to be responsible about getting +1 armor or Protoss might go macro style with +1 attack to still 2 shot. It also means I could start dropping/pressuring again because Protoss can't spam PO anymore.
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EPT
