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What's the low down with Terrans going for the fast three base and going for a Hellbat/Tank/Ghost/Medivac kind of comp. At first I was not very intimidated even going for Roach/Bane/Ling/Hydra heavy on the lings but the Hellbats and tanks make very short work of ling/bane and the Ghosts make even shorter work of Hydras and the like, not like tanks don't smash Roach/Hydra anyways though.
Guess my question was I had no real clue what to be building. Ultralisks, Broodlords and Vipers all just get auto deleted by cloaked ghosts so I didn't want to pin my hopes on tier 3, I could have macro'd harder and faster of course but I don't know, felt more like my army just flat out could not engage him.
I also built about 20 Mutalisks thinking, "Well only the Ghosts can attack air" but I had no clue that Snipe was so effective in large numbers, we're talking like all 20 Mutalisks deleted in a second.
Obviously as well I want to complain a bit about Snipe, like I know Ghosts aren't cheap but wow, Snipe is good, VERY good.
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im theorycrafting a bit, because ive faced that build probably 2 or 3 times ever, but generally i would think of banes as one of the more efficient counters for ghosts? they're the unit terrans complain about when it comes to ghost usage, so that's usually a good indicator. they're not really bad against hellbats either unless the hellbat split is godly. yes he has tanks, but tanks don't simply nullify banelings at midgame supplies, you should at least be able to push him back while reinforcing. if you have any banes at all he can't be sniping hydras, he has to micro
when i lost to that build i was so confused by it that i was caught off guard by the push, and i think if you face it more than once you would start being more comfortable setting up things like flanking positions and counterattacks. any push with tanks is extremely positional, even two tanks can completely change a fight if you let him siege an abusive position. terran also sacrifices tech synergy and can't reinforce well by making that comp, so after holding you should be in a fantastic position and have many options
i think once you identify the build you should just stop making roaches and go heavy hydra bane with a few lings to draw tank shots. as long as you have enough units the ghosts and tanks won't hit hydras and the banes should at least clear out the meat of his army. if you don't trade well enough then save the hydras and regroup with hatching units. and obviously just look at the basics too, like how good your creep is, where you cut drones, etc. part of how aggressive 3CC mech builds work is that you get fooled by the CC into overdroning - you have to cut early and let him take a very short econ lead, then when you beat the attack you either make like 20 drones at once or just allin him, and either one should work. 3CC armory mass hellbat used to be similar, zergs wondered how to stay even in econ and stop the attack, but then we realized you just have to cut early to defend and then use the power of larva to take the lead with drones or a tech swap or whatever
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What was your drone count? Mutas aren't good in head on fights they are good at harassing, but not head on fights.
Hydra ling bane, or even swarm hosts ling bane would have crushed this army if you had the right drone count (so that you can remake all the ling bane you throw there). But things first, you must get to a high enough drone count if you want to go head to head vs a terran on quick 3 bases (was it 1-1-1 3rd base, or did he even skipped the starport for the third base?).
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On July 30 2018 10:41 Beelzebub1 wrote:
What's the low down with Terrans going for the fast three base and going for a Hellbat/Tank/Ghost/Medivac kind of comp. At first I was not very intimidated even going for Roach/Bane/Ling/Hydra heavy on the lings but the Hellbats and tanks make very short work of ling/bane and the Ghosts make even shorter work of Hydras and the like, not like tanks don't smash Roach/Hydra anyways though.
Guess my question was I had no real clue what to be building. Ultralisks, Broodlords and Vipers all just get auto deleted by cloaked ghosts so I didn't want to pin my hopes on tier 3, I could have macro'd harder and faster of course but I don't know, felt more like my army just flat out could not engage him.
I also built about 20 Mutalisks thinking, "Well only the Ghosts can attack air" but I had no clue that Snipe was so effective in large numbers, we're talking like all 20 Mutalisks deleted in a second.
Obviously as well I want to complain a bit about Snipe, like I know Ghosts aren't cheap but wow, Snipe is good, VERY good.
Unless you throw your army into fortified positions, mass roach/ravager or roach/hydra shouldn't lose to this.
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Canada130 Posts
How do you beat the ZvZ rush that brings all it's drones and builds a few spines in your base?
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On September 11 2018 08:03 EvanC wrote:
How do you beat the ZvZ rush that brings all it's drones and builds a few spines in your base?
Also curious about this. If anyone has some replays, would be helpful.
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On September 11 2018 08:03 EvanC wrote:
How do you beat the ZvZ rush that brings all it's drones and builds a few spines in your base?
First of all, I allways drone scout at 14 pop and I start with 17 pool/17 hatch. If I see this kind of rush, I cancel nat and only make lings, queen and spine. I send 4 drones to attack each enemy spine while it is been building.
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On September 12 2018 21:01 Destruktor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2018 08:03 EvanC wrote:
How do you beat the ZvZ rush that brings all it's drones and builds a few spines in your base? First of all, I allways drone scout at 14 pop and I start with 17 pool/17 hatch. If I see this kind of rush, I cancel nat and only make lings, queen and spine. I send 4 drones to attack each enemy spine while it is been building.
Drone scout in ZvZ if you pool first is overdoing it.
This can be held with hatch first and no drone scout, because they can't waste time going around your overlords so you will see the drones rushing across the map.
Gonna quote the response from reddit allthingszerg as I don't face this often (similar to what serral did vs scarlett) :
"When you scout it you should have 19 supply. Don't make the 20th drone or the overlord that you would normally make, just bank larvae. Pull off gas, and send a drone down to hide in your natural.
When your pool finishes make 8 lings (all your larvae), a queen (from natural), and a spine low ground in your natural using the drone you hid.
If they dive your main mineral line do the drone flower trick thing where you stack drones up in the minerals. If you take a straight up fight before your lings are out you will die.
When lings pop you want to fight. If they run from you target the spines, otherwise just fight their army. The spines will always finish if they do this properly but they will have to sacrifice units to buy time. When the spines are about to finish evacuate everything to your natural. At this point they should mostly just have the spines, and not many units. All you have to do is prevent the spines from walking down the ramp and rooting in your natural. Body block the ramp and use your spine and queen to hold strong if they dive down with their remaining lings and drones. Surround their spines to try to prevent them from rooting."
I think it's probably less micro intensive without the whole spine at natural + transfer, if you just make spines in your main instead. But you gotta gain time until your lings pop by threatening your opponent's building spines so they can't just kill your own spines.
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I got killed by a cannon rush into proxy stargate tempest with sb/cannons etc. I was really flustered this game so I didn't really have an idea of what I was doing.... I feel like this game was winnable but I just didn't choose the right tech path or something. Anyone have any idea how to properly deal with this and stop the tempests from snowballing?
https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/8422051
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Hi what to do against fast wall strategy that allows protoss to secure his natural and build 2 stargates in the beggining of the game ? I go muta but can't kill all probes :S if I kill most probes in his main then he just masses probes in his natural and goes phoenix. ? then carrier and its over. I dont understand how their 1 base economy maintain carriers ?
Protoss players usually make 2 full probe nexus 2 3 stalker or phoenix by the time I have 6 muta (and I go lair with first the 100 gas )
Btw I tried switching to hydra after muta attack but it seems carriers build interceptors too fast I face 3 4 carriers when I try to attack the protoss wall
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On September 30 2018 08:23 Hydralich wrote:
Hi what to do against fast wall strategy that allows protoss to secure his natural and build 2 stargates in the beggining of the game ? I go muta but can't kill all probes :S if I kill most probes in his main then he just masses probes in his natural and goes phoenix. ? then carrier and its over. I dont understand how their 1 base economy maintain carriers ?
Protoss players usually make 2 full probe nexus 2 3 stalker or phoenix by the time I have 6 muta (and I go lair with first the 100 gas )
Btw I tried switching to hydra after muta attack but it seems carriers build interceptors too fast I face 3 4 carriers when I try to attack the protoss wall
from the sounds of your post you are playing at a very very low level. you never build muta against phoenix. i don't know why you think you want muta? to defend phoenix you make drones, queens, spore crawlers, and 3 bases. i think you need to learn some more basics about the game, maybe click some of the guides on this page and learn about how standard builds work!
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Hey thanks for the answer  I am tier 1 gold player (trying to reach diamond  rank 1 2 or 3 at ladder )
My intention was not defending (I see phoenx and stalkers after attacking his probes) and letting him to go mid game. I just wanted to finish his economy until I make an army big enogh to break the natural base wall (6 mutas kill 2 even 3 phoenix easily if you snipe 1 at a time you lose like only 1 muta)
Nowadays gold protoss players do this tactic natural wall probe 2 base then 2 stargate carrier rush (and even mothership after 3 4 carrier) When they make mothership it is easy to kite and kill my hydra + corruptor army
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If you want to go kill him, go ling bling hydra before he can get his splash damage out, or roach ravager, or even just roaches. Mutas are terrible against anything that can damage it back in a straight fight. But you shouldn't be able to have mutas by the time 3 pheonix is out anyways.
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You can try the baneling drops in mineral lines, ideally queued (fire&forget) and simultaneous in both opponent's main and nat (while poking at wall to distract and keeping on droning as fuck in the background)
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Hey thanks for your ideas I will try them but I think the real problem might be the cheap cost of carriers. They usually make 2 3 canons to expansion and it's wall (thats why I am able to have mutas I guess btw mutas are great against stalkers and void rays just use the sniping tactic ) so the expansion is not defenseless. Even if I kill all probes in the main they go phoenix then carrier. In 1 match I used 6 muta attack then I went nydus canal and destroyed protoss main base with hydras but there was just too many carriers. He kept kiting and running to natural (where he had a sheild battery) then all hydras gg
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I always lose vs Carriers, specially when Toss turtles behind his canons and makes a ball of chargelots, inmortal, high templar and Carriers. Toss only has to make A-click and I don't have any idea of what unit composition can beat it. Roach/hydra/corruptor falls against storms and all his army. I like to play macro and arrive until late game but I see if my opponent gets carriers it's a free win for him. Any idea?
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On October 15 2018 04:57 Destruktor wrote:
I always lose vs Carriers, specially when Toss turtles behind his canons and makes a ball of chargelots, inmortal, high templar and Carriers. Toss only has to make A-click and I don't have any idea of what unit composition can beat it. Roach/hydra/corruptor falls against storms and all his army. I like to play macro and arrive until late game but I see if my opponent gets carriers it's a free win for him. Any idea?
play your standard midgame. roach hydra is fine but most people consider hydra ling bane more powerful. scout him, and if you see a fleet beacon building start being aggressive and doing damage before he has more than 2-4 carriers.
if he has a fourth base you need to have stronger army movement than him, split up your forces (roach runbys, ling runbys, split off a second army, overlord drops, etc. are all options) and force him to keep building midgame units to defend his bases instead of massing carriers.
if he has no fourth base or you've already done damage then you can take more bases with mass spine crawlers, tech spire, and look to choke his carrier production with mass corruptors. corruptors work as long as you have the economy to keep resetting his carriers, since carriers take very very long to build. if toss has templar, archons or void rays you will need vipers and mass spore crawlers to trade in the lategame.
if you feel you're ahead and he has very few ground units with only 2-4 carriers, don't let the carriers intimidate you, because you can usually run him over with hydra bane. if you're ahead in army then with a few banelings to push away zealots and templar you can still fight carriers. but it's a fine line. you need experience to know when to engage.
in some cases you can even make a few brood lords against carriers just because broodlings can still be effective against templar under carriers, but obviously you have to be careful because if you lose the fight generally you lose your expensive broods and toss will go tempest so it's risky. but if you win a fight the broods can close out games.
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On October 15 2018 07:55 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2018 04:57 Destruktor wrote:
I always lose vs Carriers, specially when Toss turtles behind his canons and makes a ball of chargelots, inmortal, high templar and Carriers. Toss only has to make A-click and I don't have any idea of what unit composition can beat it. Roach/hydra/corruptor falls against storms and all his army. I like to play macro and arrive until late game but I see if my opponent gets carriers it's a free win for him. Any idea? play your standard midgame. roach hydra is fine but most people consider hydra ling bane more powerful. scout him, and if you see a fleet beacon building start being aggressive and doing damage before he has more than 2-4 carriers. if he has a fourth base you need to have stronger army movement than him, split up your forces (roach runbys, ling runbys, split off a second army, overlord drops, etc. are all options) and force him to keep building midgame units to defend his bases instead of massing carriers. if he has no fourth base or you've already done damage then you can take more bases with mass spine crawlers, tech spire, and look to choke his carrier production with mass corruptors. corruptors work as long as you have the economy to keep resetting his carriers, since carriers take very very long to build. if toss has templar, archons or void rays you will need vipers and mass spore crawlers to trade in the lategame. if you feel you're ahead and he has very few ground units with only 2-4 carriers, don't let the carriers intimidate you, because you can usually run him over with hydra bane. if you're ahead in army then with a few banelings to push away zealots and templar you can still fight carriers. but it's a fine line. you need experience to know when to engage. in some cases you can even make a few brood lords against carriers just because broodlings can still be effective against templar under carriers, but obviously you have to be careful because if you lose the fight generally you lose your expensive broods and toss will go tempest so it's risky. but if you win a fight the broods can close out games.
Thanks for the answer, I'll try it!
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EPT
