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Psychotikah
Canada101 Posts
I had a pretty basic question about overload paths at the beginning of the game for the ZvT matchup. I am not exactly sure where to send my first and secondoverlord and what to look for. I am always scared of getting it killed by Marines. Thanks for your help. | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
-send straight to his main base ramp to quickly scout his opener -send toward his base but far enough that marines won't find it -send to proxy rax locations you want to confirm that he's expanding and not doing anything stupid on 1 base like superfast hellions or mass marine. then if he's doing anything weird just make queen ling spine your second overlord usually flies in later to scout for things like hellbats or banshees as well as checking for third CC timing also, not sure if you already know this, but when your ovie flies over "high ground" terrain blockers it becomes invisible to ground units, which normally makes you safe to watch terran's natural until he has starport units. these blind spots are present at the natural base on like 95% of maps | ||
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Psychotikah
Canada101 Posts
On October 20 2018 21:29 brickrd wrote: 3 options for your first overlord: -send straight to his main base ramp to quickly scout his opener -send toward his base but far enough that marines won't find it -send to proxy rax locations you want to confirm that he's expanding and not doing anything stupid on 1 base like superfast hellions or mass marine. then if he's doing anything weird just make queen ling spine your second overlord usually flies in later to scout for things like hellbats or banshees as well as checking for third CC timing also, not sure if you already know this, but when your ovie flies over "high ground" terrain blockers it becomes invisible to ground units, which normally makes you safe to watch terran's natural until he has starport units. these blind spots are present at the natural base on like 95% of maps Aren't there two maps in this season's pool where there are no high grounds to hide overlords? Dreamcatcher is one ( God I hate sending ovies on that map) and maybe I am hallucinating but isn't there an other one? If I choose to scout the ramp and lose the ovy to a marine first, am I in deep trouble? Thanks | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
It also helps that I open 16 or 17 pool with 6 lings every game, which allows to cover all proxy spots with 2 ovies and to kill off any marines that try to kill ovies. (and also all the usual benefits of pool first, like killing SCV or xancelling CC unscouted) l. On Dreamcatcher, I send 1st straight to the ramp/natural to confirmm CC timing and then back it off to the ridge with thr destructible rocks (or to the side of their nat if there's no CC) | ||
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BradTheBaneling
44 Posts
I haven't played since early HotS so the new worker math isn't something I'm familiar with. When the Zerg is at 14/14 supply with an overlord and drone on the way is there a reason why Zergs no longer do the extractor trick to start their "15th supply drone" early? Sorry if this is a banal question, I just remember seeing Zergs do that frequently in some capacity in WoL and HotS. | ||
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bobo38
France220 Posts
You start: 12 Drone <= right as game starts 13 Overlord <= @100 mineral 13 Drone <= @50 mineral 14 Drone x2 <= at ovi pop | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
When we started with 6 workers having 8 or 9 drones mining was quite of a difference, so getting to 9 drones and only then starting an ovie was worth it as you could still spend the larva with the extractor trick even though seeming you were supply blocked. The difference between 13 and 14 drones isn't that big, so its ok starting an ovie on 13 and then you can spend the larva as you are 13/14, so the larva maintains its growths without the extractor trick. It turned out that 13 ovie is as good if not better then the 14 ovie, so no extractor trick is in need in legacy. Some still do it, and if you go for a 14 ovie rather then a 13 ovie then do it. But if you go for a 13 ovie its not even worth it. | ||
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BradTheBaneling
44 Posts
Makes sense! Thanks for the explantation. | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
On October 20 2018 20:59 Psychotikah wrote: Hi everyone I had a pretty basic question about overload paths at the beginning of the game for the ZvT matchup. I am not exactly sure where to send my first and secondoverlord and what to look for. I am always scared of getting it killed by Marines. Thanks for your help. Vs T or P: 1 ovi to his nat to confirm expand and then to his third. 2 ovi near to his main to later make a sacrifice over. vs Z: 1 ovi to his nat to confirm expand and then to back near to his ramp to see if he is attacking you. 2 ovi to his 3rd base | ||
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Railgan
Switzerland1509 Posts
On October 25 2018 05:42 bulya wrote: The extractor trick is less for the earlier drone and more to maintain larva production. You don't want 3 idle larva at your hatchary as it means that you will have less larva in total to work with over time. When we started with 6 workers having 8 or 9 drones mining was quite of a difference, so getting to 9 drones and only then starting an ovie was worth it as you could still spend the larva with the extractor trick even though seeming you were supply blocked. The difference between 13 and 14 drones isn't that big, so its ok starting an ovie on 13 and then you can spend the larva as you are 13/14, so the larva maintains its growths without the extractor trick. It turned out that 13 ovie is as good if not better then the 14 ovie, so no extractor trick is in need in legacy. Some still do it, and if you go for a 14 ovie rather then a 13 ovie then do it. But if you go for a 13 ovie its not even worth it. The Extractor Trick makes sense if you go for a Proxy Hatch. Send 13th drone to the enemy -> build a 14th -> Overlord -> Extractor Trick with the Proxy Hatch drone | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On November 13 2018 06:53 Umpteen wrote: I'm finding it very, very difficult to take a third against a terran who is going mech, and even harder to deny his third/fourth. I'm only in gold so I'm not doing anything terribly well, but this is a situation where I really just don't know what I should even be trying to achieve. I feel trapped into making queens and spores and early roaches by his couple of liberators and 6-8 hellions, leaving me on two bases with hardly any drones. Trying to cover a third as well just seems futile. It's not so much that I'm run ragged trying to fend everything off, it's that it just seems to cost so damn much to try and plug all the holes so he doesn't end the game early. I have a zero win-rate - ever - against a liberator/hellion opening since you're in gold it's hard to be certain of what is going wrong, as it could be anything from supply blocks to taking your third too late to bad micro, but generally speaking: - you can make roaches for the purpose of defending hellions, but it's considered quite outdated and not optimal. if you make "safety roaches" you need to make a very conservative number like 4-6 before going back to drones. if you make more than that too early you're essentially cheesing and need to attack. the more normal way to deal with hellions is queen/ling. spread creep, keep your speedlings on the creep, and work on your micro. don't try to kill the hellions unless you're very confident of a full surround, just pull back - terran can keep his hellions as long as your drones are safe. then you can go into later defensive roaches if you scout an armory, which you probably will against mech. - making one spore per mineral line and producing lots of queens is standard against flying unit harassment and there's no reason it should be slowing you down to the point of falling behind. either you're cutting drones too fast or you're not executing the defense well (are you losing drones to liberators? you don't specify). liberators are never intended to do crippling damage, terran is looking for maybe 2-3 drones and lost mining time, and that's if it goes well for him. if your queen defense is solid you can even skip or delay the spores, but in gold it's not a bad idea to be in the habit of making them. - your third base should already be UP by the time hellion harass becomes an issue. you take your third basically as soon as you're able to push the reaper away. often what you do is send your natural queen to the third location while replacing it from the natural hatch, and plant your third as soon as the reaper has to run. how early you get it down depends on the micro battle between you and him, but you take it as soon as you can. if you're being hellbat allined or something you just don't build drones for the third and you make queen roach or queen baneling. losing the third is bad but it's not always game over, especially at your level. -denying a mech player's third is very aggressive. a more stable and typical way to play ZvMech on most maps is to maximize your map control and economy while using mobility and positioning to deny his fourth. remember that even if you don't have an army that can fight him you can still force him to move his units around and manipulate his responses to create openings for damage. that's not to say you can't break a mech player on 3 bases - you can, typically with ravagers and/or swarm hosts - but realize you're being aggressive and you need to really push your attack. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
since you're in gold it's hard to be certain of what is going wrong, as it could be anything from supply blocks to taking your third too late to bad micro, but generally speaking: Like I said: I'm not doing anything particularly well If I get tragically supply blocked, or lose loads of drones or my queens to liberators because I'm too slow to react, or I let the hellions in or any of the other hundred ways I routinely screw up - that doesn't bother me in the least. Try harder next time. What had me scratching my head is that the harder I tried, the worse things seemed to go. The guy on the other side of the map is also in gold, y'know? You would think I'd catch a break sometimes. A zero win-rate had to mean I was actively digging my own grave.The big news from your excellent reply is the timing of the third. I was WAY off the mark there, as well as going roaches too early and too hard (too many drones on gas, not enough minerals for queens etc) - everything was compounding the problem. Thanks again! | ||
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Hydralich
16 Posts
Btw I've reached diamond league since my last question in TvsZ terrans go tanks marines and mines wtf to do against this ? Baneling health drop too low thanks to mines then marines make short work of massed lings + banes. It is impossiable to mass roach or hydra same time because of tanks. All this happens with 2 base tech 2 during first10 mins of the game | ||
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Reki
Philippines89 Posts
Also is hydra now now a thing in ZvT? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
Hydra is a thing in every matchup since their healthbuff, but they will be getting phased out a bit now with indirect buffs to mutalisk play and attack speed nerf to hydra. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On November 22 2018 15:49 insitelol wrote: Guys! What are general protoss responses to 3 hatch no gaz opening (with normal pool timing)? Why isn't it a common bo in PvZ btw? It just skyrockets your economy (~65 drones at 5:00) (low-mid masters). Haven't seen this in a while but when I do I just chrono the first 2 adepts and go kills drones without changing anything to the rest of my build. Their speedling is very late and queens can't deal with shades between main and natural so you can disrupt their mining for much longer than usual. With minimal investment you slow down their eco a ton AND their tech will be late to defend whatever your follow-up is. Reasons why I think overreacting is bad : - They often expect an allin after such a greedy start and blindly build a lot of units/queens to defend - On the other hand it's hard to outgreed a zerg that opened this way. Say you build a your third really fast in response, they can make use of their faster third and extra queens/injects to drone much quicker than you could ever get probes - Some zergs will try to trick you with this opening, stop drone production and allin you | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19386 Posts
Can anyone please shed light on how Queen energy is managed for larva injections? My specific scenario: Before I would just check if the spawn larva timer had been completed and proceed to inject. Now, you can pretty much inject every time energy is available. Because of that change, for the first six minutes I pretty much have zero energy for creep tumors if I have 1 queen to hatchery ratio. In order to get the extra energy for creep tumors in the early game, should I be adding in more queens or should I replace one injection cycle with a spawn creep cycle instead? | ||
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