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On April 24 2016 02:43 Beelzebub1 wrote:
What in the holy mother of God do you do against mass mass widow mines?
Just lost a game where a guy had a failed proxy rax and all he did was take 3 bases behind MASS widow mines, we are talking like 9+ factories double pumping them on 3 bases.
Broodlords were totally useless, all the mines do is move underneath them, Ultralisks seemed to be mildly effective but still, 35+ widow mines bursts them down instantly. And to top it off, Blinding Cloud doesn't effect them which is completely ludicrous, a 200 gas Hive unit utterly useless against them along with all other Hive tech units.
Has anyone dealt with that before? Its impossible to face head on, I already had 2/2 Roaches/Hydralisk out by the time the mine parade started, for every Mine killed by the Hydras a mine shot takes down 3+ Hydralisks with it.
What the hell can even be done against this? Mass Lurkers?
against mass mass mines i had success with ling+bane.
i send the banes one by one or two by two, i right click on the ground where i see the mines clumped up. you don't even need detection if they are not on creep. a mine will be triggered and it will kill the bane, which will damage a few mines nearby. i do this a few times. when i have time to execute this thing, i can trade cost efficiently. in the meantime i send some ling runbys or nydus lings into his base. i tend to do a brood lord followup. as you said, brood lords alone are not enough, but with this bane+ling support they seem to be good.
hots swarm hosts were really good as well, i haven't played SH lately. they had to be well spread out and they worked better with detection. but locust go first, then some lings + overseer go do the cleanup.
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On April 24 2016 16:07 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 08:48 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 24 2016 07:46 IcemanAsi wrote:I've lately been in a slump and I find myself tilting in mostly ZvT. Where consistent pressure builds seem to always, and I mean always, get me. The most frustrating thing is that I feel that even when I get ahead I still lose and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. When Terran plays more passively and I can get to ultra/bane/corruptor I feel I can usually win but if they keep up the pressure, keeping me on muta/bane or hitting while I transition to ultra I get crushed. Here are two replays from tonight where I lose: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6608077http://ggtracker.com/matches/6608078And one where I win: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6608080Would love to hear any tips on what I'm doing wrong. First replay: Prioritize getting your third down faster so you have larva later on in the game. Make sure you have 16 drones mining minerals at each base. I see you starving for minerals and larva here while trying to go fast mutas. Which in turn is slowing down everything else you're trying to do. And the mutas really didn't hurt the terran much even though you rushed them out. The terran only had one turret but still managed to walk all his marines and a tank to your base without losing anything. Be active with your mutas on the map. Make them pay for themselves. 10 minutes into the game you still had not started mining gas at your third. You could be on hive tech at this point. I wouldn't recommend taking that fourth base position under the ledge there against terran. Better creep spread is definitely needed. Get at least one queen for it. I realize a lot of this is mechanics but at the very least pay closer attention to your economy. Fix your build order so that you are either doing heavy damage with your mutas early on or getting them a bit later in favor of a faster third and more time mining minerals so you can macro properly later on. Second Replay: Better creep spread, Mutas actually did a lot of damage. But your economic progression grinded to a halt while you were muta harrassing. You should have ended up ahead of the terran at the end of that but instead you were about even maybe slightly ahead. But you really ended up dying because you didn't have enough ling/bane. Mutas aren't all that great in a direct engagement. You had a lot of mutas and not much of anything else. You were missing a lot of injects so maybe that was the problem. But when you're in that situation where you have nothing but muta/ling bane and the terran is pushing just be spamming injects and building ling/bane. Bring mutas around behind to snipe tanks or reinforcements. Bring your queens forward once they have used up all their energy on inject to help if you need to. A move the zerglings and target the banelings onto marines. If you can get the siege tanks to fire off their first volley on a lone zergling before engaging that is great. Good Luck Can't argue with your overall analysis, my problem is I can't figure why some times my style works and other end up a wash. I agree that my mechanics suffer greatly against this specific style, I'm guessing a major issue is prioritizing injects even when under pressure. Perhaps that's the variable I've been missing. In regards to over making Mutas, that's a very interesting point, I've always tried to get as many mutas as possible, what would you recommend as the magic number against the constant pressure style?
Well, don't forget about the other player. Some players will handle early pressure better. And even the same player may handle it well one game and fail the next.
Sun Tzu says: The skillful warriors in ancient times first made themselves invincible and then awaited the enemy's moment of vulnerability. Invincibility depends on oneself, but the enemy's vulnerability on himself. It follows that those skilled in war can make themselves invincible but cannot cause an enemy to be certainly vulnerable. Therefore, it can be said that, one may know how to achieve victory, but cannot necessarily do so.
This will become even more true as you face better players and win by thinner margins. I wouldn't say there's a magic number of mutas but I would say that it should be enough to handle a medivac with its marines unloading. That's usually 6 to 8. If you want to be getting really aggressive you can get enough to kill turrets in two volleys which is 14. Just make sure to replace the mutas you lose while harrassing.
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Israel681 Posts
On April 25 2016 06:40 ManiacTheZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2016 16:07 IcemanAsi wrote:On April 24 2016 08:48 ManiacTheZealot wrote:On April 24 2016 07:46 IcemanAsi wrote:I've lately been in a slump and I find myself tilting in mostly ZvT. Where consistent pressure builds seem to always, and I mean always, get me. The most frustrating thing is that I feel that even when I get ahead I still lose and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. When Terran plays more passively and I can get to ultra/bane/corruptor I feel I can usually win but if they keep up the pressure, keeping me on muta/bane or hitting while I transition to ultra I get crushed. Here are two replays from tonight where I lose: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6608077http://ggtracker.com/matches/6608078And one where I win: http://ggtracker.com/matches/6608080Would love to hear any tips on what I'm doing wrong. First replay: Prioritize getting your third down faster so you have larva later on in the game. Make sure you have 16 drones mining minerals at each base. I see you starving for minerals and larva here while trying to go fast mutas. Which in turn is slowing down everything else you're trying to do. And the mutas really didn't hurt the terran much even though you rushed them out. The terran only had one turret but still managed to walk all his marines and a tank to your base without losing anything. Be active with your mutas on the map. Make them pay for themselves. 10 minutes into the game you still had not started mining gas at your third. You could be on hive tech at this point. I wouldn't recommend taking that fourth base position under the ledge there against terran. Better creep spread is definitely needed. Get at least one queen for it. I realize a lot of this is mechanics but at the very least pay closer attention to your economy. Fix your build order so that you are either doing heavy damage with your mutas early on or getting them a bit later in favor of a faster third and more time mining minerals so you can macro properly later on. Second Replay: Better creep spread, Mutas actually did a lot of damage. But your economic progression grinded to a halt while you were muta harrassing. You should have ended up ahead of the terran at the end of that but instead you were about even maybe slightly ahead. But you really ended up dying because you didn't have enough ling/bane. Mutas aren't all that great in a direct engagement. You had a lot of mutas and not much of anything else. You were missing a lot of injects so maybe that was the problem. But when you're in that situation where you have nothing but muta/ling bane and the terran is pushing just be spamming injects and building ling/bane. Bring mutas around behind to snipe tanks or reinforcements. Bring your queens forward once they have used up all their energy on inject to help if you need to. A move the zerglings and target the banelings onto marines. If you can get the siege tanks to fire off their first volley on a lone zergling before engaging that is great. Good Luck Can't argue with your overall analysis, my problem is I can't figure why some times my style works and other end up a wash. I agree that my mechanics suffer greatly against this specific style, I'm guessing a major issue is prioritizing injects even when under pressure. Perhaps that's the variable I've been missing. In regards to over making Mutas, that's a very interesting point, I've always tried to get as many mutas as possible, what would you recommend as the magic number against the constant pressure style? Well, don't forget about the other player. Some players will handle early pressure better. And even the same player may handle it well one game and fail the next. Sun Tzu says: The skillful warriors in ancient times first made themselves invincible and then awaited the enemy's moment of vulnerability. Invincibility depends on oneself, but the enemy's vulnerability on himself. It follows that those skilled in war can make themselves invincible but cannot cause an enemy to be certainly vulnerable. Therefore, it can be said that, one may know how to achieve victory, but cannot necessarily do so. This will become even more true as you face better players and win by thinner margins. I wouldn't say there's a magic number of mutas but I would say that it should be enough to handle a medivac with its marines unloading. That's usually 6 to 8. If you want to be getting really aggressive you can get enough to kill turrets in two volleys which is 14. Just make sure to replace the mutas you lose while harrassing.
Played some games last night with a focus on injecting under pressure and reducing the muta count for more ling/bane.
Felt much better, absolutely crushed a marine mine composition that usually wrecks me. I'm guessing these were the major issues I was missing to move the next step forward. Thanks a lot!
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how do you guys set up your hotkeys? i feel kinda lost on this subject as most people tell me it's subjective and up to comfort but i don't really have good macro so i don't know what i need
what i've been doing is putting all my hatcheries on 1, all my inject queens on 2, my creep queen on 3, and everything after that is just army or any workers i want to select
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Why not ? That's perfectly fine. Maybe add some camera hotkeys if you're having troubles with wandering queens (unless there's something I'm not aware off)
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1 hatcheries 2 main army units 3 special units 4 creep queens
Back space for injects
I'm simple as apple pie x]
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I got 4 as hatcheries and 5 for queens. Other numbers for army if and when as needed.
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1 hatcheries
2 queens
3 creep queens / 2nd set of spell casters in lategame
4 army
5 harass/air (lings or mutas or corruptors sometimes)
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thanks guys, much appreciated
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Israel681 Posts
1 - hatcheries
2 - main army
3 - secondary army ( muta / banes in baneling wars / casters when needed )
4 - tertiary army ( drop defense group / ling backstab group / dropped roaches )
I use camera hotkeys for the bases ( I set up 6 between the first drone and first overlord at the start of every game ) and manually inject
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Is it just me or does the zvp meta change like every other day?
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I would concern myself less about a "meta" and concern myself more about playing.
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The ZvP meta changes weekly because Zerg players are trying to find a solid way to beat the immortal archon pushes.
After Roach Hydra stopped working we went to Ling Hydra and eventually Ling Baneling Hydra.
The current Meta is that we cut the hydras and instead go pure baneling and try to blow the Protoss up.
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zvp also has a lot of strategies that may not be "good" but require specific responses, which means on ladder and bo1 you can do tons of crazy shit at any time without regard for the meta. like, one base proxy DT isn't really a good build, but anyone can lose to it. mass roach isn't supposed to work, but if protoss is too greedy or throws down bad forcefields they die
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is it just me or ist he frustating-factor for zerg in lotv even higher than it used to be in hots? i feel like there is even more random stuff and bullshit builds that can make you lose the game instantly.
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On April 28 2016 06:15 Terence Chill wrote:
is it just me or ist he frustating-factor for zerg in lotv even higher than it used to be in hots? i feel like there is even more random stuff and bullshit builds that can make you lose the game instantly.
That's not necessarily only for zerg, goes for other races i'm sure ^^
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² (group 0) : broodlords
1 : principal army
2 : ravagers (they are also on group 1, but i put them on a specific group as i plan with queen generally on 1 and prefer hit 2 than alt everytime)
3 : air army mutas, or corruptors + viper +/-overseer.
4 : Hacheries
5 : nyndus or SH when i use (rarely)
mouse side down (group 7) : infestors
mouse side up (group 8) : vipers
That's a lot but i feel i need this to control properly late game zerg army.
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1: Army
2: Units that are somewhere else. Eg, mutas, harassing units, runbys.
3: Queens early game, spellcasters/runbys
4: Hatcheries
5: Evos
6: Nydus
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My hotkeys are:
Tab: All hatchs
The left 1 key: Queens
1: Main army
2: Secondary units (banes, lurkers, etc..)
3: Flying units
4: infestors or vipers
5: Bonus key (Nydus or overseer)
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I have a ZvP question:
How do you deal with early archons?
I just played a game where my opponent probably went for an early dark templar attack, but my second overlord scout scouted the dark shrine. I don't know if it was the plan from the start, or a transition he made after seeing my scout, but in the replay he turned his DTs into archons which I couldn't deal with the army I had (roach ravager lings with +1/+1 missile upgrades).
He got me by surprise as I was on my way for the timing attack, so it wasn't a good engagement for me, but I felt like these archons would have dealt with my army even if the engagement was better.
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EPT
