Hi lads, previous HotS Diamond player here. Figured it’s about time to get back into the SC2 groove. :D My main question is builds.
In HotS, Hatch First (15h, 16p, 16g) was pretty much viable in all match ups with different transition points for the different matchups. Like in ZvT you got a 3rd base @6:10, ~44 supply and in ZvP you got a 3rd base @4:00, ~24 supply. And ZvZ you just threw Ling Baneling until the other person died, lol.
So I was wondering if there’s a build like that in LotV and what general timings are for the 3rd base in different matchups.
btw, I mostly intend to win with Zergling aggression and feel my way through transitions and instinct if necessary until I reach Plat/Diamond. So it’s not necessary to go too in depth with compositions although some of the more standard ones would be nice.
On May 17 2016 00:32 MadaoDotaSc2 wrote: i just bought the games some days ago and i play with AI in par with next lvl of hard but keep going up and down. When should i start playing vs humans? Also is there somewhere a video that explains what all units in sc2 do ? and how to counter em as zerg? also some starting guide videos about not only a build but the explain of why its good and in which condition. i searched on utube but didn't find more than some things about mechanics and B.O. alone :S Thanks in advance hope to enjoy my stay in Sc2 comming from 8 years in dota
Welcome to the hardest game on the planet.
Start playing against humans right now, forget the AI, bathe yourself in the fires of 1v1, the computer is retarded won't make you a better player.
Go on SC2 Reddit AllThings Zerg there is alot of build order and mechanics information.
On May 17 2016 07:38 MoosyDoosy wrote: Hi lads, previous HotS Diamond player here. Figured it’s about time to get back into the SC2 groove. :D My main question is builds.
In HotS, Hatch First (15h, 16p, 16g) was pretty much viable in all match ups with different transition points for the different matchups. Like in ZvT you got a 3rd base @6:10, ~44 supply and in ZvP you got a 3rd base @4:00, ~24 supply. And ZvZ you just threw Ling Baneling until the other person died, lol.
So I was wondering if there’s a build like that in LotV and what general timings are for the 3rd base in different matchups.
btw, I mostly intend to win with Zergling aggression and feel my way through transitions and instinct if necessary until I reach Plat/Diamond. So it’s not necessary to go too in depth with compositions although some of the more standard ones would be nice.
It's pretty much the same builds, just 1 or 2 drones later. I do 17/17/17, I guess you can go for 17/18/18. Edit : we tend to get a faster third though. between 30 and 40 supply. But as you can guess already, it depends of the opponent's build order. For ZvP there are a lot of z that go triple hatch before pool even though I don't really understand the point of this. But hey, to each their own I guess.
On May 06 2016 06:47 Beelzebub1 wrote: Definitely noted gentleman, also had a ZvP question for anyone to chime in.
I started to pick up some steam with Darks little +1 speedling/baneling thing but I kind of feel like it got weak once Protoss remember they spent years practicing clean force fields.
I watch every ZvP replay where I lose and I seem to never ever be able to secure a supply lead or a superior economy when I open with 17 hatch/17 gas/16 pool. I feel like the only games I really secure that good economy lead is when I go 3 hatch before pool but I always feel super vulnerable to pretty much anything the Protoss throws at me (because they will punish it no question).
With the really late speed I am scared of even mildly determined Adept pressure, even the initial two alot of Protoss players seems to be able to eek out justifiable or better damage if I don't have speed on the map to lock him into his third base.
Should I just be opening 3 hatch pool and learn to scout defend better? Seems like when I open safe 90% of the time a Protoss player will just take a greedy and not really contestable third and crush me with a higher tech army so should I just start playing very greedy in the match up?
Mm.. really don't get your problem. When you play ling/bane vs either terran or protoss you are not looking for a supply advantage. You will never have it regardless of your economy because 1 bane almost cost 1 roach but is 1/4 of its supply. So forget it. About the strat itself. Not sure about Dark's build with +1 timing or something, but i just play ling/bane and have a huge success with it and i don't have any troubles vs protoss at any stage of the game (i only lose because of control/decision making etc), exept when i let him mass colossi. Actually i find ling bane way better vs mass adpets than roaches. And for 3rd pushes with hydra or w/o. or speed teching to broodlords. or defending adepts/phoenix timings. or anything.
So is it true that Ling Baneling is viable in all matchups now?
Also, what unit composition should I aim for in ZvZ?
Starting to make my way up the ladder. :D
Edit: Ah also, when should I be going for gases in my match ups? I tend to be getting them on bases that I'm mineral saturated on and use Ling harass to buy time until I get tech. But I'm not sure if this is good lol. Also, what tech should I be getting with my gas and in what order for the different matchups?
On May 06 2016 06:47 Beelzebub1 wrote: Definitely noted gentleman, also had a ZvP question for anyone to chime in.
I started to pick up some steam with Darks little +1 speedling/baneling thing but I kind of feel like it got weak once Protoss remember they spent years practicing clean force fields.
I watch every ZvP replay where I lose and I seem to never ever be able to secure a supply lead or a superior economy when I open with 17 hatch/17 gas/16 pool. I feel like the only games I really secure that good economy lead is when I go 3 hatch before pool but I always feel super vulnerable to pretty much anything the Protoss throws at me (because they will punish it no question).
With the really late speed I am scared of even mildly determined Adept pressure, even the initial two alot of Protoss players seems to be able to eek out justifiable or better damage if I don't have speed on the map to lock him into his third base.
Should I just be opening 3 hatch pool and learn to scout defend better? Seems like when I open safe 90% of the time a Protoss player will just take a greedy and not really contestable third and crush me with a higher tech army so should I just start playing very greedy in the match up?
Mm.. really don't get your problem. When you play ling/bane vs either terran or protoss you are not looking for a supply advantage. You will never have it regardless of your economy because 1 bane almost cost 1 roach but is 1/4 of its supply. So forget it. About the strat itself. Not sure about Dark's build with +1 timing or something, but i just play ling/bane and have a huge success with it and i don't have any troubles vs protoss at any stage of the game (i only lose because of control/decision making etc), exept when i let him mass colossi. Actually i find ling bane way better vs mass adpets than roaches. And for 3rd pushes with hydra or w/o. or speed teching to broodlords. or defending adepts/phoenix timings. or anything.
Wait, what? Mass colossi? I haven't seen a colossus on my screen ever, they're as rare as a zerg going swarm hosts.
That being said, I'm not a high ranked player or anything (Diamond in Korea) and only recently came to Lotv after not playing for over a year, highest rank was also diamond in Europe. I don't know if it's because of the fact that I'm not 100% used to lotv yet but I feel like I'm forced to be terribly 1-dimensional and on top of that I also feel like I'm the weakest race out there with the least options to pressure compared to the other 2. Heh, maybe it's just me and I need to get better RIP zerg masterrace in proleague tho.
Here is a ZvP question: what do you guys do vs a DT warp prism harass?
I just played a game vs a Protoss (master) on ladder who abused warp prisms and DT all along while we were both macroing. I scouted it and build a preemptive spine + spore in all 3 bases, but he just warped 3-5 DTs each time and sniped a random tech building before moving up in the WP (pool, RW, bane nest, hydra den etc) and just kept doing that. It was hard to get a surround with lings before he could escape as WP has a big range, but even when I managed to kill those he can just warp them in again.
The result is a WP that lives forever and just snipes whatever tech I have all game long. Problem is to kill it for good I would need mutas/corruptors but in order to get my macro running I feel I cannot afford to tech Lair this soon just to defends this, and even then he would snipe the spire ans lift off... Or I would need 2 spores 3 spines as a strict minimum at each base to be safe vs this.
Here is a ZvP question: what do you guys do vs a DT warp prism harass?
I just played a game vs a Protoss (master) on ladder who abused warp prisms and DT all along while we were both macroing. I scouted it and build a preemptive spine + spore in all 3 bases, but he just warped 3-5 DTs each time and sniped a random tech building before moving up in the WP (pool, RW, bane nest, hydra den etc) and just kept doing that. It was hard to get a surround with lings before he could escape as WP has a big range, but even when I managed to kill those he can just warp them in again.
The result is a WP that lives forever and just snipes whatever tech I have all game long. Problem is to kill it for good I would need mutas/corruptors but in order to get my macro running I feel I cannot afford to tech Lair this soon just to defends this, and even then he would snipe the spire ans lift off... Or I would need 2 spores 3 spines as a strict minimum at each base to be safe vs this.
What is your usual response vs such play?
Thank you all!
Make a bunch of Lings. Keep a small pack at home and morph an Overseer if you have Lair to chase the DT's down. When the Warp Prism shows up at your base, use the Queens to focus fire it.
Meanwhile, send the rest of your Lings across the map and attack the opponent's base. The Protoss will be spending so much money on the DT's if he's warping in as many of them as you say. As a result, he'll be unable to make proper defense. So make Lings, attack, and if you see he doesn't have enough defense, just start flooding Lings and there'll be nothing Protoss can do.
This will actually happen surprisingly often. Protoss will try some ridiculous attack or harass, and when you defend, you can just send Lings into their base and crush them.
Makes sense. I guess teching lair just for overseers upon seeing his tech without taking additional gases will not hurt my eco too much. Maybe sim city a bit better so my key buildings are safe as well...
I've been using dark's ling/bane in zvp, but lately i've been hitting a LOT of two base adept all ins. Basically adept after adept and every game is a variation of this. Does anyone have any experience with defending these types of pushes with just ling bane? Is this even possible?
On June 08 2016 16:00 Dr Bjorn wrote: I've been using dark's ling/bane in zvp, but lately i've been hitting a LOT of two base adept all ins. Basically adept after adept and every game is a variation of this. Does anyone have any experience with defending these types of pushes with just ling bane? Is this even possible?
PS: this is master's league.
I think you can defend with both but in my experience if they really commit to the push it can be difficult to defend with ling-bane only. A good advise would be to put a spine in each base and/or make extra queens to snipe the warp prism.
If you defend with roaches, you can make a 3:40 roach warren and split your roaches between bases. If they take a third behind that, don't commit too much to the defense or you'll fall behind (cfr Elazer vs Harstem in the Pig daily #14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVjrF8n0t-E)).
In your opinion, what's the best thing to do when you scout early 1-1 being upgraded in zvz?
Thanks
It really depends on whether that 1-1 is for Zerglings or Roaches / Ravagers, and also if it is off 2 or 3base., there are a few options. First of all you would want to respond with almost mirroring except hard countering what he is doing, for example if he is going 1-1 with mass ling bane you would go +1 armor or attack and out macro him with Roach / ling / bane, If he is going 1-1 upgraded roaches of 2 base then you would most likely want to mirror that and or respond with mutalisks and 1-1 or +1 upgrade zerglings and some banelings to splash the roaches as they are grouped together ( if possible ), I hope this helped.
P.S. Also good building placement will help especially if he is going 1-1 lings.
In your opinion, what's the best thing to do when you scout early 1-1 being upgraded in zvz?
Thanks
It really depends on whether that 1-1 is for Zerglings or Roaches / Ravagers, and also if it is off 2 or 3base., there are a few options. First of all you would want to respond with almost mirroring except hard countering what he is doing, for example if he is going 1-1 with mass ling bane you would go +1 armor or attack and out macro him with Roach / ling / bane, If he is going 1-1 upgraded roaches of 2 base then you would most likely want to mirror that and or respond with mutalisks and 1-1 or +1 upgrade zerglings and some banelings to splash the roaches as they are grouped together ( if possible ), I hope this helped.
P.S. Also good building placement will help especially if he is going 1-1 lings.
Thanks man. So the answer is pretty much: do the same but a little bit later to have more eco? Also, is it possible to punish this build? Like, going for a massive ling-bling all-in? I mean, if he spends 250 gas on upgrdaes, that's 10 bannelings less he can afford...
In your opinion, what's the best thing to do when you scout early 1-1 being upgraded in zvz?
Thanks
It really depends on whether that 1-1 is for Zerglings or Roaches / Ravagers, and also if it is off 2 or 3base., there are a few options. First of all you would want to respond with almost mirroring except hard countering what he is doing, for example if he is going 1-1 with mass ling bane you would go +1 armor or attack and out macro him with Roach / ling / bane, If he is going 1-1 upgraded roaches of 2 base then you would most likely want to mirror that and or respond with mutalisks and 1-1 or +1 upgrade zerglings and some banelings to splash the roaches as they are grouped together ( if possible ), I hope this helped.
P.S. Also good building placement will help especially if he is going 1-1 lings.
Thanks man. So the answer is pretty much: do the same but a little bit later to have more eco? Also, is it possible to punish this build? Like, going for a massive ling-bling all-in? I mean, if he spends 250 gas on upgrdaes, that's 10 bannelings less he can afford...
if it's early 1/1 lings you should be able to take an earlier 3rd/drone lead over him and keep attacking with waves of ling/bane while starting at least 1 ling upgrade yourself 1/1 ling openings are really good vs mutas, but kinda just die vs [roach/]bane allins
On June 08 2016 16:00 Dr Bjorn wrote: I've been using dark's ling/bane in zvp, but lately i've been hitting a LOT of two base adept all ins. Basically adept after adept and every game is a variation of this. Does anyone have any experience with defending these types of pushes with just ling bane? Is this even possible?
PS: this is master's league.
Dark is dark, even if you're top 8 master or gm or whatever, if you aren't confident that you can successfully defend the adepts using lings banes only, then take a more passive style like making a faster roach den. or build the bane nest a little later if you're suspecting him to go full adepts.
Dark knows that everytime the adepts are hitting everything but the zerglings, he's gaining a lot of momentum. He's also a progamer and does well when it comes to surrouding the adepts in order to fully benefit the banes' spalsh.
In your opinion, what's the best thing to do when you scout early 1-1 being upgraded in zvz?
Thanks
It really depends on whether that 1-1 is for Zerglings or Roaches / Ravagers, and also if it is off 2 or 3base., there are a few options. First of all you would want to respond with almost mirroring except hard countering what he is doing, for example if he is going 1-1 with mass ling bane you would go +1 armor or attack and out macro him with Roach / ling / bane, If he is going 1-1 upgraded roaches of 2 base then you would most likely want to mirror that and or respond with mutalisks and 1-1 or +1 upgrade zerglings and some banelings to splash the roaches as they are grouped together ( if possible ), I hope this helped.
P.S. Also good building placement will help especially if he is going 1-1 lings.
If he is going 1 1 lings, just upgrade the attack. Defense will give you nothing vs +1 attack banes and you'll still be behind in upgrades. +1 attack will make sure your banes kill his +1 armor lings
Hi guys, what Z comp is usable vs mass Thors + PFs + <whatever support>? Tried remaxing 5 times vs no pressure w/10k+ resources and eventually died after having tried every Z unit and a combination of those (even SH lol). Nothing worked :/
On June 14 2016 02:48 DjayEl wrote: Hi guys, what Z comp is usable vs mass Thors + PFs + <whatever support>? Tried remaxing 5 times vs no pressure w/10k+ resources and eventually died after having tried every Z unit and a combination of those (even SH lol). Nothing worked :/
Yea, but no: believe I tried as well, it just dies if any tanks are supporting the Thors. And it requires way too much larvae, altough I agree it can work if the plan is to win 1 big engagement and that's it.
Seriously, there should be something cost efficient agaist those...
EPT
