On June 14 2016 02:48 DjayEl wrote: Hi guys, what Z comp is usable vs mass Thors + PFs + <whatever support>? Tried remaxing 5 times vs no pressure w/10k+ resources and eventually died after having tried every Z unit and a combination of those (even SH lol). Nothing worked :/
In theory : - Roach Warren. It helps a lot against hellions and you can make ravagers in case he's doing a lot of liberators later on. - Vipers (for blinding clouds the tanks or clumped thors, abduct thors/tanks/eventually liberators if you have spores nearby) - Abusing the immobility of mech (either drops if they don't have a lot of turrets around his base and mostly work only the first time, or nydus). Use the creep to see when he's coming and have a better judgment of his army so that you can feel confident about flanking him and if not, then use the army to attack somewhere else (cutting the reinforcement is really good). Eventually, you can make a bane nest and drops since, if they don't scout a spire, they'll hardly make any defenses near the scvs. But I can't guarantee you that he won't have turrets around his base though. - And finally, probably the most important one : don't ever let him take a 4th base (hell even his third)
Now in practice, that's a different story. Don't get me wrong, I also hate mech. It feels like a protoss' deathball on steroid.
Ok. So. I can't beat protoss. At all. P has my every unit countered. adepts melt lings. immortals and disruptors destroy everything else on the ground. They amove in any comp and that's it. lurkers/ravagers/ultras, any gorund force. Then they go mass air and i got no answer as well. They adapted to bane play so its literally unusable. Just split adepts in the earlygame, make archons in lategame. And ofc warp prism. Like what i am supposed to do? This is not funny. top dia/low masters.
On June 14 2016 02:48 DjayEl wrote: Hi guys, what Z comp is usable vs mass Thors + PFs + <whatever support>? Tried remaxing 5 times vs no pressure w/10k+ resources and eventually died after having tried every Z unit and a combination of those (even SH lol). Nothing worked :/
In theory : - Roach Warren. It helps a lot against hellions and you can make ravagers in case he's doing a lot of liberators later on. - Vipers (for blinding clouds the tanks or clumped thors, abduct thors/tanks/eventually liberators if you have spores nearby) - Abusing the immobility of mech (either drops if they don't have a lot of turrets around his base and mostly work only the first time, or nydus). Use the creep to see when he's coming and have a better judgment of his army so that you can feel confident about flanking him and if not, then use the army to attack somewhere else (cutting the reinforcement is really good). Eventually, you can make a bane nest and drops since, if they don't scout a spire, they'll hardly make any defenses near the scvs. But I can't guarantee you that he won't have turrets around his base though. - And finally, probably the most important one : don't ever let him take a 4th base (hell even his third)
Now in practice, that's a different story. Don't get me wrong, I also hate mech. It feels like a protoss' deathball on steroid.
I see... Well, wasn't mech supossed not to be viable or some shit like that? I mean, I really pull my ass off trying to break him when I own bio with MLB 70% of my games, so I was quite sad, but now I can see I am not alone
But got it, for the roaches. Probably better to get on the offensive vs just taking a map and let them take their 4th...
On June 15 2016 03:23 insitelol wrote: Ok. So. I can't beat protoss. At all. P has my every unit countered. adepts melt lings. immortals and disruptors destroy everything else on the ground. They amove in any comp and that's it. lurkers/ravagers/ultras, any gorund force. Then they go mass air and i got no answer as well. They adapted to bane play so its literally unusable. Just split adepts in the earlygame, make archons in lategame. And ofc warp prism. Like what i am supposed to do? This is not funny. top dia/low masters.
Hey there buddy, I am a GM Zerg and I do decently well against Protoss.
In the current meta you have 3 compositions that are really viable: Ling Hydra Lurker Ling Hydra Baneling Ling Baneling -> Hive
Other units simply die against chargelot / immortal (roaches / ravagers / ultras) you can still play them but you will probably struggle.
I made 3 video guides in which I show how to play the compositions against a top 40 GM on EU.
Dude Railgan is the man with the master plan helping us scrubs out <3
Question man, I'm mid masters and I see alot of pro's using Roach based tactics against Terran, I personally hate using Roaches in any sense vs. Terran because I feel like you can't ever really leave your base because they scout the move out and then the double drops start commencing at worst and at best I feel like you need to hit a very sharp timing or the Roaches just turn to shit once the medivac count starts stacking up.
Should I learn to use them or is Ling/Bling/Corruptor into Viper/Ultralisk compositions just as viable? Do you use roaches vs Terran? Should I only use them on small maps close positions?
On June 16 2016 02:23 Beelzebub1 wrote: Dude Railgan is the man with the master plan helping us scrubs out <3
Question man, I'm mid masters and I see alot of pro's using Roach based tactics against Terran, I personally hate using Roaches in any sense vs. Terran because I feel like you can't ever really leave your base because they scout the move out and then the double drops start commencing at worst and at best I feel like you need to hit a very sharp timing or the Roaches just turn to shit once the medivac count starts stacking up.
Should I learn to use them or is Ling/Bling/Corruptor into Viper/Ultralisk compositions just as viable? Do you use roaches vs Terran? Should I only use them on small maps close positions?
I still play Roach Ravager (with Hydras / Corruptors as I feel like) very often. However, Ling Baneling Corruptor does just fine. I recently started using that composition together with swarmhosts.
This Video explains the basics
This Video is an application of it
If you are looking for standard ling bane corruptor.
This is a Game against Jason where I play exactly that
Streamers like PiG also use Ling Bane Corruptor into hive and the composition definitly works. I would only advice against Ling Baneling Mutalisk as Liberators are too big of a threat against mass Muta gameplay.
If you are interested into more roach heavy gameplay:
Is a Roach Ravager Hydra Corruptor Game where I explain my decisions n stuff. Might help you.
Hi, I just came back from a very long break (HoTS) and decided to switch to zerg. When my opponent plays something normal (ie. cheese/normal compositions) I do fine and know what i need to do to improve. However I have questions about some weirder things. What should my comp be vs mech? and how do I handle a turtle toss who just builds up a massive army of void ray/carrier/tempest. In both cases I pretty much took the entire map, but eventually lost because i couldn't fight there army, and it wasn't a macro issue (in both cases I was either ahead economically)
Edit: Also just lost to 3 rax reaper, got completely wrecked, what should my response be?
On June 15 2016 03:23 insitelol wrote: Ok. So. I can't beat protoss. At all. P has my every unit countered. adepts melt lings. immortals and disruptors destroy everything else on the ground. They amove in any comp and that's it. lurkers/ravagers/ultras, any gorund force. Then they go mass air and i got no answer as well. They adapted to bane play so its literally unusable. Just split adepts in the earlygame, make archons in lategame. And ofc warp prism. Like what i am supposed to do? This is not funny. top dia/low masters.
Hydra Lurker Ling timing destroys everything. PiG had a good video on mineral saturation that showcased Snute's build of it which was actually similar to the one I used all the way to Masters. Basically standard 3 hatch opener-> Metabolic boost, pull 2 drones off gas -> 2 base mineral saturation, grab 2 more gases and refill gas from before -> round of lings -> drone up third -> 3 base mineral saturation, grab rest of gases.
Use of gas: 100 gas - metabolic boost 100 gas - lair
@100% lair - hydralisk den @100% hydralisk den - lurker den
then you just pump out units. you grab a roach warren at or a little before you start lair for safety. I was able to go without making a roach warren unil masters with pure mineral defense of lings, spines, and spores.
Thanks for all the responses. It seems that my mistake was (as always) trying to play a "standard" macro game w/o a definite plan. Should focus on some solid timing attacks with 3 fast hatcheries since protoss is not terran in terms of early game harass. Being behind in eco with "normal" 2 bases into 3 queens into 3rd build always bugged be.
On June 16 2016 16:44 insitelol wrote: Thanks for all the responses. It seems that my mistake was (as always) trying to play a "standard" macro game w/o a definite plan. Should focus on some solid timing attacks with 3 fast hatcheries since protoss is not terran in terms of early game harass. Being behind in eco with "normal" 2 bases into 3 queens into 3rd build always bugged be.
You can get a 3rd hatch before your 2nd Queen. I first saw Dark do that.
On June 16 2016 16:44 insitelol wrote: Thanks for all the responses. It seems that my mistake was (as always) trying to play a "standard" macro game w/o a definite plan. Should focus on some solid timing attacks with 3 fast hatcheries since protoss is not terran in terms of early game harass. Being behind in eco with "normal" 2 bases into 3 queens into 3rd build always bugged be.
You can get a 3rd hatch before your 2nd Queen. I first saw Dark do that.
Yes i saw that in your video. Guess i gonna stick to that.
On June 16 2016 16:44 insitelol wrote: Thanks for all the responses. It seems that my mistake was (as always) trying to play a "standard" macro game w/o a definite plan. Should focus on some solid timing attacks with 3 fast hatcheries since protoss is not terran in terms of early game harass. Being behind in eco with "normal" 2 bases into 3 queens into 3rd build always bugged be.
You can get a 3rd hatch before your 2nd Queen. I first saw Dark do that.
Yes i saw that in your video. Guess i gonna stick to that.
It's a bit harder to play. PiG posted a ling bane guide hre where he talks about the build
The struggle is real today, trying to get back into master and i am loosing like i should not.
Currently i am trying something i got from Snute, well a ton of Zergs are doing this in PvP relativly frequently.
So what i am talking about is taking gases arround 3:00 to 3:40. 2 Gases and the other 4 when your 3 bases are saturated.
So i met this protoss on ladder who even trashtalked me in chat (at least thats how i felt, but thats probably just me) and told me that i can´t hold stalkers without gas for speed. He walks over the map with 2 stalkers, completly fucks my play up and follows up with an allin. The thing that bothers me are the early 2 stalkers.
How would you approach this? I was thrown off, have not encounterd that yet. Same thing for adepts How do you hold adepts without speed? Idk but just 2 Adepts seem to be tanky enough to do their damage even just with drone slids. If he follows up with more adepts its kinda gg.
So I'm reeeally at a loss and frustrated against this style of play, it's generally a low APM (sub 150) fast three base, they go Phoenix to kind of pin you down for a minute or so, they wall off their third with Gates and Pylons and they begin massing The Golden Armada with (seems to be the case) 8 or more High Templars for storms.
Things I have tried
Hydra/Banelings busts seem to be your best bet but obviously it's totally all in, I do win sometimes with it against less then prepared Protoss players but when they are picking off drones with aerial units they are obviously scouting you and if they prepare with mass cannons it's difficult to break the wall.
Going mass turtle Lurker into turtle doom air army seems to fail miserably as Protoss air units are pretty much superior to Zerg units in deathball formations. Void Rays poop on Corruptors, going Mutalisk is just a waste of gas because they already have a Phoenix flock on patrol, and the 8 + High Templars make pulling in the Mothership/Carriers/Tempests difficult and it either suicides the Vipers (gas you cannot afford to be losing) or the ground units get stormed.
Couple this with a Warp Prism flying around and warping in free zealots (I only say free because it's a minimal investment for harass by this point they are on turtle mode 4 bases and can afford to throw away minerals to kill hatcheries) and I am pretty much at a huge loss dealing with this.
Is it OP? Is it not OP? Are there any higher level players that have a good solid way of defeating this? I feel like Protoss has found a way to develop yet another unkillable deathball in this expansion and now that Mutalisks are utter crap vs Stargate tech I'm just left scratching my head and frustrated.
On June 25 2016 02:30 Beelzebub1 wrote: So I'm reeeally at a loss and frustrated against this style of play, it's generally a low APM (sub 150) fast three base, they go Phoenix to kind of pin you down for a minute or so, they wall off their third with Gates and Pylons and they begin massing The Golden Armada with (seems to be the case) 8 or more High Templars for storms.
Things I have tried
Hydra/Banelings busts seem to be your best bet but obviously it's totally all in, I do win sometimes with it against less then prepared Protoss players but when they are picking off drones with aerial units they are obviously scouting you and if they prepare with mass cannons it's difficult to break the wall.
Going mass turtle Lurker into turtle doom air army seems to fail miserably as Protoss air units are pretty much superior to Zerg units in deathball formations. Void Rays poop on Corruptors, going Mutalisk is just a waste of gas because they already have a Phoenix flock on patrol, and the 8 + High Templars make pulling in the Mothership/Carriers/Tempests difficult and it either suicides the Vipers (gas you cannot afford to be losing) or the ground units get stormed.
Couple this with a Warp Prism flying around and warping in free zealots (I only say free because it's a minimal investment for harass by this point they are on turtle mode 4 bases and can afford to throw away minerals to kill hatcheries) and I am pretty much at a huge loss dealing with this.
Is it OP? Is it not OP? Are there any higher level players that have a good solid way of defeating this? I feel like Protoss has found a way to develop yet another unkillable deathball in this expansion and now that Mutalisks are utter crap vs Stargate tech I'm just left scratching my head and frustrated.
Masters Zerg btw any help much appreciated
not sure if it helps. This is how I play against it. You go Ling Bane Hydra -> Corruptor and if they tech to storm aswell you get Ultras like here:
Basically -> Ling Hydra to keep phoenix / voidray count low --> get corruptors vs massive air --> get ultras vs hightemplar / archons --> get vipers for abductions and parasitic bombs.
Railgan, can you give me the signal to know whether the Protoss is going 2 base all-in, DT or for long game macro? I'm aware that mass gateways or delayed third could be a signal, but don't know whether you can scout it early game with overlord or ling poke to safely drone up.
In other way to ask this, what scouting signal trigger your drone/army production in ZvP?
On June 26 2016 19:23 hunterxx wrote: Railgan, can you give me the signal to know whether the Protoss is going 2 base all-in, DT or for long game macro? I'm aware that mass gateways or delayed third could be a signal, but don't know whether you can scout it early game with overlord or ling poke to safely drone up.
In other way to ask this, what scouting signal trigger your drone/army production in ZvP?
If there is no 3rd by 4:30 I am worried about 2 base allins. If the Protoss opens TC but does not go up to ~4 gates and has 6 adepts ready then I am worried about DT's
On June 15 2016 03:23 insitelol wrote: Ok. So. I can't beat protoss. At all. P has my every unit countered. adepts melt lings. immortals and disruptors destroy everything else on the ground. They amove in any comp and that's it. lurkers/ravagers/ultras, any gorund force. Then they go mass air and i got no answer as well. They adapted to bane play so its literally unusable. Just split adepts in the earlygame, make archons in lategame. And ofc warp prism. Like what i am supposed to do? This is not funny. top dia/low masters.
Hey there buddy, I am a GM Zerg and I do decently well against Protoss.
In the current meta you have 3 compositions that are really viable: Ling Hydra Lurker Ling Hydra Baneling Ling Baneling -> Hive
Other units simply die against chargelot / immortal (roaches / ravagers / ultras) you can still play them but you will probably struggle.
Hello Railgan, thank you for the posts here (I also watched some of your games), they really help me improve. Especially the 3 Roach opener. I made my own deviation, but started with the exact build you suggest, and my win rate ratio vs Terran is great now.
Regarding the ZvP options you suggest, in the hydra bane ling one, how do you counter an early push with 7 adepts? Should I have about 5 safety banes at home? May be scout it on time, so I can prepare more units? And how do you deal with early prisms with it? Does queens and lings are enough to deal with the prism and the adepts (stalker/zealot) which comes with it and warps in my base?
Usually I have safety roaches, but I don't really like this option as (prefer banes), so all three styles seem interesting for me. I begin with the lower tech ones.
EPT
