On April 14 2016 20:16 Destruktor wrote: Hi! diamond Zerg here. I'd appreciate any help in ZvP because I don't know what army comp use as standard.
I like to play macro games without do any cheeses or timings, I like to take one base more than my opponent and try to hold his pushes. I used to play roach/ravager/lurker vs Protoss when LotV was released with good results but now Protoss are used to deal with lurkers and they bring some obs with their army or make a push before you could have lurkers. Then I tried with mutas but they are only usefull if your opponent don't see your spiral.
Ling/roach/ravager loose vs zealot/inmortal/stalker push or maybe I'm too greedy. Any ideas? Thanks
If you are going to macro, try fast tech into broodlords after lurkers and hope they get out before he hits his own timing.
I encountered a 3 rax reaper opener today, something I wasn't prepared for at all. I tried my best, but I lost eventually. It put me behind in eco, and even though he took a late natural, I was behind in eco by this time. I opened pool first, as I encounter cheese play on that map, but I was still behind. (went for 3 roaches first, but I guess I should have switched to lings the moment I scouted it)
How would you recommend defending vs a 3 rax reaper build order, and how can I scout it as fast as possible?
On April 15 2016 11:57 bulya wrote: I encountered a 3 rax reaper opener today, something I wasn't prepared for at all. I tried my best, but I lost eventually. It put me behind in eco, and even though he took a late natural, I was behind in eco by this time. I opened pool first, as I encounter cheese play on that map, but I was still behind. (went for 3 roaches first, but I guess I should have switched to lings the moment I scouted it)
How would you recommend defending vs a 3 rax reaper build order, and how can I scout it as fast as possible?
It's hard to kill the reapers before speedlings and if they make enough of them its hard to kill them even after you get speed so here's some tricks.
Get burrow as soon as you can. It is especially good for your roaches since the grenades will eat away at them. With burrow you can heal up and actually push across the map with a group of roaches without losing them to mass grenade micro. This will force the terran to stop reapers and transition.
If you didn't start with speedlings get it started after burrow starts.
Don't just spam speedlings early on if you can help it. You have to get to a stable point. A critical amount of reapers can kill a shit ton of speedlings with grenades. Stabilize with either enough queens or roaches to repel the reapers. Once you do that you need to get 16ish drones at your natural. The terran's plan is always to take a natural and transition into bio so you don't wanna get behind here. Once you have achieved this if burrow is done and speed is done you probably have a good timing to put on some pressure or you can take your third.
Connecting your bases with creep is pretty important so your roaches and queens are faster.
Don't run your speedlings over grenades. Move them back when he places them. And don't fight near an edge they can use against you unless you have to.
On April 19 2016 14:33 cabal] wrote: Is 13/12 still used in zvz? seems like 14/14 has somehow become more popular again. why?
Players trend toward greedier play over time as they learn ways to defend against the more common early timings. I would still consider 14/14 in zvz to be conservative but at certain ranks its probably common place and certainly a very safe play.
How is my low level scrubby self supposed to deal with mass phoenix? It feels like they can just do nothing but build phoenix and a few adepts and there's just nothing you can do against it.
On April 21 2016 07:01 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: How is my low level scrubby self supposed to deal with mass phoenix? It feels like they can just do nothing but build phoenix and a few adepts and there's just nothing you can do against it.
How do you usually cope with the mines ? I'm master in Europe server, and I've a lot of troubles against terrans who go mines, but surprisingly not against anything else (beside mech obv). I've tried to make some ravagers to bile the shit out of them and sometimes that works but only in the beginning, after that they get aware of the biles and quickly place them somewhere else. Keep in mind I've my banes hotkeyed on another hotkey so that I can better control them agianst marines and not suicide them against useless units, but I've a hard time against mines because I'm not used to drag box a few units to kill them... I just lost a ZvT where I killed 20 scv in the first 5 minutes... While not losing a single drone (yes I poorly played this one, with very late third, almost no upgrades, yadda yadda but still, we're talking about 20 scv...)
TL;DR : how do you usually kills the mines with no mutas and a few marines protecting them ?
You just trigger them with a few units then kill them with your army with overseer With zerglings try to make friendly fire. With roach just take a concave, 1 wm shot doesn't kill a roach, just avoid the splash.
You can also detonate banelings on top of wm (you need 3 bane to kill wm) so use it when the other don't split his wm.
I remember i've met someone making mass wm + vikings to shoot overseer, but he ragequit when he saw i could kill wm just with banelings without detection lol.
What in the holy mother of God do you do against mass mass widow mines?
Just lost a game where a guy had a failed proxy rax and all he did was take 3 bases behind MASS widow mines, we are talking like 9+ factories double pumping them on 3 bases.
Broodlords were totally useless, all the mines do is move underneath them, Ultralisks seemed to be mildly effective but still, 35+ widow mines bursts them down instantly. And to top it off, Blinding Cloud doesn't effect them which is completely ludicrous, a 200 gas Hive unit utterly useless against them along with all other Hive tech units.
Has anyone dealt with that before? Its impossible to face head on, I already had 2/2 Roaches/Hydralisk out by the time the mine parade started, for every Mine killed by the Hydras a mine shot takes down 3+ Hydralisks with it.
What the hell can even be done against this? Mass Lurkers?
On April 24 2016 02:43 Beelzebub1 wrote: What in the holy mother of God do you do against mass mass widow mines?
Just lost a game where a guy had a failed proxy rax and all he did was take 3 bases behind MASS widow mines, we are talking like 9+ factories double pumping them on 3 bases.
Broodlords were totally useless, all the mines do is move underneath them, Ultralisks seemed to be mildly effective but still, 35+ widow mines bursts them down instantly. And to top it off, Blinding Cloud doesn't effect them which is completely ludicrous, a 200 gas Hive unit utterly useless against them along with all other Hive tech units.
Has anyone dealt with that before? Its impossible to face head on, I already had 2/2 Roaches/Hydralisk out by the time the mine parade started, for every Mine killed by the Hydras a mine shot takes down 3+ Hydralisks with it.
What the hell can even be done against this? Mass Lurkers?
burrowed infestors with mass IT are actually supposed to be decent vs that
On April 24 2016 02:43 Beelzebub1 wrote: What in the holy mother of God do you do against mass mass widow mines?
Just lost a game where a guy had a failed proxy rax and all he did was take 3 bases behind MASS widow mines, we are talking like 9+ factories double pumping them on 3 bases.
Broodlords were totally useless, all the mines do is move underneath them, Ultralisks seemed to be mildly effective but still, 35+ widow mines bursts them down instantly. And to top it off, Blinding Cloud doesn't effect them which is completely ludicrous, a 200 gas Hive unit utterly useless against them along with all other Hive tech units.
Has anyone dealt with that before? Its impossible to face head on, I already had 2/2 Roaches/Hydralisk out by the time the mine parade started, for every Mine killed by the Hydras a mine shot takes down 3+ Hydralisks with it.
What the hell can even be done against this? Mass Lurkers?
9 factories? You should probably just get nydus and kill him. I mean he can't have his mines everywhere and if he spreads them out they'll be pretty ineffective. You could get burrow and movement too but you probably won't need it just nydus as soon as its up in a few different spots. Make sure you have detection there. If he turtles super hard get some ravangers.
I've lately been in a slump and I find myself tilting in mostly ZvT. Where consistent pressure builds seem to always, and I mean always, get me. The most frustrating thing is that I feel that even when I get ahead I still lose and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. When Terran plays more passively and I can get to ultra/bane/corruptor I feel I can usually win but if they keep up the pressure, keeping me on muta/bane or hitting while I transition to ultra I get crushed.
On April 24 2016 02:43 Beelzebub1 wrote: What in the holy mother of God do you do against mass mass widow mines?
Just lost a game where a guy had a failed proxy rax and all he did was take 3 bases behind MASS widow mines, we are talking like 9+ factories double pumping them on 3 bases.
Broodlords were totally useless, all the mines do is move underneath them, Ultralisks seemed to be mildly effective but still, 35+ widow mines bursts them down instantly. And to top it off, Blinding Cloud doesn't effect them which is completely ludicrous, a 200 gas Hive unit utterly useless against them along with all other Hive tech units.
Has anyone dealt with that before? Its impossible to face head on, I already had 2/2 Roaches/Hydralisk out by the time the mine parade started, for every Mine killed by the Hydras a mine shot takes down 3+ Hydralisks with it.
What the hell can even be done against this? Mass Lurkers?
9 factories? You should probably just get nydus and kill him. I mean he can't have his mines everywhere and if he spreads them out they'll be pretty ineffective. You could get burrow and movement too but you probably won't need it just nydus as soon as its up in a few different spots. Make sure you have detection there. If he turtles super hard get some ravangers.
Hydras with the range upgrade should outrange the mines, so if you have detection you should be killing all of them with the hydras without losing a single one. Did a quick unit-tester run and I'm guessing he advanced the mines into your hydras? That seemed to actually work better then expceted for the terran. I'm guessing a combo of hydra ultra would be best, with the ultras there to keep the mines from running into your hydras. You then need to micro the hydra/overseer back whenever the mines move forward then come back with the detection tied to the hydras for the clean up. Obviously sending the overseer in first ends very poorly :-)
Another option should be broodlord infestor with fungal thrown on advancing mines. that should do the trick and be much easier and a more proven composition.
On April 24 2016 02:43 Beelzebub1 wrote: What in the holy mother of God do you do against mass mass widow mines?
Just lost a game where a guy had a failed proxy rax and all he did was take 3 bases behind MASS widow mines, we are talking like 9+ factories double pumping them on 3 bases.
Broodlords were totally useless, all the mines do is move underneath them, Ultralisks seemed to be mildly effective but still, 35+ widow mines bursts them down instantly. And to top it off, Blinding Cloud doesn't effect them which is completely ludicrous, a 200 gas Hive unit utterly useless against them along with all other Hive tech units.
Has anyone dealt with that before? Its impossible to face head on, I already had 2/2 Roaches/Hydralisk out by the time the mine parade started, for every Mine killed by the Hydras a mine shot takes down 3+ Hydralisks with it.
What the hell can even be done against this? Mass Lurkers?
9 factories? You should probably just get nydus and kill him. I mean he can't have his mines everywhere and if he spreads them out they'll be pretty ineffective. You could get burrow and movement too but you probably won't need it just nydus as soon as its up in a few different spots. Make sure you have detection there. If he turtles super hard get some ravangers.
Hydras with the range upgrade should outrange the mines, so if you have detection you should be killing all of them with the hydras without losing a single one.
In my opinion hydras aren't a good idea. They are so expensive and so frail. And all the terran has to do is make a siege tank or two and it ruins your day. I'd much prefer to spend the gas on ravangers so I can bile the mines and tanks. Ravanger range is also more than widow mine range and they don't need an upgrade.
On April 24 2016 07:46 IcemanAsi wrote: I've lately been in a slump and I find myself tilting in mostly ZvT. Where consistent pressure builds seem to always, and I mean always, get me. The most frustrating thing is that I feel that even when I get ahead I still lose and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. When Terran plays more passively and I can get to ultra/bane/corruptor I feel I can usually win but if they keep up the pressure, keeping me on muta/bane or hitting while I transition to ultra I get crushed.
Would love to hear any tips on what I'm doing wrong.
First replay: Prioritize getting your third down faster so you have larva later on in the game. Make sure you have 16 drones mining minerals at each base. I see you starving for minerals and larva here while trying to go fast mutas. Which in turn is slowing down everything else you're trying to do. And the mutas really didn't hurt the terran much even though you rushed them out. The terran only had one turret but still managed to walk all his marines and a tank to your base without losing anything. Be active with your mutas on the map. Make them pay for themselves. 10 minutes into the game you still had not started mining gas at your third. You could be on hive tech at this point. I wouldn't recommend taking that fourth base position under the ledge there against terran. Better creep spread is definitely needed. Get at least one queen for it.
I realize a lot of this is mechanics but at the very least pay closer attention to your economy. Fix your build order so that you are either doing heavy damage with your mutas early on or getting them a bit later in favor of a faster third and more time mining minerals so you can macro properly later on.
Second Replay: Better creep spread, Mutas actually did a lot of damage. But your economic progression grinded to a halt while you were muta harrassing. You should have ended up ahead of the terran at the end of that but instead you were about even maybe slightly ahead. But you really ended up dying because you didn't have enough ling/bane. Mutas aren't all that great in a direct engagement. You had a lot of mutas and not much of anything else. You were missing a lot of injects so maybe that was the problem. But when you're in that situation where you have nothing but muta/ling bane and the terran is pushing just be spamming injects and building ling/bane. Bring mutas around behind to snipe tanks or reinforcements. Bring your queens forward once they have used up all their energy on inject to help if you need to. A move the zerglings and target the banelings onto marines. If you can get the siege tanks to fire off their first volley on a lone zergling before engaging that is great.
On April 24 2016 07:46 IcemanAsi wrote: I've lately been in a slump and I find myself tilting in mostly ZvT. Where consistent pressure builds seem to always, and I mean always, get me. The most frustrating thing is that I feel that even when I get ahead I still lose and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. When Terran plays more passively and I can get to ultra/bane/corruptor I feel I can usually win but if they keep up the pressure, keeping me on muta/bane or hitting while I transition to ultra I get crushed.
Would love to hear any tips on what I'm doing wrong.
First replay: Prioritize getting your third down faster so you have larva later on in the game. Make sure you have 16 drones mining minerals at each base. I see you starving for minerals and larva here while trying to go fast mutas. Which in turn is slowing down everything else you're trying to do. And the mutas really didn't hurt the terran much even though you rushed them out. The terran only had one turret but still managed to walk all his marines and a tank to your base without losing anything. Be active with your mutas on the map. Make them pay for themselves. 10 minutes into the game you still had not started mining gas at your third. You could be on hive tech at this point. I wouldn't recommend taking that fourth base position under the ledge there against terran. Better creep spread is definitely needed. Get at least one queen for it.
I realize a lot of this is mechanics but at the very least pay closer attention to your economy. Fix your build order so that you are either doing heavy damage with your mutas early on or getting them a bit later in favor of a faster third and more time mining minerals so you can macro properly later on.
Second Replay: Better creep spread, Mutas actually did a lot of damage. But your economic progression grinded to a halt while you were muta harrassing. You should have ended up ahead of the terran at the end of that but instead you were about even maybe slightly ahead. But you really ended up dying because you didn't have enough ling/bane. Mutas aren't all that great in a direct engagement. You had a lot of mutas and not much of anything else. You were missing a lot of injects so maybe that was the problem. But when you're in that situation where you have nothing but muta/ling bane and the terran is pushing just be spamming injects and building ling/bane. Bring mutas around behind to snipe tanks or reinforcements. Bring your queens forward once they have used up all their energy on inject to help if you need to. A move the zerglings and target the banelings onto marines. If you can get the siege tanks to fire off their first volley on a lone zergling before engaging that is great.
Good Luck
Can't argue with your overall analysis, my problem is I can't figure why some times my style works and other end up a wash. I agree that my mechanics suffer greatly against this specific style, I'm guessing a major issue is prioritizing injects even when under pressure. Perhaps that's the variable I've been missing.
In regards to over making Mutas, that's a very interesting point, I've always tried to get as many mutas as possible, what would you recommend as the magic number against the constant pressure style?
EPT
