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On April 04 2016 13:28 maximus_0 wrote:
i really need help with everything relating to zvz, how to scout all ins, when to transition, how to play from behind, etc. anybody got tips, videos, or threads they could point me to in order to better understand it?
I usually scout with my 14th drone, If I see his spawning pool finished without expa I make defenses and banes asap, else I make drones and scout again with my first couple of lings, if I see more than 4 lings I make banes, else I drone up and scout 1 minute later while I make roachwarren, If I see lots of lings I make banes and roaches, If I see many roaches I make them too, If I see heavy droning and third base I play macro too. Last thing, I play roach lurker in ZvZ. If my opponent plays mutas I make many drones and static defenses, then I make roaches/hidras.
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On April 04 2016 13:28 maximus_0 wrote:
i really need help with everything relating to zvz, how to scout all ins, when to transition, how to play from behind, etc. anybody got tips, videos, or threads they could point me to in order to better understand it?
What I always do in zvz is hover my first scouting overlord over their ramp to see what goes down. If I only see drones, I drone myself...if i see lings going down the ramp I make lings myself etc...and if I dont see anything I will expect a lingflood and make safetybanes etc. I feel like most zergs dont hover the ramp, and pay enough attention to the overlord there...it has won me very many zvz`s.
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Hey,
What are these imba builds protoss are complaining about?
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On April 05 2016 02:23 InfCereal wrote:
Hey,
What are these imba builds protoss are complaining about?
Basically any builds that involve lurkers. And drops lings early in the beginning of the game.
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On April 05 2016 02:23 InfCereal wrote:
Hey,
What are these imba builds protoss are complaining about?
This is seriously my question
Between Stargate into Adept or greedy play into Adept/Immortal to Warp Prism drops popping 2 immortals and then warping 8 Adepts into your main I'm really confused by this "Protoss is so underpowered vs. Zerg zomfg David plz buff us" considering Lurkers get fucking demolished by Immortal compositions so even surviving until the mid game means as a Protoss you just sat back applied zero pressure and prayed the Zerg let you get to 200/200 unmolested.
I need some dirty ZvP all ins macro games are so insanely frustrating vs Protoss right now it's ridiculous.
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On April 06 2016 05:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 02:23 InfCereal wrote:
Hey,
What are these imba builds protoss are complaining about? This is seriously my question Between Stargate into Adept or greedy play into Adept/Immortal to Warp Prism drops popping 2 immortals and then warping 8 Adepts into your main I'm really confused by this "Protoss is so underpowered vs. Zerg zomfg David plz buff us" considering Lurkers get fucking demolished by Immortal compositions so even surviving until the mid game means as a Protoss you just sat back applied zero pressure and prayed the Zerg let you get to 200/200 unmolested. I need some dirty ZvP all ins macro games are so insanely frustrating vs Protoss right now it's ridiculous.
Yeah, that's why I'm asking.
I'm busy getting run over by protoss, I want some of these dirty dirty builds.
Ravagers are getting nerfed, so I expected someone to post a ravager timing or something.
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That's weird. Most of the zerg wins in macro games are mostly because of lurker units. Unless you didn't defend successfully their non 2-base pushes, which tbh are far easier to defend.
Basically, when you have an overseer, hydras and lurkers, you're giving the protoss a very hard time. And it's worse when you focus the observers with your hydras.
My ZvP's problems are mostly because of my lack of drones count and scout.
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good protoss are making mass immortal archon and using revelation for detection which is quite good against lurkers in an even game, and after that they go to skytoss. it's not that lurkers are ineffective but they're not a lategame checkmate unit like swarm hosts used to be
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Germany3634 Posts
Are there any up-to-date resources on builds? The one in the OP seem to be outdated.
I have some builds myself, but would love to see if there's room for improvement.
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New Zerg player here, can anybody explain to me the basics of gas timing? When to start mining gas, when to pull, when to add additional geysers, if you do it all at once on multiple bases or stutter extractor creation, etc? I'm not looking for a super-extensive guide, but just want to know the basics and what a good player's mindset should be when deciding how to allocate these resources?
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You almost always want to get 100 gas early in order to get metabolic boost. You usually want to build the extractor before the pool, and then throw down the pool when the extractor is about 70% completed (the 17h-18g-18p (standard hatch first opening) and 14g-14p ("14/14" aggressive opener) are two examples of this). If you throw 3 guys into gas immediately, you are going to get 100 gas right when the pool finishes. After you start zergling speed you have a choice to make. In ZvT and ZvP you're usually going to pull two drones, leaving one worker in gas just in case you see a weird all-in and need a baneling nest. Alternatively (if it's ZvZ or it's ZvT and you want to go two base muta) you can leave two guys in gas and go for a quick lair/baneling nest. Sometimes pro's will take all three off gas after ling speed. This is okay of you know the tendencies of your opponent, or if it's a big map and you feel safe holding any kind of aggression with pure lings/queens. Whenever I take three drones off gas I usually throw down a spine at my natural, but that's up to preference.
(If you want to be really funky and go for something like quick burrow in order to deny the opponents expansion, you'll want to leave all three in gas. Don't recommend this for the most part.)
After this, you want to drone up and scout the opponents base. You'll have different responeses and different gas timings depending on what you scout, so it's very hard to generalize what to do past this point. I'll try my best though.
For the most part you want to get three guys back on gas, throw down a roach warren and build another extractor at 3:30. If you delay the roaches you want to delay the second extractor, but the "first" extractor is almost always filled at 3:30 no matter what.
If you're doing two base muta you'll want to get a lair asap when you get 100 gas again. Once the lair finishes, throw down the spire (you should have approximately 200 gas) and two extractors right away. If you spend gas on anything else while the lair is building (banelings or overlord speed or something) you want to throw down the third extractor 20-30 seconds earlier.
For the mid- and late game, it's important to remember that you never want more gas than you can spend. For every gas you mine you delay your mineral income, and you'd much rather float 200 minerals than 200 gas. A good rule of thumb is to never build extractors at a base until you have full saturation on the minerals at that base.
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On April 06 2016 22:25 KeksX wrote:
Are there any up-to-date resources on builds? The one in the OP seem to be outdated.
I have some builds myself, but would love to see if there's room for improvement.
Agree with this, the ZvT build looks fine as the metagame has remained almost identical to release, more so just Terrans cleaning up their builds to deal with stronger Zerg late game but the ZvP section looks kind of...bland? No all in builds with the prevalence of greedy 3 Nexus play?
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On April 06 2016 05:50 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2016 02:23 InfCereal wrote:
Hey,
What are these imba builds protoss are complaining about? This is seriously my question Between Stargate into Adept or greedy play into Adept/Immortal to Warp Prism drops popping 2 immortals and then warping 8 Adepts into your main I'm really confused by this "Protoss is so underpowered vs. Zerg zomfg David plz buff us" considering Lurkers get fucking demolished by Immortal compositions so even surviving until the mid game means as a Protoss you just sat back applied zero pressure and prayed the Zerg let you get to 200/200 unmolested. I need some dirty ZvP all ins macro games are so insanely frustrating vs Protoss right now it's ridiculous.
It's hard to sum up an entire matchup so I won't try but I can point out a few of the pivotal points. With lurkers it's all in how you use them. The ideal situation for the protoss is during the fight his immortals all attack your lurkers while simultaneously absorbing the lurker damage with their barrier active. And his zealots soak damage from the hydras. This should not happen! There are numerous things that will prevent this. All you have to do is do one or two of them and you should win the fight.
Any large amount of units directly on top of the lurkers makes it difficult or impossible for the protoss to click on the lurkers. Don't fall back past your lurkers.
Banelings take out zealots so fast that they don't soak any hydra hits allowing the hydras to destroy the immortals.
Zerglings are on top of the immortals trapping them so they cannot advance or retreat.
Hydras manually target phoenixes that are lifting your lurkers.
Any one of these things or a combination of them can win you a fight against protoss very convincingly. If you're having a problem with protoss in the early game it's because your timing for roach warren isn't correct or you are not building enough roach/ravanger/ling in response to a gateway timing. Two base timings are common on some of the new maps and you need to know what you're facing right away to defend it. Overlord speed is helpful.
Many zergs make to many spores in response to stargate or make the spores at the wrong time. Timing is everything. Early in the game your economy is still growing and putting down 300 to 400 minerals worth of spores (add drone cost too) is a huge hit to your growth. When your next inject pops instead of making a bunch of drones you will have to wait as your economy has slowed down greatly. This combined with the fact that phoenix get kills anyways from the edge of your mineral line and only take shield damage doing so makes it kinda bad to respond to a few phoenix this way early on. Instead you can just let them run out of energy while replacing drones that get killed. Now I'm not saying don't build spores once your economy is running or don't build spores if he has 6+ phoenix, I'm just saying consider the cost before doing it. You might be able to wait. I consider building them when my queens could be easily sniped. They usually go for drones first and run out of energy. But on the next pass they have enough to do real damage. You should be at 72 drones by then or close.
Basically you can do more damage to yourself responding drastically to a stargate than the protoss actually does to you.
A fourth base mining gas only is a protoss killer. You can make soooo many lurkers and hydras with that extra gas. So getting this up during or before your main push is really important.
When you're in the late game. Consider leaving lurkers and setting up spines in your outer bases. The most common move for protoss is attack an expansion while warping zealots elsewhere. It's simple and very effective but shouldn't work if you are prepared. In your main you can leave a small group of hydras to kill warp prisms. You have to pay attention though. When you get attacked also look for his warp prisms don't let the attack distract you.
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On April 03 2016 10:42 Terence Chill wrote:
3. Whats the standard 3rd base timing? Like right now, i do smth like 2 base 3 gas lair evo roach warren with some ravagers and stuff into 3rd base but i dont know whats the meta.
Here is when i normally take my 3rd.
ZvZ: on 32 supply, when being aggressive before moving out to pressure with ling/bane off 1gas. OR on ~44 supply when being defensive ling/bane + 1 extra defensive queen before 3rd.
ZvT: on 32 supply just after first reaper arrives at my base and is busy skirmishing with my first 6 lings and 1st queen (sneak the drone down before reaper arrives, so the reaper can't see it moving out and kill it)..
ZvP: Either 3hatch before pool (preferred openeing), or 17 hatch, 18 pool, 18-19 hatch (3rd before first queen and gas).
So in short, you take a 3rd VERY VERY early in LotV. Going lair before 3rd is something I only do if I open 2base muta in ZvT, and then I take a 3rd as soon as a I have the spare minerals after burning larvae and getting my 3rd queen and a spine out. Even in ZvZ you want that 3rd down asap even if you open muta. Going lair before 3rd in any other situation would make me feel as if I was all-in. And I basically never take my second gas until I have a 3rd down (unless 2-base muta).
Sounds like you take your 3rd way too late, which is normal if you are new to LotV. The lava nerf + eco changes + extra production really makes a big difference.
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On March 20 2016 14:20 maximus_0 wrote:
how to counter +1 att ling all in for zvz?
Get comfortable being the ling bane aggressor. There is a big window before that upgrade finishes where you have a 4 baneling advantage. I almost always pressure ling/bane in some way off 1.5 base mineral saturation and a 3rd building and I rarely have problems vs upgraded ling styles.
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On March 11 2016 19:29 schu65 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6525588ya watch that replay and tell me fucking toss is balanced. literally can just go greed and win. All bullshit aside. How do I deal with turtling airtoss like that? Just mass void and phoenix is fucking literally impossible to beat. Ok get vipers? and they get shredded instantly? I guess they would have helped. The issue is he could have just fucking danced around the entire map like whatever.... Honestly, can I have gm or high masters zerg please tell me what the fuck to do here? Before I get bombarded with oh should have scouted blah blah. Thats not the issue I have, that I know where the deficiency is and I can improve. What I need to know is how to you beat turtling skytoss like that, that will avoid your army? Game is a fucking joke.
I just looked at the webpage. It tells me protoss turtled with cannons only too build 20 voidrays and 8 phoenixes in support vs your mutas.
Viper bomb CRUSHES this, litterally melts it in seconds if you use rapid fire. Build 12+ vipers to kill his army, then a-move to victory with broodlords vs his cannons.
You went corruptor hydra muta, none of which is that good vs that army.
Now, if this protoss had known to build carriers instead, then there would have been no such easy answer. vs mass carrier turtle you have to hit timings and harass him. For example an early ultra/ling timing or a sharp hydra/queen timing. If it gets late you have to mass spore get corruptor ultra queen viper w some hydra and pull/bomb stray units, nydus crackling his main when he moves out things like this, but even then it will be uphill.
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i know there's a practice partner thread but i've had no luck in finding zvz partners, anybody willing to practice? diamond+
loon#11502 on na
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Hi! diamond Zerg here. I'd appreciate any help in ZvP because I don't know what army comp use as standard.
I like to play macro games without do any cheeses or timings, I like to take one base more than my opponent and try to hold his pushes. I used to play roach/ravager/lurker vs Protoss when LotV was released with good results but now Protoss are used to deal with lurkers and they bring some obs with their army or make a push before you could have lurkers. Then I tried with mutas but they are only usefull if your opponent don't see your spiral.
Ling/roach/ravager loose vs zealot/inmortal/stalker push or maybe I'm too greedy. Any ideas?
Thanks
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On April 14 2016 20:16 Destruktor wrote:
Hi! diamond Zerg here. I'd appreciate any help in ZvP because I don't know what army comp use as standard.
I like to play macro games without do any cheeses or timings, I like to take one base more than my opponent and try to hold his pushes. I used to play roach/ravager/lurker vs Protoss when LotV was released with good results but now Protoss are used to deal with lurkers and they bring some obs with their army or make a push before you could have lurkers. Then I tried with mutas but they are only usefull if your opponent don't see your spiral.
Ling/roach/ravager loose vs zealot/inmortal/stalker push or maybe I'm too greedy. Any ideas?
Thanks
As Nerchio says very often, Zerg needs to win before 10min mark because if Protoss has too many immortals, game is kinda over.
So start all-ining.
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what am i supposed to do if the terran turtles into liberator ghost viking and plays it like hes avilo? like do i have to have top GM viper infestor control with broodlords and mass spore, or wtf?
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EPT
