EPTYou only really run into problems if you don't cancel your natural in the beginning, or if your opponent builds more than 2 cannons.If he tries to block off your main with cannons, get overlord speed + evo chamber when your pool finishes. Send all your overlords to your main and spam lings. Then go for the ling drop of the century and make him pay for investing in a cannon rush.
The LotV Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 26
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Magmire
16 Posts
You only really run into problems if you don't cancel your natural in the beginning, or if your opponent builds more than 2 cannons.If he tries to block off your main with cannons, get overlord speed + evo chamber when your pool finishes. Send all your overlords to your main and spam lings. Then go for the ling drop of the century and make him pay for investing in a cannon rush. | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
On March 22 2016 00:24 IcemanAsi wrote: Not a huge fan of drone scouting a Protoss so I just send a drone down to check the natural at ~ 1:00 That's ok, but I decided to drone scout after lost against a lot of proxys/cheeses. I think the information of your scout is more valuable than the minerals it can mine. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
On March 22 2016 16:35 Destruktor wrote: That's ok, but I decided to drone scout after lost against a lot of proxys/cheeses. I think the information of your scout is more valuable than the minerals it can mine. Drone scounting is completely acceptable. The small loss on minerals can also be made up by forcing you opponent to micro probes by annoying mineral lines/harrassing workers. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On March 23 2016 04:25 ThePastor wrote: Drone scounting is completely acceptable. The small loss on minerals can also be made up by forcing you opponent to micro probes by annoying mineral lines/harrassing workers. Yeah, there's absolutely no shame in drone scouting. It helps a lot to know what your opponent is doing and react accordingly. Not to mention those proxy gates. I'm quite surprised the zerg above is doing like pool at 18 or 19 supply, the way I understand it, he's doing a lot of drones and a strict minimum of zerglings until the protoss move out. I do it sometimes, but there's simply no way to defend a proxy double gates on ladder. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On March 23 2016 04:25 ThePastor wrote: Drone scounting is completely acceptable. The small loss on minerals can also be made up by forcing you opponent to micro probes by annoying mineral lines/harrassing workers. I want to argue against drone scouting here. My reason for not doing it is because over 50% of the time my opponent is playing a standard opener and I scout nothing noteworthy. I voluntarily give my opponent a lead by doing this. Perhaps this is fine if he's playing standard because its probably only 100 minerals. But what if he's greedy and I can't punish it because I'm already behind? This information will be scouted a minute later by an overlord or zergling anyways. Drone scout may be fine if you believe you are better than your opponent and don't want to get cheesed out, but it doesn't seem wise in a close match. So in order to optimize this you have to be super greedy when you drone scout. Which basically means three hatch before pool with queen defense. I dislike this style of play because its a very defensive style. Playing a standard hatch gas pool with a bit of good micro will defend against most cheeses. If your micro is good I suggest keeping your drones at home. If it's zvz baneling nest before speed works really well against 12 pool. With that said I do favor overlord speed. At around four minutes into the game overlord speed basically gives you full map vision anywhere you want to go. I think the information you gather at this timing is far more valuable than anything you get in the first 2 minutes. And one final note if you're not already doing this please put a zergling in front of the opponents exit ramp and keep one there throughout the game. Many zerg lives will be saved. | ||
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ThePastor
New Zealand380 Posts
I am not saying that this is the optimal build, I think not drone scouting is optimal, but given that I am only at a diamond/masters MMR that small mineral loss will not actually affect the outcome of the game. The reason I say that is that people below top 200 GM (?) do not have perfect macro if they do not have perfect macro then losing a few minerals to have the confidence to drone as I please is totally a trade I am happy to take. This is a topic that we have discussed in many of the 'zerg help me threads' and I know it is something that a lot of zergs disagree on. I think it is a matter or preference in play style and also, what you want to achieve. | ||
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AbouSV
Germany1278 Posts
On March 23 2016 08:13 ThePastor wrote: My main reason for doing drone scouting was that I got cannoned/proxied a bunch of times in a row and lost the plot. I drone scout if I see a greedy toss I out do his greed. If I see cheese I can defend it and counter it easily. I am not saying that this is the optimal build, I think not drone scouting is optimal, but given that I am only at a diamond/masters MMR that small mineral loss will not actually affect the outcome of the game. The reason I say that is that people below top 200 GM (?) do not have perfect macro if they do not have perfect macro then losing a few minerals to have the confidence to drone as I please is totally a trade I am happy to take. This is a topic that we have discussed in many of the 'zerg help me threads' and I know it is something that a lot of zergs disagree on. I think it is a matter or preference in play style and also, what you want to achieve. The part where you can confidently drone as much as you want is very important. I have lost (and still lose) countless games because I don't drone enough at some key points due to lack of information, so I 'just wait a little bit to get the info', but by then I'm already floating to much minerals (the first two injects being key points). | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On March 23 2016 07:27 ManiacTheZealot wrote: I want to argue against drone scouting here. My reason for not doing it is because over 50% of the time my opponent is playing a standard opener and I scout nothing noteworthy. I voluntarily give my opponent a lead by doing this. Perhaps this is fine if he's playing standard because its probably only 100 minerals. But what if he's greedy and I can't punish it because I'm already behind? This information will be scouted a minute later by an overlord or zergling anyways. Drone scout may be fine if you believe you are better than your opponent and don't want to get cheesed out, but it doesn't seem wise in a close match. So in order to optimize this you have to be super greedy when you drone scout. Which basically means three hatch before pool with queen defense. I dislike this style of play because its a very defensive style. Playing a standard hatch gas pool with a bit of good micro will defend against most cheeses. If your micro is good I suggest keeping your drones at home. While it may be true that you're losing 100 minerals (possibly more) you have to take into account we're not longer in HotS. What I mean is the 100 minerals you lose can quickly get earned back, like 10 sec at worst in the beginning of the game (and I emphasize the word at worst). And it is hardly game breaking. | ||
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Destruktor
Spain60 Posts
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
If they get the pylon contain I just lose, any tips? I've been scouting it pretty much when it starts and I pull almost all drones but he sends like 3-4 probes and I can't stop everything from going down. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On March 24 2016 21:46 IcemanAsi wrote: seeing massive investment cannon rushes today, with a 3 pylon block on top of the ramp in small ramp to main base while also cannon rushing behind mineral lines. If they get the pylon contain I just lose, any tips? I've been scouting it pretty much when it starts and I pull almost all drones but he sends like 3-4 probes and I can't stop everything from going down. 1 base nydus, HotS style? | ||
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TotalNoob42
3 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15919 Posts
On March 25 2016 01:19 TotalNoob42 wrote: What is the best response in ZvZ to early Spine and some lings in my main? Three drones on the morphing spine and one after the enemy drone? if the spine is already morphing there isn't a drone anymore.. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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TotalNoob42
3 Posts
On March 25 2016 03:24 Charoisaur wrote: if the spine is already morphing there isn't a drone anymore.. I mean: Three drones if the enemy drone is morphing to a spine and one drone if it is cancelled and moving around as a drone again? | ||
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Magmire
16 Posts
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
With prottoss the two things I'm very vulnerable against is airtoss and early pushes. I can't decide which build should I go, as early pushes require some safety which will make me late vs airtoss, and otherwise I get smashed by early pushes. I started drone scouting so that I'll know what is coming at me, but I'm not that good at reading prottoss. 2 gateways before cybercore will make me prepare for an early agrression, and an early nexus will make me put a third much faster, but there are many options there which I'm not aware of. | ||
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ManiacTheZealot
United States490 Posts
On March 26 2016 06:08 bulya wrote: How do you decide your build vs prottoss? With prottoss the two things I'm very vulnerable against is airtoss and early pushes. I can't decide which build should I go, as early pushes require some safety which will make me late vs airtoss, and otherwise I get smashed by early pushes. I started drone scouting so that I'll know what is coming at me, but I'm not that good at reading prottoss. 2 gateways before cybercore will make me prepare for an early agrression, and an early nexus will make me put a third much faster, but there are many options there which I'm not aware of. You want to scout their base at around 4 minutes, then again at 5:30 to 6 minutes and watch for when their third starts. There maybe some attacks before 4 minutes but it will likely only be adept harassment. At four minutes you're looking for a stargate. If he has one stargate its likely to be oracle or moderate phoenix harrass. This is often combined with quite a few adepts. At 5:30 to 6 you're looking for gateways and any units he's built. If he has a lot of gateways it's probably a gateway timing. If its two stargates its obviously heavy air. You should try to find out if its turtle air or not though. Cannons are an indication of turtle air. If there's a twilight council it could be blink or adept attack speed. Most often its attack speed. Sometimes it can be DT's though so look for a dark shrine. Keep watching for the third. If the protoss is not taking it then it's a gateway timing. As the zerg you want to hit 3 base saturation by 5:30 on gas and minerals so you can transition smoothly to your lair tech. Gateway timings most often hit around 6 minutes. In fact most early timings for all races hit between 5:30 and 6 minutes so that is a good time to be hyper aware of what your opponent is doing. You may not finish your third base saturation if he's attacking at this point so be sure to watch his ramp and know when he's moving out. Your lair tech will most likely be some combination of hydras and lurkers depending on how air heavy the protoss is. Prior to lair tech you want to rely on roach/zergling and ravangers. Get your third hatch down between 30 and 36 supply. Between 3:30 and 4 minutes get a roach warren and decide if you want zergling speed. Only build roaches to defend adepts. Go for roach/ravenger/ling against gateway timings. If the protoss is going air or taking his third don't make anything and go straight for hydras and lurkers after 3 base saturation. Defend with spores and queens. Make a double evo at around 5 minutes if its safe to do so. Get your hive going as soon as you get your lurkers morphed. Make sure your 4th base is running gas only by the time you start building hydras and lurkers and do not forget to keep transferring drones there when the patches run out in your other base. That should set you up pretty well against protoss. A note on gas timings. I recommend never getting gas at a base that has fewer than 20 to 24 drones at it. I say this because your mineral mining drops off steeply when you build gases and switch 6 drones to gas at that base. When you're trying to saturate all your bases you need that mineral mining to stay steady. In addition to this if you got gas early for zergling speed or overlord speed you must take those drones off gas when you have 100 or your mineral mining will grow much slower. More minerals equals more drones equals more minerals. There are some muta builds and I guess nydus builds that sacrifice minerals for gas but those are the exception. Keep that in mind if you want to hit all your timings. Take a look at your Resource collection rate graph and make sure it looks good. In a normal game where you don't lose a lot of drones your collection rate should climb to 2500ish by around 350 elapsed game time and stay flat for the rest of the the game. If it doesn't climb that quickly look at how you're growing your mineral economy or if it doesn't stay flat look at how you're transferring drones to new bases and rebuilding drones that you use for structures. Obviously it will vary from game to game but in general these are good guidelines for games when your economy remained unmolested by your opponent. On another note if you're getting smashed by early timings you may want to look at how you produce your overlords. It is incredibly easy to get supply capped while trying to make roach/ravanger as a spur of the moment defense. You must plan for this. At the start its fine to build an overlord every time one finishes but as soon as you change to roach/ravanger production you need 2 or 3 at a time. And you need to account for this prior to building those roaches. If you have extra minerals build extra overlords too. You can keep your mineral to gas ratio at 2 to 1 or even 1 to 1 when building roach ravanger. | ||
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TheGrandFandangler
6 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On March 27 2016 23:06 TheGrandFandangler wrote: When you are being agressive as zerg is it sometimes a good idea to stay supply blocked so when you lose units you can replenish those units with the minerals you wouldve otherwise spent on overlords? usually (not always) when you're being aggressive under 200 supply as zerg your goal is to win the game. once zerg stops droning and starts being aggressive it's very hard to go back to economy and macro. your idea makes a sort of vague sense, but honestly if you lose a bunch of supply doing a timing you probably lost the game but yeah, i guess so? if you're doing an all-in and you trade out units and think you can win with a second attack then yeah i suppose you can save minerals on overlords because of lost units. but that's not really much of a strategy | ||
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