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On March 09 2016 20:35 therealkillemall wrote:Show nested quote +
I usually make roach/hydra/lurker vs P and it's fine for mid game but when my opponent goes for a death ball of inmortal, archon, disruptor I don't know what Tier 3 unit add to my army. Ultras fall vs inmortals and BL aren't viable. Any advice?
I think bulya gave you good advice. Why do you say that broodlords aren't viable? Sounds like the perfect counter to archon-immortal-disruptor. If you dont have BL in time, make sure to have vipers to use abduct on disruptors . Have also a spire ready to make a huge muta switch once traded armies. I have way more trouble when facing large phoenix armies. They pin me in 3 or 4 bases for too long completely blind. Is it wise to make non stop queens until the number of phoenix is stabilized? I also get killed pretty often with 3 base chargelot-immortal-archon pushes before lurker-den. What do you do first? Get the hydra upgrade or the lurker den? Thank you all.
If there is a lot of pheonix, get the hydra upgrade first, then lurker den.
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In ZvP, how do you deal with Airtoss (void rays/carrier/mothership)?
I'm trying to go for a queen corruptor combo (with some hydra support), but I still struggle against it (lose most of the time).
Should I just improve my micro with that combo, or should I go for something else?
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On March 10 2016 06:26 bulya wrote:
In ZvP, how do you deal with Airtoss (void rays/carrier/mothership)?
I'm trying to go for a queen corruptor combo (with some hydra support), but I still struggle against it (lose most of the time).
Should I just improve my micro with that combo, or should I go for something else?
I guess a few vipers can help, with parasitic bomb on the small guys and abduct on the big guys.
I remember someone recommended lings for runbys when the fleet is out on the map.
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On March 10 2016 06:26 bulya wrote:
In ZvP, how do you deal with Airtoss (void rays/carrier/mothership)?
I'm trying to go for a queen corruptor combo (with some hydra support), but I still struggle against it (lose most of the time).
Should I just improve my micro with that combo, or should I go for something else?
Forget the hydras, useless.
You should be aiming for Corruptors with 2/2 upgrades and Viper and Queen support.
If the toss is adding Archons or High Templars you want to makes some broodlords to push them back from your corruptors.
Important to remmber the Parasitic Bomb doesn't stack when cast on the same unit so don't throw it all on the mothership, spread it around.
Protect your econ with Double lurker at the most valuable expansions and punish his econ with ling runbys if possible and corruptor spray.
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On March 10 2016 17:40 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 06:26 bulya wrote:
In ZvP, how do you deal with Airtoss (void rays/carrier/mothership)?
I'm trying to go for a queen corruptor combo (with some hydra support), but I still struggle against it (lose most of the time).
Should I just improve my micro with that combo, or should I go for something else? Forget the hydras, useless. You should be aiming for Corruptors with 2/2 upgrades and Viper and Queen support. If the toss is adding Archons or High Templars you want to makes some broodlords to push them back from your corruptors. Important to remmber the Parasitic Bomb doesn't stack when cast on the same unit so don't throw it all on the mothership, spread it around. Protect your econ with Double lurker at the most valuable expansions and punish his econ with ling runbys if possible and corruptor spray.
Thanks, I'll try it out.
Is it worth abducting the mothership for a kill, or should I just have many overseers and snipe the air units as long as the overseers are alive?
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On March 10 2016 19:47 bulya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 17:40 IcemanAsi wrote:On March 10 2016 06:26 bulya wrote:
In ZvP, how do you deal with Airtoss (void rays/carrier/mothership)?
I'm trying to go for a queen corruptor combo (with some hydra support), but I still struggle against it (lose most of the time).
Should I just improve my micro with that combo, or should I go for something else? Forget the hydras, useless. You should be aiming for Corruptors with 2/2 upgrades and Viper and Queen support. If the toss is adding Archons or High Templars you want to makes some broodlords to push them back from your corruptors. Important to remmber the Parasitic Bomb doesn't stack when cast on the same unit so don't throw it all on the mothership, spread it around. Protect your econ with Double lurker at the most valuable expansions and punish his econ with ling runbys if possible and corruptor spray. Thanks, I'll try it out. Is it worth abducting the mothership for a kill, or should I just have many overseers and snipe the air units as long as the overseers are alive?
Yes. But you should have overseers anyway.
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http://ggtracker.com/matches/6525588
ya watch that replay and tell me fucking toss is balanced. literally can just go greed and win. All bullshit aside. How do I deal with turtling airtoss like that? Just mass void and phoenix is fucking literally impossible to beat. Ok get vipers? and they get shredded instantly? I guess they would have helped. The issue is he could have just fucking danced around the entire map like whatever.... Honestly, can I have gm or high masters zerg please tell me what the fuck to do here?
Before I get bombarded with oh should have scouted blah blah. Thats not the issue I have, that I know where the deficiency is and I can improve. What I need to know is how to you beat turtling skytoss like that, that will avoid your army?
Game is a fucking joke.
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On March 10 2016 20:41 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 19:47 bulya wrote:On March 10 2016 17:40 IcemanAsi wrote:On March 10 2016 06:26 bulya wrote:
In ZvP, how do you deal with Airtoss (void rays/carrier/mothership)?
I'm trying to go for a queen corruptor combo (with some hydra support), but I still struggle against it (lose most of the time).
Should I just improve my micro with that combo, or should I go for something else? Forget the hydras, useless. You should be aiming for Corruptors with 2/2 upgrades and Viper and Queen support. If the toss is adding Archons or High Templars you want to makes some broodlords to push them back from your corruptors. Important to remmber the Parasitic Bomb doesn't stack when cast on the same unit so don't throw it all on the mothership, spread it around. Protect your econ with Double lurker at the most valuable expansions and punish his econ with ling runbys if possible and corruptor spray. Thanks, I'll try it out. Is it worth abducting the mothership for a kill, or should I just have many overseers and snipe the air units as long as the overseers are alive? Yes. But you should have overseers anyway.
Actually a very hard counter that most people don't know about is Hydra+Infestor. You fungal the small ships that the carrier spawns and a move with hydras... the fungaled ones will be stuck and the hydras outrange most of them so the small ships won't be able to do any damage, and the carriers just will not have any left almost instantly because hydra DPS is actually pretty good. After that it's ez win cuz its insanely expensive to produce a lot of those in a short amount of time.
I cannot emphasize enough how hard of a counter this is. If you have a full on 200/200 fight vs 3/3 upgraded toss air with 3/3 upgrades hydra/infestor, practically the only way you can lose this engagement is by walking completely underneath the toss air ball so all of the interceptors still do damage.
But in most games it won't get to the point. After you get 6 or so infestors (with mana upgrade of course) and enough hydras you just make a timing push and your opponent won't be able to do anything about it, because usually you will already have higher upgrades than they on the way and their carrier/tempest/void ray count will be pretty low.
You also won't have to switch to air tech, and this comp also completely melts void rays and has no problems dealing with tempests until they get to a very high count (because you have insanely more mobility on the map).
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On January 25 2016 05:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 04:31 Aocowns wrote:
how am i supposed to defend against ranged liberators on some of these maps? i cant figure it out, seems like ravager ability doesnt reach all these little spots and then there are suddenly like 3-4 patches i cant mine off of until i have a spire?
or am i just ridiculously bad against terran, cus that is highly possible with my 40% winrate On those type of maps I am seeing lots of zergs going faster 2 base Muta to counter it. It's the only way to counter it since Spores/ravagers can't reach some of those spots.
Argh. Took a 6 months break, and I've just encountered a terran going Liberator on the map dusk tower. Didn't really know what to do so I went for spire asap... I was kinda late after that.
So another question : providing you can reach those said liberators on the maps, which maps are those ? If so, how do you usually deal with them ?
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On March 11 2016 19:29 schu65 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6525588ya watch that replay and tell me fucking toss is balanced. literally can just go greed and win. All bullshit aside. How do I deal with turtling airtoss like that? Just mass void and phoenix is fucking literally impossible to beat. Ok get vipers? and they get shredded instantly? I guess they would have helped. The issue is he could have just fucking danced around the entire map like whatever.... Honestly, can I have gm or high masters zerg please tell me what the fuck to do here? Before I get bombarded with oh should have scouted blah blah. Thats not the issue I have, that I know where the deficiency is and I can improve. What I need to know is how to you beat turtling skytoss like that, that will avoid your army? Game is a fucking joke.
You gotta go Vipers, it's not really optional. If they're getting "shredded instantly" just work on improving your micro imo.
Another thing to consider is that air toss generally forgoes the ability to hit any sort of midgame timing push vs Zerg. Use that to your advantage and get a big economy lead as soon as you scout what he's doing
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On March 12 2016 07:59 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 05:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 25 2016 04:31 Aocowns wrote:
how am i supposed to defend against ranged liberators on some of these maps? i cant figure it out, seems like ravager ability doesnt reach all these little spots and then there are suddenly like 3-4 patches i cant mine off of until i have a spire?
or am i just ridiculously bad against terran, cus that is highly possible with my 40% winrate On those type of maps I am seeing lots of zergs going faster 2 base Muta to counter it. It's the only way to counter it since Spores/ravagers can't reach some of those spots. Argh. Took a 6 months break, and I've just encountered a terran going Liberator on the map dusk tower. Didn't really know what to do so I went for spire asap... I was kinda late after that. So another question : providing you can reach those said liberators on the maps, which maps are those ? If so, how do you usually deal with them ?
It's honestly just that one map (Dusk towers?). It's free 3 bases, lots of dead air behind the main/natural. Can't remember the name, but that's the only map I have really seen the build. It's not so great on other maps it seems or at least I don't see it used on other maps.
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On March 11 2016 19:29 schu65 wrote:http://ggtracker.com/matches/6525588ya watch that replay and tell me fucking toss is balanced. literally can just go greed and win. All bullshit aside. How do I deal with turtling airtoss like that? Just mass void and phoenix is fucking literally impossible to beat. Ok get vipers? and they get shredded instantly? I guess they would have helped. The issue is he could have just fucking danced around the entire map like whatever.... Honestly, can I have gm or high masters zerg please tell me what the fuck to do here? Before I get bombarded with oh should have scouted blah blah. Thats not the issue I have, that I know where the deficiency is and I can improve. What I need to know is how to you beat turtling skytoss like that, that will avoid your army? Game is a fucking joke.
Vipers are mandatory my friend, if you see then turtle sky mode going on take a greedy 4th and 5th and you'll max out on a huge air doom army while he's at like 174 supply, hit him with wave after wave of heavily upgraded Corruptor fleets (+3 carapace upgrades make them pretty much immune to Interceptor damage, 5 armor for the win son) with cracklings to shrek his pathetic base defenses and punish him for leaving his base with such a noob deathball.
Work on Viper micro, Koreans make it look easy but they are flimsy and at least to me feel like they pop like a balloon.
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if you have five vipers and you hold shift+R+R+R+R+R, keep holding shift and move command them backward after the R's. this way each viper will IMMEDIATELY and QUICKLY retreat by itself as soon as it casts. koreans use shift+move micro A LOT, it's a great way to raise your game. it's also great for things like looking away from your muta micro (focus turret, shift move to dead air, look home and macro)
also i have to agree with the above poster about air carapace. lotv is the expansion of air carapace. if your opponent of any race is going air you want air carapace (carriers, liberators, muta vs muta)
btw yes vipers obliterate mass phoenix. i just played a guy who went mass phoenix, was actually way ahead of me (killing hydras, forcing mass spores), but for some reason he kept making like up to 30 while allowing me to tech vipers. made six vipers, the phoenix just melted to nothing and i destroyed him. if he had transitioned to anything else i was dead
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How do I counter a Prottoss phoenix opener as Zerg?
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I'm just struggling against Protoss right now. The mentioned Airtoss-Turtle style is only one of my issues.
Against Protoss I just started to play insanely passive because of all the stuff he can throw at me throughout the game, which I seem unable to scout for (Stalkers kill Overlords, rest can't get in). And this kind of seems to be my main issue: Either I play insanely passive and save and I'm getting wrecked by aa Airtoss army, or I'm playing less save and I'm getting wrecked by any kind of early push (right now: mainly 2-base-DT's into Zealot/Archon/Stalker follow up. Seems to be really popular in Plat/Dia).
My guess is that I'm playing the entire matchup completely wrong. Starting from the opening. Could someone possibly give me a somewhat decent gameplan for the matchup? With stuff like: When do you build a Roach Warren/when do you upgrade to lair/how do you defend your bases against all kinds of stuff being thrown at you?
Or even some timings when I should send an Overlord into the opponents base to see what's going on. Maybe that's the main problem, because half my ZvP games I'm just guessing what's going on. And if my guess is wrong, I'm just dead. And late game I don't really know how to defend all my bases against mass Zealot/DT warp-ins all over the place. And in the end, an army is marching across the base before I'm able to build up again.
Basically... I have absolutely no clue how to play the matchup. From start to finish. Although I kind of know how the progamers are doing it. Just doesn't seem to work for me, because I don't know the timings properly.
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On March 01 2016 10:46 LyleGately wrote:Does anyone have any advice for holding these proxy 4rax marine builds I've been seeing more of lately? I've seen this 3x in my past 15 ZvTs and haven't held it once. I'm a Platinum/Diamond player. http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/2476383Keep natural. 3x spines & speed and baneling nest. They can walk past my spines to kill the natural. I blow through all my units to kill his marines with banes and but they still has enough to push through. http://sc2replaystats.com/replay/2476507Okay, maybe I have to cancel the natural and build an in-base macro for production. 4x spines. They just contain and get tanks and the game ends up in a silly place. I think next time I'll try keeping the natural (think this is required) and getting a spine over to the natural to defend. Suppose it might matter if the natural is backdoor or not. I'm usually scouting these out early w a drone scout, so it's not a total surprise.
Any luck beating it lately? The only viable option i found is to scout it with 1st overlord (send to 4th base loc on prion/orbital/dusk), usually able to scout it on 1:10 and pull 3-5 drones. Works perfectly for me. Got no idea how to hold it w/o scouting, by the time 5 marines are at my natural i got 4 lings and half built queens (or/and) spines. lol.
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im really new to sc2, is there a general build i should just be spamming in each matchup to start ironing out my macro and to let me focus on stuff like spending larva, resources, spreading creep etc? or should i just try and get that stuff down before i think about what units or strat i should be doing
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On March 14 2016 18:27 Swisslink wrote:
I'm just struggling against Protoss right now. The mentioned Airtoss-Turtle style is only one of my issues.
Against Protoss I just started to play insanely passive because of all the stuff he can throw at me throughout the game, which I seem unable to scout for (Stalkers kill Overlords, rest can't get in). And this kind of seems to be my main issue: Either I play insanely passive and save and I'm getting wrecked by aa Airtoss army, or I'm playing less save and I'm getting wrecked by any kind of early push (right now: mainly 2-base-DT's into Zealot/Archon/Stalker follow up. Seems to be really popular in Plat/Dia).
My guess is that I'm playing the entire matchup completely wrong. Starting from the opening. Could someone possibly give me a somewhat decent gameplan for the matchup? With stuff like: When do you build a Roach Warren/when do you upgrade to lair/how do you defend your bases against all kinds of stuff being thrown at you?
Or even some timings when I should send an Overlord into the opponents base to see what's going on. Maybe that's the main problem, because half my ZvP games I'm just guessing what's going on. And if my guess is wrong, I'm just dead. And late game I don't really know how to defend all my bases against mass Zealot/DT warp-ins all over the place. And in the end, an army is marching across the base before I'm able to build up again.
Basically... I have absolutely no clue how to play the matchup. From start to finish. Although I kind of know how the progamers are doing it. Just doesn't seem to work for me, because I don't know the timings properly.
I can make some suggestions. Feel free to use whatever works for you. There are a lot of different ways to handle toss.
I like 8 zergling drop right when speed finishes on maps where I can get my overlord in position early. It punishes greed, kills a few probes almost always and reveals what he's up to. It also keeps him from sending his first few adepts to your base. You can run back to the drop overlord and hide inside it if he has no anti air. Then he has to camp there. It's not an all in but you can turn it into one if you want. Saturate your natural and take your third while you're doing this.
If don't find his base early with your overlord, instead of going 8 zergling drop you can keep drones on gas and get overlord speed. This will give you a lot of information especially if he doesn't go air because then he has no way to remove your overlords spread around the map. And speed upgraded overseers are basically unstoppable they will see what he's doing when you get them.
As a zerg there is one thing I will argue that all players should do. Place 1 zergling just out of sight at the entrance to the protoss base. This is the bare minimum information you need to play against a protoss. You have to know when he moves from his base or you will not win. You just can't macro properly without this information. Put it on patrol to cover a larger area. Getting burrow can be very good as well. Especially if you tend to select all army and move it out of position  . Burrowing at their third and fourth bases can take them a while to remove if they don't have a robo up and gives you perfect scouting info.
Some of this stuff is pretty expensive to do early game. So you want to make sure that you don't fall behind while you're doing it. I recommend droning up to about 44 supply. Make sure you have three queens and then take your third and right after that make a roach warren. If he takes his third you want to immediately drone up your third and start a fourth. Then tech and upgrades. You want to avoid making roaches until you are fully saturated but most games you'll need them to defend some kind of adept attack. Make only as many as you need. If he does a big gate timing you won't saturate your third instead you want ravangers/roach and speedlings.
Gas timing is really important. It's easy to get stuck with 1500 minerals and 0 gas, or visa versa, if you're not paying attention to whats happening. I don't recommend taking gas before you have 22 drones on your natural because it reduces your mineral mining which is super important early game. However, some builds do that for faster tech. Think about it like this. Taking gases means you're using 4 drones. If you take two gases that's 8 drones. Be sure to replace these immediately or you're crippling your mineral economy. Your mineral economy is what lets you build more hatcheries which in-turn lets you take more expansions and build more drones and queens.
So lets assume you do get you fourth going and the protoss is going air. There's a lot of tips above this post about protoss air most of them are pretty good. Here's now I deal with it though. Most of the time I see voidrays when the protoss does turtle air. Which means corruptors kinda suck. Plus corruptors can't shoot down very well which means you can't be aggressive. So in my mind the only solution is to use hydras. I really like hydra/nydus. Especially if he's turtling and has no ground army. A speed upgraded overseer will always get a nydus down in the protoss base. I like vipers too. Although they aren't amazing against voidrays. If he stacks them for some reason they can be great. Your entire mission in life should then be to deny any expansion the protoss makes and nydus his main if he leaves his base. Top priority is kill his stargates. They will hide expansions so you need full map coverage and nydus everywhere so you can move quickly. If he goes carriers follow the tips above with carapace upgraded corruptors. The important thing is not to panic and take bad engagements. Don't attack into his cannons or choke points.
As a side not if the protoss is not going heavy air you probably want to be teching towards broodlords. That's usually how I win my games against protoss. There are some cheesy ways to beat protoss but if you want to learn to play aiming for broodlords is the best way. Focus on your economy and scouting. Use what you see to react properly. Zerg can get ahead of all but the most greedy protoss. But if they are being too greedy its easy for zerg to switch gears to a timing attack instead. I hope this helps.
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On March 15 2016 06:29 shimmering119 wrote:
im really new to sc2, is there a general build i should just be spamming in each matchup to start ironing out my macro and to let me focus on stuff like spending larva, resources, spreading creep etc? or should i just try and get that stuff down before i think about what units or strat i should be doing
13 overlord
17 hatch
18 gas
17 pool
19 overlord
19 2x queens + 3x lings
third base at 3-4 minutes
this is a pretty basic and safe build for any matchup if you're new to the game and will set you up to focus on learning macro. when you're new you will probably die to cheese with this build, but defending cheese is a learned skill. generally zerg doesn't really have to follow numerical build orders past the basic opener unless you're doing an allin, because if you're not doing an allin your build order is drones drones drones
it's also quite easy for a newbie to learn and execute because after making your hatch you can rally your next two drones directly to an extractor and the timing lines up perfectly to throw down a gas and pool. once you have 3 bases fully mining i recommend going roaches and attacking nonstop with 3 base roach. keep doing this game after game until you aren't getting supply blocked, and at that point you can start thinking about compositions and matchup strategy
if you want to be safer against cheese then you can open 17 gas, 17 pool, speed, queen, hatchery
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On March 16 2016 01:26 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2016 06:29 shimmering119 wrote:
im really new to sc2, is there a general build i should just be spamming in each matchup to start ironing out my macro and to let me focus on stuff like spending larva, resources, spreading creep etc? or should i just try and get that stuff down before i think about what units or strat i should be doing 13 overlord 17 hatch 18 gas 17 pool 19 overlord 19 2x queens + 3x lings third base at 3-4 minutes this is a pretty basic and safe build for any matchup if you're new to the game and will set you up to focus on learning macro. when you're new you will probably die to cheese with this build, but defending cheese is a learned skill. generally zerg doesn't really have to follow numerical build orders past the basic opener unless you're doing an allin, because if you're not doing an allin your build order is drones drones drones it's also quite easy for a newbie to learn and execute because after making your hatch you can rally your next two drones directly to an extractor and the timing lines up perfectly to throw down a gas and pool. once you have 3 bases fully mining i recommend going roaches and attacking nonstop with 3 base roach. keep doing this game after game until you aren't getting supply blocked, and at that point you can start thinking about compositions and matchup strategy if you want to be safer against cheese then you can open 17 gas, 17 pool, speed, queen, hatchery
This is good, I agree, although in ZvZ at least up to a masters level on 2 player maps you can almost always open speedling expand or at the very least pool first and at least decrease your chances of dying to cheese which has become insanely popular in the match up.
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EPT
