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On January 02 2016 10:16 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 08:41 Maxie wrote:On January 02 2016 08:19 ThePastor wrote:On January 02 2016 07:47 Maxie wrote:
When supply capped, should I just chill until I have enough larva and resources to quickly remax? Of course it depends on the game, what you're maxed on etc but I feel like I tend to go attack way too early and end up being unable to remax if things go wrong. Good thing to do is just go 'poke' with your army. If you feel like your army is substantially bigger then go for it, if you feel like your army is a similar size and not sure how the battle will go and don't have resources to max out try drawing the army out of position and harrassing / back stabbing. Split off small chunks and try just poking. Meanwhile keep expanding and build a big bank. Importantly try to keep the enemy on his side of the map, once you feel you have the resources for a re-max do some fighting! Just try to fight on their side so you have time to remax. Thanks for the advice. Another thing that I'm not sure of is where to go for. Let's say it's a little longer game and there's a fourth, maybe a fifth, but those bases are quite a bit off from the straight path in between us. I feel like trying to kill off a far off base is really risky, so should I just try to go for a base that is closer to the path between my main and his? Though on the other hand the further away base, the more exposed it is. Or if I have a slower army, just go for a direct engagement regardless? If the base is far away it is - as you say - probably exposed. If you push him onto his side of the map and he is a defensive posture and he has a base that is vunerable you can just slice a portion of your army off and go hit his expo. Even 20 lings can go mess a base up that doesn't have much defense. If you are postured outside his base with units and he is defending remember that you DO NOT have to attack. So while he is stuck on 3 bases and you are outside he either has to A push into you or B try and harrass you to try and force your army back. If you can contain him while expanding and gobling up resources eventually he is going to have to come out. With the new LoTV mineral consumption rates they cannot sit in a base as long anymore. I heard Artosis once say, "If they defend, expand; if they expand, attack; if they attack, defend." Try and get that in your head, it will help a lot.
I haven't played much lotv, so I may be a bit off here, as it is based on a few games only. That said, I feel I have ended up in this kind of situations a few times, not least with roach-ravager vs terran. I normally do what you say: if I don't feel comfortable pushing into their defensive positions I just take map control and expand, trying to limit their expansions. What happens is that I get medivacs, banshees and liberators making a complete mess of my economy while my army is out on the map, but I still don't feel comfortable pushing up his ramp, and I'd like to avoid a base-trade vs a terran anyway.
Is there a problem with the overall principle? Is the "contain and expand" strategy still a good choice even with the very powerful harass in lotv? Should I just be better at defending harass in the late game?
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On January 02 2016 10:45 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 10:16 ThePastor wrote:On January 02 2016 08:41 Maxie wrote:On January 02 2016 08:19 ThePastor wrote:On January 02 2016 07:47 Maxie wrote:
When supply capped, should I just chill until I have enough larva and resources to quickly remax? Of course it depends on the game, what you're maxed on etc but I feel like I tend to go attack way too early and end up being unable to remax if things go wrong. Good thing to do is just go 'poke' with your army. If you feel like your army is substantially bigger then go for it, if you feel like your army is a similar size and not sure how the battle will go and don't have resources to max out try drawing the army out of position and harrassing / back stabbing. Split off small chunks and try just poking. Meanwhile keep expanding and build a big bank. Importantly try to keep the enemy on his side of the map, once you feel you have the resources for a re-max do some fighting! Just try to fight on their side so you have time to remax. Thanks for the advice. Another thing that I'm not sure of is where to go for. Let's say it's a little longer game and there's a fourth, maybe a fifth, but those bases are quite a bit off from the straight path in between us. I feel like trying to kill off a far off base is really risky, so should I just try to go for a base that is closer to the path between my main and his? Though on the other hand the further away base, the more exposed it is. Or if I have a slower army, just go for a direct engagement regardless? If the base is far away it is - as you say - probably exposed. If you push him onto his side of the map and he is a defensive posture and he has a base that is vunerable you can just slice a portion of your army off and go hit his expo. Even 20 lings can go mess a base up that doesn't have much defense. If you are postured outside his base with units and he is defending remember that you DO NOT have to attack. So while he is stuck on 3 bases and you are outside he either has to A push into you or B try and harrass you to try and force your army back. If you can contain him while expanding and gobling up resources eventually he is going to have to come out. With the new LoTV mineral consumption rates they cannot sit in a base as long anymore. I heard Artosis once say, "If they defend, expand; if they expand, attack; if they attack, defend." Try and get that in your head, it will help a lot. I haven't played much lotv, so I may be a bit off here, as it is based on a few games only. That said, I feel I have ended up in this kind of situations a few times, not least with roach-ravager vs terran. I normally do what you say: if I don't feel comfortable pushing into their defensive positions I just take map control and expand, trying to limit their expansions. What happens is that I get medivacs, banshees and liberators making a complete mess of my economy while my army is out on the map, but I still don't feel comfortable pushing up his ramp, and I'd like to avoid a base-trade vs a terran anyway. Is there a problem with the overall principle? Is the "contain and expand" strategy still a good choice even with the very powerful harass in lotv? Should I just be better at defending harass in the late game?
Fair comment. To be honest I had in my mind ZvP. I tend to play ling/bling/corrupter in ZvT which tends to just barrel and overwhelm and not contain. I think there is still room for this. However, with the amount of harass possibilities they have you will need much more defence. If you are planning on containing gogo static d! What I often do (in my ling/bling style) is have a drop defence group of units hot keyed. For me it is normally hotkey 5 and I have about 10 lings and 2 banelings. If you have a spine/spore here and t here and a small patch of units you should be able to easily defend any drop. If they go hardcore harass, like liberators and drops EVERYWHERE then their defence at home should be very weak, push hard and rally your units to defend when you are re-maxing. Terran should not be able to rally a defence like you can.
To be honest I hate roach/ravager ZvT as I cannot stand drops everywhere without any spire. So my advice may not be the best; hopefully someone else can chime in on this one!
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How do I deal with disruptors?
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On January 01 2016 18:17 Merkmerk wrote:
What do you do against early skyterran?
Liberator + banshee. Banshees rape your ravagers.
Also what do you do against tank drop harass?
Seems terran has 15 different openings, can't scout against a good player who just parks a few marines in base to kill OL before it can see anything, so then you wait for lair which is a bit late to scout
I'll second this one. It hits before 9m mark while they take their third, and this was a plat T doing it. I opened roach rav on orbital shipyard because I saw reactor factory. I put spores around my bases and had extra queens and took a fourth after I saw his fast third cc in base, but there was no way I could have held my fourth. I'm not even sure what unit comp I could beat it with without either a ton of spores around my fourth or vipers. He'd just go to my third if I overdefended the fourth, so I think it's best to try to stay on 3 base hive until I have vipers out? Also how many vipers do I want for like 12 liberators and 8 banshees? Is it worth it to mix in corrupters or just go all viper?
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On January 02 2016 11:40 ThePastor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 10:45 Cascade wrote:On January 02 2016 10:16 ThePastor wrote:On January 02 2016 08:41 Maxie wrote:On January 02 2016 08:19 ThePastor wrote:On January 02 2016 07:47 Maxie wrote:
When supply capped, should I just chill until I have enough larva and resources to quickly remax? Of course it depends on the game, what you're maxed on etc but I feel like I tend to go attack way too early and end up being unable to remax if things go wrong. Good thing to do is just go 'poke' with your army. If you feel like your army is substantially bigger then go for it, if you feel like your army is a similar size and not sure how the battle will go and don't have resources to max out try drawing the army out of position and harrassing / back stabbing. Split off small chunks and try just poking. Meanwhile keep expanding and build a big bank. Importantly try to keep the enemy on his side of the map, once you feel you have the resources for a re-max do some fighting! Just try to fight on their side so you have time to remax. Thanks for the advice. Another thing that I'm not sure of is where to go for. Let's say it's a little longer game and there's a fourth, maybe a fifth, but those bases are quite a bit off from the straight path in between us. I feel like trying to kill off a far off base is really risky, so should I just try to go for a base that is closer to the path between my main and his? Though on the other hand the further away base, the more exposed it is. Or if I have a slower army, just go for a direct engagement regardless? If the base is far away it is - as you say - probably exposed. If you push him onto his side of the map and he is a defensive posture and he has a base that is vunerable you can just slice a portion of your army off and go hit his expo. Even 20 lings can go mess a base up that doesn't have much defense. If you are postured outside his base with units and he is defending remember that you DO NOT have to attack. So while he is stuck on 3 bases and you are outside he either has to A push into you or B try and harrass you to try and force your army back. If you can contain him while expanding and gobling up resources eventually he is going to have to come out. With the new LoTV mineral consumption rates they cannot sit in a base as long anymore. I heard Artosis once say, "If they defend, expand; if they expand, attack; if they attack, defend." Try and get that in your head, it will help a lot. I haven't played much lotv, so I may be a bit off here, as it is based on a few games only. That said, I feel I have ended up in this kind of situations a few times, not least with roach-ravager vs terran. I normally do what you say: if I don't feel comfortable pushing into their defensive positions I just take map control and expand, trying to limit their expansions. What happens is that I get medivacs, banshees and liberators making a complete mess of my economy while my army is out on the map, but I still don't feel comfortable pushing up his ramp, and I'd like to avoid a base-trade vs a terran anyway. Is there a problem with the overall principle? Is the "contain and expand" strategy still a good choice even with the very powerful harass in lotv? Should I just be better at defending harass in the late game? Fair comment. To be honest I had in my mind ZvP. I tend to play ling/bling/corrupter in ZvT which tends to just barrel and overwhelm and not contain. I think there is still room for this. However, with the amount of harass possibilities they have you will need much more defence. If you are planning on containing gogo static d! What I often do (in my ling/bling style) is have a drop defence group of units hot keyed. For me it is normally hotkey 5 and I have about 10 lings and 2 banelings. If you have a spine/spore here and t here and a small patch of units you should be able to easily defend any drop. If they go hardcore harass, like liberators and drops EVERYWHERE then their defence at home should be very weak, push hard and rally your units to defend when you are re-maxing. Terran should not be able to rally a defence like you can. To be honest I hate roach/ravager ZvT as I cannot stand drops everywhere without any spire. So my advice may not be the best; hopefully someone else can chime in on this one!
Thanks.
Maybe I should always have at least 6-7 mutas, even if I go roach-ravager otherwise, just so I can chase down medivacs and actually make the harassment cost something for the terran. With only static, queens, and ling/bling/roach/ravager, the terran can come and go as he pleases, allowing him to harass with very little risk. Not sure if corruptors are fast enough to hunt down medivacs? A few mutas (or corruptors I guess) will also force turrets from the terran, and will put some counter pressure back on, even if I only go to his base once to tell him to stay honest. Should I add the spire first thing after lair then? Or wait until I am planning to move out for map control?
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"Should I add the spire first thing after lair then? Or wait until I am planning to move out for map control?"
My question as well, from how my games generally go for me if I do not plant the spire with bling speed and make the safety Mutas then drops just destroy me.
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On January 02 2016 14:04 guitarizt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2016 18:17 Merkmerk wrote:
What do you do against early skyterran?
Liberator + banshee. Banshees rape your ravagers.
Also what do you do against tank drop harass?
Seems terran has 15 different openings, can't scout against a good player who just parks a few marines in base to kill OL before it can see anything, so then you wait for lair which is a bit late to scout I'll second this one. It hits before 9m mark while they take their third, and this was a plat T doing it. I opened roach rav on orbital shipyard because I saw reactor factory. I put spores around my bases and had extra queens and took a fourth after I saw his fast third cc in base, but there was no way I could have held my fourth. I'm not even sure what unit comp I could beat it with without either a ton of spores around my fourth or vipers. He'd just go to my third if I overdefended the fourth, so I think it's best to try to stay on 3 base hive until I have vipers out? Also how many vipers do I want for like 12 liberators and 8 banshees? Is it worth it to mix in corrupters or just go all viper?
Played against it again today and even having owned him all early game he just crapped on me spamming marines and liberators
To top it all off he spammed PFs which I couldn't take down efficiently. I fucking hate how click-and-forget that thing is.
PB worked until he started splitting, and then corruptors (even split) couldn't cut it, nor hydra
Played another game against another T on Lerilak Crest and he rushed straight to libs and parked them behind my mineral line and my ravagers couldn't even shoot them without getting blasted, and he had coverage of the mineral line so I couldn't saturate without having drones just run to the patches that were covered and get blasted
Very frustrating, takes so little skill to execute and so much to deal with.
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Is there a trick to dealing with the new carriers? I felt like I had a close game vs P going carrrier adept, but I was shocked to see that after I had 2x the eco score. I tried going mass hydra with ling run bys (I've tried corrupter before and got slaughtered), but there was one fight where the hydra all kind of died in one second in his base to the carriers.
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On January 02 2016 18:29 guitarizt wrote:
Is there a trick to dealing with the new carriers? I felt like I had a close game vs P going carrrier adept, but I was shocked to see that after I had 2x the eco score. I tried going mass hydra with ling run bys (I've tried corrupter before and got slaughtered), but there was one fight where the hydra all kind of died in one second in his base to the carriers.
From what I have found, the best way to combat carriers is for Corruptors to focus on the carriers and let the Hydras auto attack the interceptors. It works a lot better then I thought it would and is how I have beaten a sky toss army in a straight up engagement. I had 2-3 ultras for templar/disruptor or whatever ground they had and rest hydra/corruptor. It trades pretty efficiently and you should have a sick economy when playing against sky toss so just remax with same army and you should win.
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Yeah if you go roach ravager you pretty much need a spire or infestors to shut down drops, it's a complete pain otherwise. I usually see the drops coming because I tend to have an okay overlord spread, but even then you need something to stop them from just picking up again. That said, defense squad hotkey is pretty much needed. And unless they're already going hard on liberators (in which case I guess they would have fewer medivacs anyway) I'd start off by making a few mutas, corruptors are a bit too slow for chasing drops.
My issue is when they build a viking or liberator and shoot down all my stationed overlords, making me blind.
A question regarding creep spread, how do I manage to get it going early if I'm not doing a build with lots of early extra queens, and I only have one queen per hatchery early on? I figured that it would be okay to skip the first injects with some builds and put down 1x creep tumor per base instead since I thought I would be limited by my income rather than by the amount of larva, but that ended up making me float a decent amount of resources for a while. My creep spread tends to be very poor so I'd really like to figure this out.
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On January 02 2016 19:50 Maxie wrote:
Yeah if you go roach ravager you pretty much need a spire or infestors to shut down drops, it's a complete pain otherwise. I usually see the drops coming because I tend to have an okay overlord spread, but even then you need something to stop them from just picking up again. That said, defense squad hotkey is pretty much needed. And unless they're already going hard on liberators (in which case I guess they would have fewer medivacs anyway) I'd start off by making a few mutas, corruptors are a bit too slow for chasing drops.
My issue is when they build a viking or liberator and shoot down all my stationed overlords, making me blind.
A question regarding creep spread, how do I manage to get it going early if I'm not doing a build with lots of early extra queens, and I only have one queen per hatchery early on? I figured that it would be okay to skip the first injects with some builds and put down 1x creep tumor per base instead since I thought I would be limited by my income rather than by the amount of larva, but that ended up making me float a decent amount of resources for a while. My creep spread tends to be very poor so I'd really like to figure this out.
I feel the same.
In Archon mode I don't even bother with Roach/Ravager because if there is one dedicated player to micro the drop harass then you have virtually no chance to deal with it with ground units (other than Infestor).
Basically I play Mutas in most matches, not because Mutas are particularly good, but because all other Zerg units are very bad at dealing with harass/drops.
In LOTV I don't commit as much with my tech choice. In most games I do all upgrades/buildings/units anyways (except swarm host they are utterly useless).
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This is the thing I can't stand about playing roach/ravager, I feel completely exposed. I feel like harass is to frustrating to deal with. I tend to just play ling/bling/corrupter (with a muta add in if needed) and just go for overwhelm. Play defensive on my side of the map, crush any attack that comes and counter with packs of lings. This means you have your army on your side making drops and harass not as good. Once maxed and you crush an attack go and kill them. I am unsure if this is theoritically 'good' play but it appears to be working in Diamond on KR. My ZvT seems to be pretty good at the moment. Don't ask me about my ZvZ though lol
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^
There's a reason koreans are using heavy drop play to shut down roach ravager strategies
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Corruptors are okay too. I wish there was a corruptor speed upgrade or something. They always fly away :D
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On January 03 2016 09:06 A_needle_jog wrote:
Corruptors are okay too. I wish there was a corruptor speed upgrade or something. They always fly away :D
That would be nice! Somehow I don't think it would happen though lol. All they do is put the medivacs on a timer, they cannot constantly pick up and drop between two bases.
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On January 02 2016 18:34 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2016 18:29 guitarizt wrote:
Is there a trick to dealing with the new carriers? I felt like I had a close game vs P going carrrier adept, but I was shocked to see that after I had 2x the eco score. I tried going mass hydra with ling run bys (I've tried corrupter before and got slaughtered), but there was one fight where the hydra all kind of died in one second in his base to the carriers. From what I have found, the best way to combat carriers is for Corruptors to focus on the carriers and let the Hydras auto attack the interceptors. It works a lot better then I thought it would and is how I have beaten a sky toss army in a straight up engagement. I had 2-3 ultras for templar/disruptor or whatever ground they had and rest hydra/corruptor. It trades pretty efficiently and you should have a sick economy when playing against sky toss so just remax with same army and you should win.
Thanks, I'm think I'm getting the hang of this. I messed around with corrupter hydra mixes in unit tester and I did better with a mix. I think it's because they can't focus down the corrupters and micro away because then the hydra are doing so much dps. If they focus the hydra down which I think is better then they have to stay and take damage from the corrupters. I also noticed a mistake I was making before is that I can't ever engage and run away with hydra because they get slaughtered.
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Just getting back into SC2, having to shake off a lot of rust mechanics wise but have had some other consistent problems.
How the fuck do you deal with liberators? Facing normal marine/tank/medivac but with a few of those frequently, and it's giving me tons of trouble. I read that ravagers are a good answer, but the liberators are usually behind a line of marines so out of bile range
Aight just played a game where someone just stationed a couple at every mineral line, can't get bile shots off without losing at least one ravager, what a dumb unit
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That's the new imba build - nathanius posted a video of it
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This could go in the protoss help me thread but I was wondering if any zergs had experienced the best counter to a 12 pool on ruins of seras against a protoss opponent? I feel like the map is a coinflip, zerg either go 3 hatch before pool or go 12 pool and all-in your natural. From a zerg standpoint, when do you back off the 12 pool aggression and then go up to 3 hatch? What composition prevents you from taking the nexus?
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ZvP what to do vs mass air?
Parasitic Bomb? Then how exactly the micro works?
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EPT
