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I started out asking this question in the Simple Questions/Simple Answers thread but it started developing beyond the guidelines provided for that thread.
I've always wondered, since WOL, if going pure Warp Gates is the most efficient means of macroing for Protoss in the mid to late game. I never really voiced the question due to the game still in it's early stages and it was just generally accepted that Warp Gates were superior. Now that we've entered the LOTV era, I've been curious to finally hear a response.
My question is - Is it really that much more efficient to warp in Warp Gate units versus Gateway units?
For the sake of simplicity, let's say that the Protoss is of Master level and let's say this player has the uncanny ability of being able to warp in units EXACTLY when the cool-down ends on his Warp Gates.
[ ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LQUatNS.png)
I've provided a graphic that shows the build times (in seconds) of Gateway units vs the warping cool-down times (in seconds) of Warp Gate units.
Now, just looking at the times, excluding the 4 second/11 second warp in delays. The benefits of Warp Gates are obvious, units could be "trained" faster. Not to mention you can just about place these units ANYWHERE there is power to do so.
Initial units are warped in at 4 seconds. Nothing can beat that initial production time but after that, depending on the unit, Warp Gates need a 20-30 second cool-down time. Anytime a Protoss player is not warping in units when that cool-down ends, it is considered wasted time.
Now in the early game, a player is usually VERY efficient with his minerals and staying on top of the warp in time which makes Warp Gates very efficient, but MANY players, even Pros! Slip heading into mid to late game, especially when battles are being fought but I'm getting off topic.
So let us include the 4 second warp in delay which is ONLY available when a unit is warped inside a pylon connected to a Nexus/Gateway.
In reality, a Zealot will take 24 seconds, instead of 20, to be combat ready when warped in next to a Nexus/Gateway. That's only 3 seconds faster than a standard Gateway Zealot. Now when it comes to rushing or a critical base defense, 3 seconds is life or death.
The Sentry is combat ready in 27 seconds. One second slower than a Gateway Sentry. So there really is no benefit if you warp in the Sentry right next to the Gateway.
So go ahead and add + 4 seconds to every unit. In general, with exception of the Sentry, all units will "train" roughly 3 seconds faster in a Warp Gate.
Don't even get me started on the training times if you're warping in a unit OUTSIDE a Nexus/Gateway pylon. Add +11 seconds. (31 seconds to build a Zealot! 43 seconds for a HT or DT!!!)
Again, this is ASSUMING the Master Protoss player we're using as an example is ALWAYS warping in as SOON as the cool-down comes off his Warp Gates. This player is so good he knows he needs to click back to his base or powered area of choice about every 20-30 seconds to deploy units.
So what about the player that is NOT warping in his units as soon as the cool-down is done? Well, just like any player that struggles to macro, you won't have any combat units ready for the next battle.
So the question - Is it really that much more efficient to warp in Warp Gate units versus Gateway units?
Let's throw a twist in the mix.
Let's say a Master Protoss and a Master Terran are about to engage in an epic battle. The Protoss player just finished using his Warp Gates, he's at his max supply cap. He can not queue up any units in the Warp Gates therefore, he must be ready to warp in units as soon as supply is freed up. The Protoss player heads into battle.
A Terran player usually just queues up more units in his facilities before heading into battle, normally not taking his eyes off his army. (Thanks hotkeys!) Uh oh. The Terran Player has hit his supply cap. He technically can not "train" more units but they are still queuing up in his Barracks/Factories/Starports. These units will start building as soon as supply is freed up. The Terran Player heads into battle.
The battle is fierce. Units are micro'd. Storms cast. Stim used. Marines dancing/stutter stepping to outpace zealots. Stalkers trying to blink forward. Disrupter shots trying to be placed to maximize damage. Etc.
The Protoss Player realizes that the battle will be close, he needs to have an army ready back at home. How is this accomplished? The player has to flick his screen to a pylon connected to a Nexus/Gateway and manually warp in EACH unit available. (Let's say this player has... 25 Warp Gates) Let's say it takes about 2-4 seconds for the Protoss Player to empty his Warp Gates and to have units warping in. Then the player flicks back to the battle. Uh oh. Where are the Disrupters? How did they get killed? Man he sure lost more units then he thought he would during the 2-4 seconds he was off warping in units.
The Terran Player has been microing his units the entire time, his screen never left the battle. Maybe once or twice he spammed his Barracks hotkey and spammed MMMM but he was able to quickly bring his mouse back up in time to micro a Raven into position to Hunter Seeker a group of Disrupters before they could fire another again. The Terran does not have to flick back to his base to create units. In fact, during that whole battle he was having units being produced (Because they were already queued!!!) and has another army ready to go.
Does Protoss have the same luxury to flick away during a battle to warp in units? Even then it's only 25 units IF you have the minerals saved up. Then you have to wait another 20-30 seconds before using your Warp Gates again. Terran has NO cool-down between unit creation.
Even if you're at 200 supply, you can STILL queue up units in the gateway to start producing as soon as a unit is lost. Warp gates have no advantage in that regard. If you're in the middle of a giant 200/200 army battle, chances are you're not looking away from that battle to spam units until after you've won or lost. The Terran can just have the barracks all queue'd up and ready to go to produce units as they are lost. That requires no managing.
In conclusion, it seems that it would be more ideal to have mostly Gateways with units queue'd up and ready to be built during an engagement with a small group of Warp Gates would still be ideal for rapid defense to a location or for Warp Prism attacks.
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At 200, if you queue up, you won't get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.
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I can see what you're going for and it's not completely out of line, but even if the time was 100% equal the fact that you can warp in and get them instantly into action trumps it extremely hard. The buildtime is just the icing on the cake.
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On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won't get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE.
But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one's units are dying, one will not be able to get into one's base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one's army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.
It all comes down to player skill and macro skill. I would say in general, MOST players do not have the skill to be constantly spamming the warp gate units in an effective manner.
I mean think about it. If I was in my base warping in units and I had 2-3 Disrupters that were just sitting, not being micro'd, then those units are useless. At least Reavers would continue to fire. Or what about storming with HT? Or blinking Stalkers?
If I knew my units were being built back at home because I had my Gateways all queued up, then I would not have to stop microing my units engaged in battle to go warp in units.
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Not gonna happen. Warpgate has too many huge advantages.
You compare building times but you also need to consider that gateway units spawn outside of the gateway and you almost never need the units there immediately, so it takes like 10~30 more seconds for them to become effective.
Also, another important thing to consider is that while gateways get your resources stuck in the production tab for 30-40 seconds, warpgate only requires you to spend them when you warp the units in (4-11 seconds before they enter the battlefield).
I'm estimating they would need like twice the cooldowns for people to use gateways instead of warpgates outside of the early game.
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The problem with your conclusions are that you assume Protoss macros like a terran, constantly building units every production cycle. Instead, most protosses will sometimes opt to not build units for a while to afford tech or upgrades or more gateways. Warp gates are better for this style of play because then when you need gateway units after not hitting your warpins for a while, you get them immediately.
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It might be the Brood War Protoss in me I guess. Terran and Protoss were the same style of macro in BW.
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On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won't get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE. But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one's units are dying, one will not be able to get into one's base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one's army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced. It all comes down to player skill and macro skill. I would say in general, MOST players do not have the skill to be constantly spamming the warp gate units in an effective manner. I mean think about it. If I was in my base warping in units and I had 2-3 Disrupters that were just sitting, not being micro'd, then those units are useless. At least Reavers would continue to fire. Or what about storming with HT? Or blinking Stalkers? If I knew my units were being built back at home because I had my Gateways all queued up, then I would not have to stop microing my units engaged in battle to go warp in units.
Read his argument again..
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The flaw I see is that you cannot count the 24 second recharge since it is backloaded. Assuming equal supply is queued with the Terran, Protoss' units will be out exponentially faster.
If you warp in from a proxy pylon, then yes, this is a disadvantage.
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I like where you are going with this, if Warp prism didn't also have the same cooldown as being next to a nexus/gateway, Protoss just needs to keep a couple warp prisms around to almost instantly warp in his army after losing so much. I do hate having to actually look away to warp in units. Maybe if blizzard made the times a little bit more favored for Gateways there could actually be variety in play styles.
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On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won't get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE. But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one's units are dying, one will not be able to get into one's base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one's army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced.
There's a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready?
Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don't die. Protoss doesn't have that problem because of warpgates. It's a huge deal.
Also you can't actually queue up new stuff when you're already 200/200.
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On November 17 2015 19:43 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won't get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE. But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one's units are dying, one will not be able to get into one's base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one's army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced. There's a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready? Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don't die. Protoss doesn't have that problem because of warpgates. It's a huge deal. Also you can't actually queue up new stuff when you're already 200/200.
But you can "overqueue" units before you just max out. I don't see a use for it in pvt or pvz though, that extra reinforcement (zealots) are needed to continuously tank for your high powered units. However, in PvP I can see it having some use during deathball fights, where you can pull back your tempests/disruptors before all your tanking units die off, and regroup with with the gateway units you made back home during the fight then transform back into warpgates.
Very niche use though, 99% of the time warpgate is just better.
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On November 17 2015 19:45 EngrishTeacher wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2015 19:43 Elentos wrote:On November 17 2015 06:57 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:On November 17 2015 06:46 FreeZEternal wrote:
At 200, if you queue up, you won't get those units instantly like the warp gate. I think that to itself would be HUGE. But with only a 3 second difference, is it really that HUGE? The odds are, as one's units are dying, one will not be able to get into one's base to warp in units to make up that difference because one would ideally be microing the rest of one's army until that battle is won or lost. And just HOW many Warp Gates are available? How many Warp Gates do Protoss have by a 200/200 end game? 25? 30? So that means you replace 25 units instantly in one go yes but a Terran player is having units constantly being replaced. There's a huge difference between having those units instantly and having those units in 30 seconds. Namely that one is in time to defend the attack and the other gets killed off by units camping production. Or say you win the fight and want to push in, do you want to give your opponent an extra 30 seconds to get ready? Getting on top of the Terran production is considered a checkmate move. Everything coming out of their production is killed as soon as it pops, even if the buildings don't die. Protoss doesn't have that problem because of warpgates. It's a huge deal. Also you can't actually queue up new stuff when you're already 200/200. But you can "overqueue" units before you just max out. I don't see a use for it in pvt or pvz though, that extra reinforcement (zealots) are needed to continuously tank for your high powered units. However, in PvP I can see it having some use during deathball fights, where you can pull back your tempests/disruptors before all your tanking units die off, and regroup with with the gateway units you made back home during the fight then transform back into warpgates. Very niche use though, 99% of the time warpgate is just better.
Isn't it more likely that your retreat gets cut off by warped-in reinforcements?
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i would grant that with lotv warpin changes there is more of a glimmer of a discussion to be had about this, but i still think it's definitively better to use warpgates if you play at any semblance of a high level. like i said in the lotv forum and like the first reply says here, being able to warp in units immediately is just too valuable, especially since protoss relies so much on having a meat shield for their aoe units, and also for high templar or other energy units which need to build up energy over time
even with the warpin nerf you can still use warp prisms to reinforce nearby, so i think one of the big factors is that if you're protoss and you're looking to win a big direct fight you will need to have your full production cycle available to you to warp in at the prism so your entire army doesn't get overrun and so you're better equipped to keep up in a back and forth fight. this especially applies if you're in a situation where your economy has taken a hit and you're semi "all-in"
if you play at a level where your macro isn't good then there could be some theoretical benefit to this, i suppose, but it would be learning the game in a very awkward way that doesn't lend itself to improvement - kind of like making 5 macro hatcheries instead of queens and injects if you play zerg. at high levels you're not going to have thousands of minerals sitting around to have backup gateways on top of a full cycle's worth of warpgates, ESPECIALLY in lotv with bases mining out faster
keep in mind also that especially earlier in the game (before 200ish supply) if you're using regular gateways you're making a more distant mineral investment when you first build them, and the earlier you spend your minerals to get a later benefit the more opportunity cost you're losing
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The greatest benefit of the warp gates is and forever has been the ability to warp in units instantly, wherever they are needed. During or after a skirmish you can instantly reinforce with the units you need (which you would otherwise have to predict that you need, enqueue them , wait for their build time and then wait for their travel time to your current position)
That advantage is way too big to be traded for possibly faster overall build time thanks the unit queuing.
With the change in LotV the biggest change to this playstyle was that Protoss players would bring warp prism with them instead of a probe. If the warp prism ability was removed then we could possibly see a mix of gateways/warp gates, but as things stand now, Warp Gate still holds the advantage over traditional Gateways.
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In a maxed situation Warpgate > Gateway because you have 20+ seconds to warp in units before queuing them up would have been faster. Good players will be ready to warp in as soon as units start dying.
I usually have a Warp Prism hanging around my opponent's main in max vs max situations just to immediately jump on his production as soon as I start losing units.
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Can we all just agree that protoss is now a joke in LotV
User was warned for this post
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I think for a top tier player warpgates is definitely better. I think they can take advantage of the 3 seconds. For me I will definitely try this out.
I'm a diamond level toss and in some respect I get where you're coming from. When I get into a big fight the reality is after casting forcefields, guardian shield, micro the position of your units, send disruptor volleys, activate phoniex or voidrays, use mothership core abilities, blink micro your stalkers. By the time you get to do a warp in round....for a dimond player it's painful.
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EPT
