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On July 19 2015 07:29 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2015 06:40 FusionSC2 wrote:On July 19 2015 02:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
If the Zerg is going gas first, and you put your probes in gas, etc. do you still get the 19 nexus and wall off, or do you get other units first? Do you mean a 14/14 kinda thing? If so you can go up to 3 gates and expand out of that, if you place the nexus too early, you just get wrecked by speedlings, and they can take the natural behind it and drone up. I think so. Maybe 15/14. I show up with the 13 gate probe, see a gas already built with three drones inside, and a pool on the way. How do you know if it's speedlings or a roach push on the way?
Stick around with the probe and check how much gas is being mined. It is almost always a ling pressure into expand against a gate first, banes just dont work against gate first. Roaches will take a while to move across the map, so get out gateways units and defend from there.
TL;DR: Check the gas mining for as long as possible, also check for pool jiggling for speed.
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Australia103 Posts
I really like your approach to this build. I have a question about the opening though.
Your first zealot is very late (it starts after u build the pylon at ur natural). How do you deal with lings in ur base? Your zealot doesn't pop till 4:40 and lings can be in your base much earlier than that. Should you actually start the zealot before the natural pylon?
Edit: I've played this build a few times now, really like it. But still have this issue. Do you adjust your opening vs 15pool?
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On July 19 2015 13:03 Protossking wrote:
I really like your approach to this build. I have a question about the opening though.
Your first zealot is very late (it starts after u build the pylon at ur natural). How do you deal with lings in ur base? Your zealot doesn't pop till 4:40 and lings can be in your base much earlier than that. Should you actually start the zealot before the natural pylon?
Edit: I've played this build a few times now, really like it. But still have this issue. Do you adjust your opening vs 15pool?
It will force you to do more multitask. You can deal vs lings with some probe micro, or just make zealot earlyer if you too lasy / can't / don't want to micro (this will shift timings to +10-20 seconds ofc.). We assuming it's pool-hatch 15-16, and not 12 pool or else, if scouted early pool, it's not bad idea to always start zealot ASAP.
That's my opinion and point of view, if PtitDrogo won't show up soon for better suggestions.
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..mouarf...it's a bit the bare minimun for the video, not even the BO....
that good old sentry expand is supposed to be a french build since when ?
It's not because MC stopped progaming that you should try to steal his builds 
edit: At least, it's another proof of protoss weird/bad mechanics
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On July 20 2015 21:37 TedBurtle wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2015 13:03 Protossking wrote:
I really like your approach to this build. I have a question about the opening though.
Your first zealot is very late (it starts after u build the pylon at ur natural). How do you deal with lings in ur base? Your zealot doesn't pop till 4:40 and lings can be in your base much earlier than that. Should you actually start the zealot before the natural pylon?
Edit: I've played this build a few times now, really like it. But still have this issue. Do you adjust your opening vs 15pool? It will force you to do more multitask. You can deal vs lings with some probe micro, or just make zealot earlyer if you too lasy / can't / don't want to micro (this will shift timings to +10-20 seconds ofc.). We assuming it's pool-hatch 15-16, and not 12 pool or else, if scouted early pool, it's not bad idea to always start zealot ASAP. That's my opinion and point of view, if PtitDrogo won't show up soon for better suggestions.
Nowadays I make the zealot before the third pylone, you get slighty supplyblock but it's fine, if you see pool first and see 4-6 ling presure chronoing the zealot is fine
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On July 21 2015 00:39 Cazimirbzh wrote:..mouarf...it's a bit the bare minimun for the video, not even the BO.... that good old sentry expand is supposed to be a french build since when ? It's not because MC stopped progaming that you should try to steal his builds edit: At least, it's another proof of protoss weird/bad mechanics
Don't think you understand what you're talking about. This playstyle is only about 1 year old and it's nowhere close to how MC used to play.
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Australia103 Posts
Ok cool I came up wit the same answer but I wasn't sure if it was the most efficient.
I use to do gate nexus before my gas and 2nd pylon.. But I've been thinking about it and I think your way is better. You don't have to cut probes and you can react slightly better to speedling all ins (i say slightly because my old variation could deal with them it was just a bit more shaky). I think that the fact you don't cut probes is huge though, seeing as ur main is only just saturated by the time the nat comes up anyway, its not like u need the nat earlier.
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On July 21 2015 08:19 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2015 00:39 Cazimirbzh wrote:..mouarf...it's a bit the bare minimun for the video, not even the BO.... that good old sentry expand is supposed to be a french build since when ? It's not because MC stopped progaming that you should try to steal his builds edit: At least, it's another proof of protoss weird/bad mechanics Don't think you understand what you're talking about. This playstyle is only about 1 year old and it's nowhere close to how MC used to play.
It's a Yuffe's opening and MC started the sentries gameplay in WOL when it was still 1 base/2 base play for a long time^^. The only difference is that, now, protoss does it to take third and zerg is already on 3base, thanks to the maps.
But if am wrong,plz, can you enlighten me?
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Lot of good games today showing how this build is used in various circumstances!
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guys/will be the replays from asus rog?
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On July 22 2015 00:50 Cazimirbzh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2015 08:19 KingAlphard wrote:On July 21 2015 00:39 Cazimirbzh wrote:..mouarf...it's a bit the bare minimun for the video, not even the BO.... that good old sentry expand is supposed to be a french build since when ? It's not because MC stopped progaming that you should try to steal his builds edit: At least, it's another proof of protoss weird/bad mechanics Don't think you understand what you're talking about. This playstyle is only about 1 year old and it's nowhere close to how MC used to play. It's a Yuffe's opening and MC started the sentries gameplay in WOL when it was still 1 base/2 base play for a long time^^. The only difference is that, now, protoss does it to take third and zerg is already on 3base, thanks to the maps. But if am wrong,plz, can you enlighten me?
It's not simply "thanks to the maps", it's the meta that evolved due to people understanding the game better, learning how to hold early zerg attacks in particular. Maps have had easily defendable naturals since 2012, but this playstyle got popular relatively recently. You can see some things in common between this and the old "sentry expand", since both relied on forcefields for defense, but to say that it is copied from it, that's going way too far.
I also don't see how you can call "Yuffe's opening" a very intuitive 1 gate expand (which has been used against terran for ages as well) where you pull probes off the gas and delay your core if you scout a hatch first opening.
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On August 01 2015 07:51 LiptoneC wrote:
guys/will be the replays from asus rog?
Aeromi told me it's going to happen soon ™
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@KingAlphard
ofc it's not only about the maps^^ otherwise i think noone would play sc2 anymore. But they play a huge role in the kind of BO you can do or not. Indeed, Meta evolves when some people try new things. I remember when Flash was struggling a lot vs Z and could go for 3-4 different openings according to situation.
Yuffe ( why you fast forge expand) is the intuitive gateway expand that revolves around scouting in sc2.
This variant of PetitDrogo goes for assimilator before nexus because his followup requires a lot of gas asap. Also because PetitDrogo likes to defend with units. It delays the nexus a bit but allows to gather gas more quickly for sentries.
but to say that it is copied from it my bad, the fact that MC retired not a lot of time ago made me want to provoke a bit the new shining foreigner. Too far for you^^
This playstyle blink+2/sentries is old but the fact we see it more this days is more about the flaws in protoss race than an improvement of gameplay :S
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Thanks a lot! I've studied your replay (vs HyuN, Losira) in these days but I know this guide is here now, which helps me understand the build so much! :D
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On August 01 2015 23:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:
This playstyle blink+2/sentries is old but the fact we see it more this days is more about the flaws in protoss race than an improvement of gameplay :S
+2 blink stalker sentry is a versatile composition capable of dealing with most anything the zerg throws at you pre-late game tier 3 hive. What flaw does this show in the protoss race?
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On August 01 2015 23:22 Cazimirbzh wrote:@KingAlphard ofc it's not only about the maps^^ otherwise i think noone would play sc2 anymore. But they play a huge role in the kind of BO you can do or not. Indeed, Meta evolves when some people try new things. I remember when Flash was struggling a lot vs Z and could go for 3-4 different openings according to situation. Yuffe ( why you fast forge expand) is the intuitive gateway expand that revolves around scouting in sc2. This variant of PetitDrogo goes for assimilator before nexus because his followup requires a lot of gas asap. Also because PetitDrogo likes to defend with units. It delays the nexus a bit but allows to gather gas more quickly for sentries. my bad, the fact that MC retired not a lot of time ago made me want to provoke a bit the new shining foreigner. Too far for you^^ This playstyle blink+2/sentries is old but the fact we see it more this days is more about the flaws in protoss race than an improvement of gameplay :S
It's not older than mid 2014. Early HotS phoenix into colossi/ht or void ray based midgame styles were the standard. Late WoL was colossi/blink stalker. I started playing in 2012 so idk about the 2010-2011 meta, but really you can't say a 2014 build is copied from 2011, when the meta changed completely multiple times inbetween.
+2 blink stalker sentry is a versatile composition capable of dealing with most anything the zerg throws at you pre-late game tier 3 hive. What flaw does this show in the protoss race?
If anything it's a very smart playstyle, you spend all gas in sentries in the early game which build up energy for the midgame timings, and you save minerals for infrastructure (fast third, probes, lots of warpgates). It also produces aggressive and action packed games. The only problem is that zerg still doesn't have an answer to forcefields after 5 years, but that's the case for any composition with sentries.
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@KingAlphard
Once again, i dont like the word "copy". There was a lot of blink/sentries action at the strat with the most common one was drop sentries/ FF ramp + blink into main. You could only perform this style on maps that allow it ( narrow and a lot of choke points). That led to the immortal/sentries/stalker push and you already said the rest of the story. Now it's more ez to pull it as you can do something with your sentries (3base play aka maps) and you can easly go out as there is msc for recall (no need for specific maps).
+@AkashSky
It's a "passive" style where you dont really commit to anything specific. It's a snwoball effect of the blink and FF to be cost effective and be able to retreat easly. As zerg is forced to reproduce units, you slowly gain an advantage.
We can see that protoss has some trouble with poping units. why? expensive :S One ranged, one melee. You have to make a choice and commit.
Dps zealot vs dps stalker...XD. As zealot cannot be cost effective(charge=1hit, still better than 0), you have sentry to compensate in term of economy (gas unit). But as soon as you have to deal with a ranged enemy army, well being cost effective become impossible for zealot.
The bad interactions between gateunits force you to commit to specific units which can be counter and leave you with a good pop but not costeffective to engage. That's why it's better to be unpredictable as a protoss because you cant pull twice the same build on a Bo5/7/9.
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I was watching Jaedong stream in EU yesterday and so many protoss tried going stalker/ sentry. In my opinion, I just don't think it's as effective as other builds you could be going for. Yes your army supply is significantly larger compared to a 2 base colossus or rushing to HT. But you're wasting that supply in fragile defensive units with no dps. A zerg who scouts and knows your build will do something like a ling/ hydra comp that's a pretty hard counter to the build if you don't micro correctly. The fact that you're setting up that 3rd is a nice fallback but you've invested too much into making your blink stalker/ sentries work. If your attack doesn't do considerable damage or you lose too much of your army, you'll get counter attacked and most certainly outright lose or take considerable economic damage to the point where it's impossible to recover.
I would use this build on zerg players that i know will be aggressive early game. Cut off lines of zerg at your natural in range of a photon overcharge and just keep slimming down his army supply. When you know you've got more than him, go for that push and kill a hatch or two. You'll have won the game without having to deal with a straight on army-to-army engagement. Just be wary of muta play/ switches
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EPT
