EPTReally quick and simple Video on the basis of the French PvZ, I know you guys here like to talk about strats so don't hesitate to ask me questions. A lot of questions that you might have are not obvious to me
[G] French PvZ Guide
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
Really quick and simple Video on the basis of the French PvZ, I know you guys here like to talk about strats so don't hesitate to ask me questions. A lot of questions that you might have are not obvious to me | ||
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Eladen
Slovakia54 Posts
EDIT ok, have some questions, hopefully I haven't overlooked the answers in the video .. For example, you mention there are a lot of situations where you dont go for the stalker attack, could you specify some of those? In case of scouting spire, do you transition into stargate, or are the upgraded stalkers enough? I also wanted to ask an obligatory question about swarmhosts, but then I remembered they will be gone soon so I dont care, hehehe | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
In general when I see a lot of units I don't attacks like this (counter attacks are a bitch to deal with) Usually it's when I don't know wtf is going on (weird early game/Scouting denied) that I will mass stalkers just to punish anything that's not optimised. Spire Both stargate and mass stalkers response are viable, I persoannly prefer sg. Sh will be gone yay ~~ | ||
Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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TedBurtle
Belarus201 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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zerge
Germany162 Posts
Good job explaining everything in this short video, i like it. Maybe next time an easy PvT build? | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
- Lots of lings and some roachs -> makes 3 canons, a good simcity and warp defensive zealot when he counter attacks while you kill him at home. - Lots of roachs -> well thats a lot of gas so you shouldn't worry too much about mutalisks and you can stay defensive. But yeah if you make double sg/double robo when scouting both tech it's a very big losing move it cost a lot more for you than for the zerg. Idk If I'm gonna make another one, maybe if theres a cool build that I find myself doing a lot I'll do another video | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
Err I'm gonna sound like a complete noob but what you mean overgrowth has plenty of money? it's the first time I hear this I think. Is the income that higher than other maps? | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
It's the same for your opponent tho so it doesn't really matter, but it's just doesn't feel good to have to build everything later than usual | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3358 Posts
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joshie0808
Canada1023 Posts
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
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Biedrik
United States94 Posts
Also, no need to apologize for your English. It was quite good. | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
5 gas is kinda tricky I guess, I think moving out to the xel naga or even to the third is nice, but go back at the first sign of a roach, if he does it correcttly all of his roachs are going to pop out at the third and you can loses sentries really quickly if you commit. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
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imabigboi
26 Posts
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
The situation you're describing is exactly what the zerg did this game, he had a hive behind the roach hydras, so yeah you still go for the attack ^^ | ||
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imabigboi
26 Posts
And it's not like vs swarm host, if you commit. you dont have enough transition time vs fast viper, the +2 timing is around 11:30 and a fast viper play can knock at your front door at 13:00 with a max roach hydra army. So I feel like if you commit at the +2 blink timing vs fast viper, it's an all in and you have to deal a lot of damage. Otherwise you should transition immediately. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On March 25 2015 04:48 PtitDrogo wrote: You never stop probe production and always take gas Add gates no matter how hard the zerg is all-inning, so you will never fall behind even if you don't move out, adding a couple of canons is really cheap. Ofc make sure to see units being made so keep sending hallucinations. Well yeah, you have to see if they're making units. But I don't know exactly when 3-4 gases means "they're all in" and when it means "they just haven't taken gases 5 and 6 yet because it's too early". What are the most common zerg gas timings? Also, sometimes I see a 4th base, but the zerg hasn't taken all 6 geysers... I don't know exactly what that means. | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
Imabigboi : Forcefields is really good, if you commit (AKA Go in and throw a bunch of forcefields to pick off stuff) you should always always never loses any sentries, if you loses sentries while doing this it was either bad ffs or a bad call to commit (in that sense I do a bad job in this video ) I never "replace" lost sentries unless I like loses all of them, this is a mass sentries build so instead of the 8 you see usually after an oracle you're going up to 13~~. So even losing a few sentries is fine in that sense, it may delay your tech a bit but you compensate that by the awesomeness that is forcefield. Vs Viper push if the guy does the 3 base version you can just mass stalkers on 3 bases and kill it (doesn't sound too pretty but that's in my experience). 13 sentries buys you a LOT of time if you really want to transition tho, that's the point of it, you can easily transition to templar with some warp prism harass behind while just surviving on pure sentries. Really roach hydra viper is not the best way to abuse someone massing sentires like this. | ||
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TedBurtle
Belarus201 Posts
1) It's Awesome! 2) I changed opener to my preferance, and still can hit timings(i think i got 2-3 sentryes less) 3) When armyes starting to fight, my first idea is "I need MICRO", but then i just press all spells on sentryes, and do some trash blink with all my stalkers, A-click and fight....and i Wining O_O (got 10-0 on zergs, with my winstreak to achieve #1 Diamond) 4) I don't need to be precise with all my buildings/timings, except tech. I think in one game i added ~14-16 gates, and it was OK with economy :D Thank you for this style! | ||
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
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No gravitas here
United Kingdom4 Posts
Have you tried going zealot -> stalker & MSC, for a little poke & scouting on the zerg's 3rd in the early game? Instead of just going straight into sentries. I like little scounting/agro vs zerg in the early game, if they over-react its pretty good for you, and this happens every now and again (Im high dia). Thank again, please make more videos! I'd love to see you do a video for gateway expand into stargate oracle/phoenix pressure. | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
In this video I don't talk about all of the openings that you can do depending on the zerg opening because I really believe than executing this build perfectly come first, once you have a good feeling about how it works you can start trying to do other variations. | ||
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imabigboi
26 Posts
On March 25 2015 10:07 PtitDrogo wrote: Imabigboi : Forcefields is really good, if you commit (AKA Go in and throw a bunch of forcefields to pick off stuff) you should always always never loses any sentries, if you loses sentries while doing this it was either bad ffs or a bad call to commit (in that sense I do a bad job in this video ) I never "replace" lost sentries unless I like loses all of them, this is a mass sentries build so instead of the 8 you see usually after an oracle you're going up to 13~~. So even losing a few sentries is fine in that sense, it may delay your tech a bit but you compensate that by the awesomeness that is forcefield. Vs Viper push if the guy does the 3 base version you can just mass stalkers on 3 bases and kill it (doesn't sound too pretty but that's in my experience). 13 sentries buys you a LOT of time if you really want to transition tho, that's the point of it, you can easily transition to templar with some warp prism harass behind while just surviving on pure sentries. Really roach hydra viper is not the best way to abuse someone massing sentires like this. Played some games vs fast vipers recently, and it turns out to deal with it, the keys are having mass stalkers + a good fighting place easy to FF + HT to feedback vipers. The faster the viper rush is, the fewer hydras zerg will have. Any viper rush before 13min, you can think it as some variation of roach max rush+ vipers. To deal with a max roach army, protoss just need mass stalkers + FF, and add some HT to feedback viper, you don't need splash damage(colossus or storm) to deal with the first wave. Stalkers + forcefield is so good  | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
However, more recently, I have trouble against some burrow-roach builds: basically they delay their third base (going down 6:30ish) and then just flood roaches and with the 2nd or 3rd wave their burrow move kicks in. While I am able to hold the 3rd with cannons and a ton of FFs, they then usually go for the middle ground in between natural and 3rd and attack where my army isn't (sometimes, they also just burrow-move into natural and main and try to kill my entire eco). I can't seem to get enough units/cannons out to stop this. I almost feel like this is some kind of BO loss, however, I'd like to hear a more "advanced" (ie less noobish than mine) opinion on the matter edit: typos | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
- Try to transfer probes a bit early before the roachs kicks in, if you can't get your probes to the third you will never be able once the roachs are there and you're missing out on a lot of money - Robo at the third (start it as soon as you see the late third) and only really start to fight once you have an obs OR if he's getting in range of the canon detection. - 3 canons + 1 sentries at nat + overcharge where he's really commiting + all units at the third should usually end up in a cost effective trade for you. Once they have burrow movements you should have at least one immortal and a decent stalker counts with sentries still alive. Also keep making probes even tho you're under presure, you usually shouldn't have max saturation on the third when his roachs comes in so if he's between nat and third just queue up 5 probe on the third nexus. Setting up early vs this is really important also. If you're a bit late on every structures at the third this is gonna seems impossible to hold, in this situation is the set-up is a lot more important than the units counts as Toss. | ||
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tar
Germany991 Posts
I guess I've got to work on my set-up, especially the robo timing and placement (I've always built it back in the main till now). I'll continue the way of the French PvZ for sure | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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FusionSC2
Ireland29 Posts
On July 19 2015 02:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: If the Zerg is going gas first, and you put your probes in gas, etc. do you still get the 19 nexus and wall off, or do you get other units first? Do you mean a 14/14 kinda thing? If so you can go up to 3 gates and expand out of that, if you place the nexus too early, you just get wrecked by speedlings, and they can take the natural behind it and drone up. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On July 19 2015 06:40 FusionSC2 wrote: Do you mean a 14/14 kinda thing? If so you can go up to 3 gates and expand out of that, if you place the nexus too early, you just get wrecked by speedlings, and they can take the natural behind it and drone up. I think so. Maybe 15/14. I show up with the 13 gate probe, see a gas already built with three drones inside, and a pool on the way. How do you know if it's speedlings or a roach push on the way? | ||
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FusionSC2
Ireland29 Posts
On July 19 2015 07:29 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I think so. Maybe 15/14. I show up with the 13 gate probe, see a gas already built with three drones inside, and a pool on the way. How do you know if it's speedlings or a roach push on the way? Stick around with the probe and check how much gas is being mined. It is almost always a ling pressure into expand against a gate first, banes just dont work against gate first. Roaches will take a while to move across the map, so get out gateways units and defend from there. TL;DR: Check the gas mining for as long as possible, also check for pool jiggling for speed. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
Your first zealot is very late (it starts after u build the pylon at ur natural). How do you deal with lings in ur base? Your zealot doesn't pop till 4:40 and lings can be in your base much earlier than that. Should you actually start the zealot before the natural pylon? Edit: I've played this build a few times now, really like it. But still have this issue. Do you adjust your opening vs 15pool? | ||
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TedBurtle
Belarus201 Posts
On July 19 2015 13:03 Protossking wrote: I really like your approach to this build. I have a question about the opening though. Your first zealot is very late (it starts after u build the pylon at ur natural). How do you deal with lings in ur base? Your zealot doesn't pop till 4:40 and lings can be in your base much earlier than that. Should you actually start the zealot before the natural pylon? Edit: I've played this build a few times now, really like it. But still have this issue. Do you adjust your opening vs 15pool? It will force you to do more multitask. You can deal vs lings with some probe micro, or just make zealot earlyer if you too lasy / can't / don't want to micro (this will shift timings to +10-20 seconds ofc.). We assuming it's pool-hatch 15-16, and not 12 pool or else, if scouted early pool, it's not bad idea to always start zealot ASAP. That's my opinion and point of view, if PtitDrogo won't show up soon for better suggestions. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
that good old sentry expand is supposed to be a french build since when ? It's not because MC stopped progaming that you should try to steal his builds edit: At least, it's another proof of protoss weird/bad mechanics | ||
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PtitDrogo
France163 Posts
On July 20 2015 21:37 TedBurtle wrote: It will force you to do more multitask. You can deal vs lings with some probe micro, or just make zealot earlyer if you too lasy / can't / don't want to micro (this will shift timings to +10-20 seconds ofc.). We assuming it's pool-hatch 15-16, and not 12 pool or else, if scouted early pool, it's not bad idea to always start zealot ASAP. That's my opinion and point of view, if PtitDrogo won't show up soon for better suggestions. Nowadays I make the zealot before the third pylone, you get slighty supplyblock but it's fine, if you see pool first and see 4-6 ling presure chronoing the zealot is fine | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On July 21 2015 00:39 Cazimirbzh wrote: ..mouarf...it's a bit the bare minimun for the video, not even the BO.... that good old sentry expand is supposed to be a french build since when ? It's not because MC stopped progaming that you should try to steal his builds edit: At least, it's another proof of protoss weird/bad mechanics Don't think you understand what you're talking about. This playstyle is only about 1 year old and it's nowhere close to how MC used to play. | ||
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Protossking
Australia103 Posts
I use to do gate nexus before my gas and 2nd pylon.. But I've been thinking about it and I think your way is better. You don't have to cut probes and you can react slightly better to speedling all ins (i say slightly because my old variation could deal with them it was just a bit more shaky). I think that the fact you don't cut probes is huge though, seeing as ur main is only just saturated by the time the nat comes up anyway, its not like u need the nat earlier. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
On July 21 2015 08:19 KingAlphard wrote: Don't think you understand what you're talking about. This playstyle is only about 1 year old and it's nowhere close to how MC used to play. It's a Yuffe's opening and MC started the sentries gameplay in WOL when it was still 1 base/2 base play for a long time^^. The only difference is that, now, protoss does it to take third and zerg is already on 3base, thanks to the maps. But if am wrong,plz, can you enlighten me? | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
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LiptoneC
2 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On July 22 2015 00:50 Cazimirbzh wrote: It's a Yuffe's opening and MC started the sentries gameplay in WOL when it was still 1 base/2 base play for a long time^^. The only difference is that, now, protoss does it to take third and zerg is already on 3base, thanks to the maps. But if am wrong,plz, can you enlighten me? It's not simply "thanks to the maps", it's the meta that evolved due to people understanding the game better, learning how to hold early zerg attacks in particular. Maps have had easily defendable naturals since 2012, but this playstyle got popular relatively recently. You can see some things in common between this and the old "sentry expand", since both relied on forcefields for defense, but to say that it is copied from it, that's going way too far. I also don't see how you can call "Yuffe's opening" a very intuitive 1 gate expand (which has been used against terran for ages as well) where you pull probes off the gas and delay your core if you scout a hatch first opening. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 01 2015 07:51 LiptoneC wrote: guys/will be the replays from asus rog? Aeromi told me it's going to happen soon ™ | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
ofc it's not only about the maps^^ otherwise i think noone would play sc2 anymore. But they play a huge role in the kind of BO you can do or not. Indeed, Meta evolves when some people try new things. I remember when Flash was struggling a lot vs Z and could go for 3-4 different openings according to situation. Yuffe ( why you fast forge expand) is the intuitive gateway expand that revolves around scouting in sc2. This variant of PetitDrogo goes for assimilator before nexus because his followup requires a lot of gas asap. Also because PetitDrogo likes to defend with units. It delays the nexus a bit but allows to gather gas more quickly for sentries. but to say that it is copied from it my bad, the fact that MC retired not a lot of time ago made me want to provoke a bit the new shining foreigner. Too far for you^^This playstyle blink+2/sentries is old but the fact we see it more this days is more about the flaws in protoss race than an improvement of gameplay :S | ||
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_Lapack
Japan17 Posts
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On August 01 2015 23:22 Cazimirbzh wrote: This playstyle blink+2/sentries is old but the fact we see it more this days is more about the flaws in protoss race than an improvement of gameplay :S +2 blink stalker sentry is a versatile composition capable of dealing with most anything the zerg throws at you pre-late game tier 3 hive. What flaw does this show in the protoss race? | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On August 01 2015 23:22 Cazimirbzh wrote: @KingAlphard ofc it's not only about the maps^^ otherwise i think noone would play sc2 anymore. But they play a huge role in the kind of BO you can do or not. Indeed, Meta evolves when some people try new things. I remember when Flash was struggling a lot vs Z and could go for 3-4 different openings according to situation. Yuffe ( why you fast forge expand) is the intuitive gateway expand that revolves around scouting in sc2. This variant of PetitDrogo goes for assimilator before nexus because his followup requires a lot of gas asap. Also because PetitDrogo likes to defend with units. It delays the nexus a bit but allows to gather gas more quickly for sentries. my bad, the fact that MC retired not a lot of time ago made me want to provoke a bit the new shining foreigner. Too far for you^^ This playstyle blink+2/sentries is old but the fact we see it more this days is more about the flaws in protoss race than an improvement of gameplay :S It's not older than mid 2014. Early HotS phoenix into colossi/ht or void ray based midgame styles were the standard. Late WoL was colossi/blink stalker. I started playing in 2012 so idk about the 2010-2011 meta, but really you can't say a 2014 build is copied from 2011, when the meta changed completely multiple times inbetween. +2 blink stalker sentry is a versatile composition capable of dealing with most anything the zerg throws at you pre-late game tier 3 hive. What flaw does this show in the protoss race? If anything it's a very smart playstyle, you spend all gas in sentries in the early game which build up energy for the midgame timings, and you save minerals for infrastructure (fast third, probes, lots of warpgates). It also produces aggressive and action packed games. The only problem is that zerg still doesn't have an answer to forcefields after 5 years, but that's the case for any composition with sentries. | ||
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Cazimirbzh
334 Posts
Once again, i dont like the word "copy". There was a lot of blink/sentries action at the strat with the most common one was drop sentries/ FF ramp + blink into main. You could only perform this style on maps that allow it ( narrow and a lot of choke points). That led to the immortal/sentries/stalker push and you already said the rest of the story. Now it's more ez to pull it as you can do something with your sentries (3base play aka maps) and you can easly go out as there is msc for recall (no need for specific maps). +@AkashSky It's a "passive" style where you dont really commit to anything specific. It's a snwoball effect of the blink and FF to be cost effective and be able to retreat easly. As zerg is forced to reproduce units, you slowly gain an advantage. We can see that protoss has some trouble with poping units. why? expensive :S One ranged, one melee. You have to make a choice and commit. Dps zealot vs dps stalker...XD. As zealot cannot be cost effective(charge=1hit, still better than 0), you have sentry to compensate in term of economy (gas unit). But as soon as you have to deal with a ranged enemy army, well being cost effective become impossible for zealot. The bad interactions between gateunits force you to commit to specific units which can be counter and leave you with a good pop but not costeffective to engage. That's why it's better to be unpredictable as a protoss because you cant pull twice the same build on a Bo5/7/9. | ||
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dr3am_b3ing
Canada188 Posts
I would use this build on zerg players that i know will be aggressive early game. Cut off lines of zerg at your natural in range of a photon overcharge and just keep slimming down his army supply. When you know you've got more than him, go for that push and kill a hatch or two. You'll have won the game without having to deal with a straight on army-to-army engagement. Just be wary of muta play/ switches | ||
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