EPTI've been trying Fanta's build, but when my opponent scouts 3 Factories and an early armory, he will most likely go into some Roach/Hydra based play, which is standard vs. Mech. In this case, should I make hellbats at all? I feel like they are just a waste of supply since they are pretty much useless vs. Roach/Hydra. What unit composition should I exactly aim for, when I'm facing that kind of play?
[D][G] An Innovation becoming Reality : Biomech vZ - Page 3
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
I've been trying Fanta's build, but when my opponent scouts 3 Factories and an early armory, he will most likely go into some Roach/Hydra based play, which is standard vs. Mech. In this case, should I make hellbats at all? I feel like they are just a waste of supply since they are pretty much useless vs. Roach/Hydra. What unit composition should I exactly aim for, when I'm facing that kind of play? | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
He missed the Broodlord transition (despite knowing where the spire was), Took a LONG time to deal with that ling counter, Having a lot of SCVs on low patches And most importantly, Waited for half the game having a 5th CC but not using it. And still he made it kinda close. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 15:34 Serotonine wrote: First of all, I'm a low (gold) league player, so excuse me if this quetion is dumb, but I will still ask it. :p I've been trying Fanta's build, but when my opponent scouts 3 Factories and an early armory, he will most likely go into some Roach/Hydra based play, which is standard vs. Mech. In this case, should I make hellbats at all? I feel like they are just a waste of supply since they are pretty much useless vs. Roach/Hydra. What unit composition should I exactly aim for, when I'm facing that kind of play? Hellbats do still take a lot of the damage. While they can't really walk over and deal damage, a Hellbat has almost the same health as a Siege Tank. The Roach Hydra has to kill hte hellbats first (taking siege damage) or ignore the hellbats to kill the tanks, which puts them in the hellbat splash range. You need the hellbats so the roach hydra can't engage straight up. When you max out, feel free to get rid of hellbats for any other unit, but until then, they're good  | ||
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
And what Marine-Marauder rate should I aim for? To ask in other words, if I have 6 Barracks, how many should have Reactors, and how many Tech Labs? Please also note that all my questions are referring to the case when I'm facing a Roach/Hydra based composition, mostly without mutas, sometimes with Viper support, but that is not common in my league due to the fact that you can't just simply a-move Vipers  | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:14 Serotonine wrote: Ok, I did actually think that they might be used to tank damage. Should I also make Thors when the opponent has no mutas, just Roach/Hydra? The Roach/Hydra phase we're talking about is probably when you, as Terran, are just having your third up and running. YOu'll be on 3 factories (2x Techlab, 1x Reactor) and adding two more. If your opponent goes R/H, you need to invest all the gas and production you have in Hellbats. If you make Thors instead of Tanks, you might get a good flank on you and kill your army. Once you notice he stops pressuring you or you feel like your building wall + Siege Tanks are sufficient, you can go for a couple of Thors. Remember to keep harrassing/scanning for a Spire/Swarm Host/Viper transition, they require different responses if you want to stay on Mech: Thors/Ravens/Vikings respectively! With this style, however, you'll get up to Marauder/Marine relatively quickly, which is much more versatile and can deal with Mutalisk reasonably. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:14 Serotonine wrote: And what Marine-Marauder rate should I aim for? To ask in other words, if I have 6 Barracks, how many should have Reactors, and how many Tech Labs? Please also note that all my questions are referring to the case when I'm facing a Roach/Hydra based composition, mostly without mutas, sometimes with Viper support, but that is not common in my league due to the fact that you can't just simply a-move Vipers As for this, I think 1 Tech Lab and 5 Reactors does the trick. Because of your high Tank count, you'll not need the Marauders for anti roach as much. Don't forget Concussive! 200/200 Roach Hydra dies to almost every reasonable maxed ground composition of Terran without proper support. | ||
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:24 Serotonine wrote: So as I understand, my basic composition should be MMM/Hellbat/Tank with a few Thors, do I get this right? The main selling point of this hybrid style is its ability to adapt to the Zergs composition. Against Roach Hydra you'll get pretty far with MMM/Tank. You'll get a stronger mech backbone to your army than with the regular bio into biomech (Thor/Hellbat), but the additions are all based on what your opponent does. Verse mutalisk, you don't need a lot of Tank/Hellbat, for example. You aim to have an army of MMM that is versatile, fast and strong. You reinforce it with upgraded Hellbats/Tanks/Thors(/Mines) to counter the opponents tech. Hellbats deal with mass Zergling compositions and are just nice to have because of the high hitpoints and the splash. Tanks are excellent verse Banelings, Roaches, Hydras, Infestors and pretty good against Banelings. Thors are strong all around and mostly used against Ultralisk or Mutalisk. Mines are more of an emergency "I didn't scout the broodlord OMFG" tech. Lastly, always have at least one, preferably 2 reactored starports in the lategame for Vikings. To put it into your words, your basic midgame composition to secure a third is Hellbat + Whatever you need against the Zergs opening Tech (Tanks OR Thors). Your lategame composition is a backbone of Bio with Mech units complementary to the Zergs tech. | ||
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
But this is obviously also map dependent, for example Overgrowth (where this case happened) has many ways to get to my base, but I think on maps like Habitation Station and Merry Go Round this is less likely to happen. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:31 Serotonine wrote: I also considered adding some Sensor Towers, because it happened to me, that my opponent abused the immobility of my Tank heavy army, and when I moved out, he just went around, straight into my base, and this emerged into a baserace situation where I lost all my CCs. After that, he easily flanked me and destroyed my Tanks, because I didnt have any scans to help me taking a good engagement At 4 bases you can start adding additional Orbitals. Sensor Towers depend on the map, obviously, but I like to have one in my Main to detect Mutalisk, and one at the 3rd/4rth, whichever is further from my rally / more accesible. Sensor Towers are never 'necessary', but they're a really useful building to have a couple of. Especially in Gold league where you should be able to spare the funds. | ||
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
Most likely, I will only have Reapers, a few Hellions and 2-3 Cloak Banshees (my first 2 Tanks might pop if I don't mess up anything) when this timing hits. I was thinking of adding a Tech Lab to my factory, and building a second Barracks into the Factory's reactor (+Bunkers) immediately when I scout the possibility of this push. What do you guys think about this? Or should I be able to defend this with the Banshees? Personally I don't think that 2-3 of them will scare 25+ Roaches away, and Hellions are obviously demolished by Roaches ez. I can try poking into my opponents base with those to try forcing him retreat, but in most cases he will be able to defend that with a few Spines/Queens. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 19:01 Serotonine wrote: My other issue when doing Fanta's build, is defending the common push at ~10:30, with 20-30, +1/+1 Roaches. Most likely, I will only have Reapers, a few Hellions and 2-3 Cloak Banshees (my first 2 Tanks might pop if I don't mess up anything) when this timing hits. I was thinking of adding a Tech Lab to my factory, and building a second Barracks into the Factory's reactor (+Bunkers) immediately when I scout the possibility of this push. What do you guys think about this? Or should I be able to defend this with the Banshees? Personally I don't think that 2-3 of them will scare 25+ Roaches away, and Hellions are obviously demolished by Roaches ez. I can try poking into my opponents base with those to try forcing him retreat, but in most cases he will be able to defend that with a few Spines/Queens. You should have the first tanks out, possible go for mines instead of hellbats. Sim City + some Tanks + Banshees holds this off easilly. | ||
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
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JanLui
France50 Posts
[SPL2014] SKT1 vs CJ Set3 Out boxer 1 rax FE (CC before 2nd depot) and up to 4 marines take both 2gas + build bunker go factory + reactor then starport + armory and reactor with barrack produce 4 hellions then hellbats and medivacs >>drop 2nd barrack + 3rd reactor for 2xmarines + 1marauder cycle (+1 armor mech) | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
On May 22 2014 18:37 Serotonine wrote: Sorry I'm always editing my posts after you answer lol :p I always aim to get the techlabs with my barracks, This speeds the tanks up. The banshees can damage the roaches on their way in and hellions can be used to delay the push (don't throw them, you may need them against the ling followup). Position your tanks carefully, often, there's a space in the main that covers your entrance. If you die to this occasionslly, Maybe provide a replay !Glgl! | ||
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
On May 26 2014 10:35 Helikptrfisk wrote: You start off with 2 + 1 factorys, 1 + 4-5 rax and 1 starport. When do you add more production? And what do you add? When my 3rd gets saturated my money skyrockets and i cant get rid off it. (Ofcourse my macro is terrible.) If you constantly keep producing units of 7 Barracks (5 Reactor, 2 Tech Lab) and 3 Factories (2 Tech Lab, 1 Reactor), you shouldnt have that much money floating, at least that's what my experiences are. If you really have that much extra money, add sensor towers and extra Orbital Commands, maybe Planetaries and turrets. When you have your 4th base up and running, feel free to add extra production buildings (Barracks, Factories, Starports), but only if your bank is really that big. And don't forget the upgrades for both bio+mech. Also Stim, Combat Shields, Concussive shells and Blueflame. For an endgame infrastructure, I would add 2 more Factories (for a total of 5, with 2 Reactors and 3 Tech Labs), 1 or 2 more Starports, depending on what do you want to do. If you want a sky-switch (Ravens or Battlecruisers), you can add 2-3 more Starports with Tech Labs and a Fusion Core. But basically, everything depends on what your opponent does. For example, if he has a lot of mutas, you want to make a crazy amount of turrets with extra minerals. | ||
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Helikptrfisk
Sweden35 Posts
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Serotonine
Hungary17 Posts
On May 26 2014 19:46 Helikptrfisk wrote: I dont want to upgrade all 4 upgrades. I wanna stay on attack-upgrades only to get the push going earlier. Will try to just macro better =)). Thx Which build do you use? I use Fantasy's which gets 2 Engi bays and 1 Armory, for +1/+1 bio and +1 mech attack early on. I tend to add one more Armory, for +2/+2 bio and +2/+1 mech. | ||
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