An innovation becoming reality : Biomech versus Zerg
Introduction:
The mine nerf and the concomitant tank buff from early autumn 2013 were initially designed to promote variety in Terran versus Zerg play. Balance considerations aside, it appears to have been a success half a year later. We saw the emergence of a variation in the form of hellbat MMM, where the build were strictly identical and of several new way of playing TvZ coming from Korea.
Mech came back to life with the merging of air and ground upgrade with a new flavour based on viking/thor defense versus mutalisk, made possible by a quick double armory. The FlaSh/DRG game in Proleague on King Sejong Station perfectly demonstrated this newfound synergy. However a counter composition quickly came up and InoVation lost a wonderful game 2 on Heavy Rain against Soulkey's Muta/Swarmhost army during the korean qualifier for IEM Katowice. Mech went still strong for sometimes but quickly felt out off favor in Korea as zerg players mastered the Swarmhost/Muta style of play
Around the same time one of the best illustration of how little thing can change the pace of a game was the emergence of the three reaper build coming out of an 11 rax and an 11 gas which allowed heavy aggression on the Zerg queens, and promoted an alternative follow up consisting of hellions and banshees after the initial harassment in order to prevent the 70 drones no unit syndrome. One of the first televised games using this three reaper style was of another whole style and Fantasy demonstrated that HotS was far from being figured out when he added 2 ebays, 1 armory and 2factory to his initial 3cc build off 3reapers on Outboxer. That was one of this awe moment for me and I was wondering what was going on and how Fanta was going to make this biomech build work. It worked for him but had no real follow up from other Terrans, mech being the go-to build if you weren't willing to play straight up bio mine/hellbat.
Early may Inno started to stream again, Reality played a wacky game on Merry Go Round and Bunny defeated Snute 2-0 in Fragbite masters. Three events with no other correlation than the emergence of a new way of going biomech, which looked standardized.
Why going bio mech?
Today both bio and mech vZ are really hard to play, blizzard is even considering a buff to compensate for that fact. The issue is ironically the same in both case: dealing with mutalisks. While the bio solution could be to simply prevent the zerg from reaching an insane economy (and that's what blizzard is aiming at), outside of Mvpesque timings mech play will always allow the zerg to reach that stage and there is no real innovation available outside of using widow mines in pure mech armies. Considering both the prevalence of the problem since WoL days and the fact nobody used widow mine deterrence against mutalisks it is safe to assume that it isn't realistic, a logical explanation would be the impact of locusts on widow mines while the current muta/sh style used.
This is where bio mech shines, marines being relatively good versus swarmhost (when they can avoid them or quickly strike between locust waves on some rare occasions. At the same time marines are exceptional against mutalisks who cannot even dream to fight a good marine ball backed up by a few thors composition head on. If you can still get the amount of tanks necessary to obliterate everything except an important number of ultralisks on the ground or a Stephanoesque number of locusts; like in every mech game passing 12minutes, while dealing with mutalisks you'd be in a wonderful place (eg Inno vs SH/Muta). At the same time the mobility provided by marines would allow to expand quicker if your opponent was going for a heavy number of swarm host, to threaten them a bit more easily (hence reducing the opportunity for the locust to get on your front) while getting the economy needed to get a good number of ravens (or even considering a full sky switch ala Mvp) in order to close out the game.
Furthermore, going for an (at the moment) unusual strategy means that there is no clear answer for the zerg, both as far compositions and build order go. Your opponent answer will be probably suboptimal, and even when it'll become figured there is still the fact that it looks extremely similar to a pure mech opening. Today MajOr even pulled off a variation where he went for almost the exact textboot opening for viking-mech, which is a mindgame going on for 12 minutes. Even if pure mech falls out of favor in Korea or in the Pro scene, it'll still be viable as a suboptimal strategy that rely on your opponent not dealing correctly with it and the layer of mindgame between mech and biomech will still be here for us.
The biomech pattern: strategy and build orders
I wish to differentiate these two concepts, utilizing strategy as a broad plan going into the mech (I'm going to play Biomech versus this zerg on King Sejong Station, going for a strong mid/late timing/composition) as opposed to the build order which is the detailed plan (which may or may not survive the early game) used to achieve this strategy. I don't claim to detain the truth or whatever about this and if there are more accurate concepts I'd gladly used them over this arbitrary distinction.
Reality, Innovation and Bunny used a similar strategy in their games, going for a strong hellbat/tank/MMM composition with a few thors in the mix, hitting pre hive timings whenever they could to maximize their army advantage. They used various build and openings which will be discussed a bit later but followed the same pattern. The opening were hugely different, including a very cute reaper 3cc into blue flame hellion from bunny (that build in itself was so sick) but aimed at 3cc 3fac 1rax 1port 1armory infrastructure to go into the mid game. The only variation from the viking based mech is that you cut 1armory. You can totally use your own mech opening to do that (eg 3reapers into hellion/cloack banshee/3rd cc/1 armory instead of two). You can defend basically everything if you went for some banshees, including a two base muta into a muta/roach all in as demonstrated here by Innovation (Inno vs 2b muta) With the saved gas you'll start this wonderful upgrade that's called stimpack. If the pattern is followed by everyone for the mech upgrade (only attack to begin with), there is a variation from Appolo's favorite terran hope who used a double ebay build where Inno and Reality use a single ebay build (in itself it is one of the most interesting development of recent korean terran play both in TvP with the 4:00ish ebay builds leading to a quick 3-1 and in those TvZ).
Then the bio switch comes in and they add 4 or 5 raxes, all with reactors and start to pump out marines as the main mineral intensive units, the hellbat production becoming the lowest priority. In order to get a max army these three gentlemen went for a total infrastructure of 5 to 6 raxes, 3 factories and 1 starport (respectively 5 reactors/1 tech lab, 1 reactor/2 techlab and 1 reactor) with 1 or 2 ebays and an armory for the upgrades. Then more (2 or 3) raxes are added in order to ensure a sufficient production of bio units.
I'd say that the main point in favor or a strong standardization of biomech is the initial reality game in Proleague
where Reality holds (remarkably) SoO's roach aggression in the early and still follow the biomech pattern already identified. Inno had a similar game that I can't find again on his stream where he holded a roach/bane attack and transitionned into the 1 armory 3 factories into more raxes production facility setup.
Getting from there
To there
I'll just add the go to build used by our Code S hope Inno but feel free to try your own stuff, it is way more about getting somewhere than how you get there. I'll try to add some more when I'll get some half decent replays to go with.
A standard 2reaper expand:
12 rax 12 gas
Snd cc after your second reaper is started,
Factory as soon as possible, then your second gas and your reactor on your rax.
Starport, switch the rax and the factory, make a tech lab with the rax for your port.
Produce hellions continuously then two cloack banshees.
Get your 3rd cc whenever possible
An armory, double gas on your natural and two factory (your second banshee will end around this time) and a reactor on the starport. Don't use it unless you want vikings to deal with pesky 2base mutalisk builds.
You get a defensive ebay if you see fast mutas, you can add it later if not.
When you start your thors 1 & 2 you can get your ebay(s) and start a techlab on your rax for your bio upgrades. Definitely land your 3rd now if it's not done yet and get both the geysers.
Add raxes.
Enjoy yourself
Conclusion:
I am willing to discuss everything presented here and it isn't a revealed truth. I think there is a clear pattern leading to a standardization of the strategy through the use of multiple build orders leading to a common mid game play. There are still a few unknown points that I wish to present here. The upgrades: how many ebays, when to start +1 bio, when to add a second ebay if you do so. The maps: at the moment it has been mainly used on smaller maps and the viability on either Alterzim or 11-5 Waystation is doubtful. Will the hellbat buff make the standard bio build so strong that everything else doesn't deserved to be used? If the buff comes through it will definitely shake up the whole TvZ once again. How many mindgames? The fact it can be both a pure mech or a biomech build until the 12th minute is a huge advantage, MajOr even used a viking versus Serral to deny scouting, it's definitely a tool that'll be used a lot in short term and its long term viability
It has been the funniest TvZ style to play since a very long time for me, providing every tool you need with decent upgrades and a way to ignore the usual rigidities of most terran styles comiting yourself on either bio + a few mech units (late WoL with heavy tank/thor play and MMM was the closest to the current biomech) or mech. Its flexibility is quite a feet and I hope it could become a new standard.
I'll add my own replays later on when I can get a decent game going on.
Special thanks to aAaOnly for his help and advices
A weird game where I chose to 14cc on Merry Go round, teching to cloack banshee before my 3rd. My opponent went for a sizeable amount of roaches into a muta switch, I got a very good timing to kill both his 4th and 5th (and made a huge mistake, could've got the 3rd instead of backing) then the game got really weird, I misplayed a lot and my plan wasn't good (should've expanded toward his expo and not toward his main too set up a smoother push). Tons of thing to improve but it's because there is a ton of room to play with.
http://drop.sc/380797 I totally misplayed the early game but read the 2base muta build and was able to react to it. Both my play and my opponent play were far from stellar but the defense against the early mutas was decent.
I mentionned it in the introduction but if the idea in term of composition is the same the way Fanta did it was very different, going for a double ebay as the same time as his factories 2 & 3 and for a while it was just THE thing Fanta did in THAT game.
And suddenly we have a bunch of people going for the same composition Fantasy was going for in a very similar way, even when the game are wacky due to early game aggression happening.
As far as the build goes I'll try to get some replays to illustrate it but it's based on standardized mech builds for the most part (you can open with either 3 reapers, 2 reapers or a cc first, then it's cloack vs your 3rd timing but all of this are little variations that don't really matter as far as the mid game is going to be played out)
Looks interesting, but it's really hard to read. Try adding line breaks in between paragraphs and hiding the youtube link within text (i.e. type [url =Youtubevideo.com]Reality vs. soO on Merry Go Round[/ url]) to clean it up some.
Also, [ big] and [ b] your titles to make them stand out more.
Also, build orders stand out a lot more if you put them in [ list] or [ code] format.
Nice thing about bio/mech in particular is that it allows you to spend more of your resources for your army. Frequently with mech vs. zerg, the terran floats extra minerals and spends it on throw away harass units or on extra command centers they don't really need. With bio, they usually have a ton of extra gas they can't use. With bio/mech, all your money can go into your army far more efficiently. It requires more infrastructure and it's likely harder to execute due to having to control a wider variety of units simultaneously, but strategically it seems like a very powerful middle ground between the mobility of bio and the raw power of mech.
Been playing biomech since late-WoL. TvZ is my best w/r but I play very casually and placed only platinum last season. So glad that someone is actually doing a formal guide for it and that this style is taking a hold on the professional scene.
I don't know how to quantify it clearly, but the biggest strength of bio-mech is versatility in a way that cannot be matched by any other Terran builds. It is possible to make minor, surgical, and highly effective decisions with this style.
Even if playing a standard bio or mech style, when floating resources, tech to biomech! I understand that bank is important to remax after a big clash - but let's be real: Terrans are not best suited for big clashes. Both other races have production mechanics that will easily outpace a Terran of equal skill. Instead, slowly teching out (into bio if opening mech, or into mech if opening bio) and slowly replacing ineffecient units with suicide drops will allow a Terran to create a custom tailored army.
Both of you are highlighting something I didn't underlined enough: the flexibility of this play style. If you add starports you're literally free to build every terran unit. You can adapt your composition to a variety of factors in the mid and late game, which feels incredibly new as a Terran player : income, push pathes, enemy composition, overrall plan (nothing prevents you from turtling into mass raven), and you should be able to react directly to any Zerg Transition in the lategame.
In his game versus Snute bunny switched to a heavy bio composition after his initial trades but we saw Bbyong in the last Proleague game of round robin 3 for CJ Entus going for a sky army in order to fight swarmhosts.
Trying to find your own solutions to a new set of problem created by a new playstyle (for those who aren't as hipster as you plogamer :p) is both entertaining and challenging. One thing I should really fix in my play is the lack of blue flame (I never use it vZ normally T.T) and to back this up use some hellbat drops, they get the upgrades necessary to roast drones and it's a really effective way to throw a few hellbats off in order to get a better army.
oh im so glad this is finally becoming a thing to the pro scene and general public. The last time -I posted when the tank change / mine nerf went life- I was advertising this playstyle i got soooo much shit from people.
The Bbyong game versus hyvaa that you mention for the raven usage are also very interesting for the opening and the follow up. Unlike the other terrans you highlighted where the general setup is 1 rax, 3 fact and 1 starport Bbyong opts for a CC first into 2 rax opening. He gets bio upgrades fairly early with this (stim and combat shield), adds a factory and a starport and pushes with a hellbat, marine, marauder, medivac composition. Even getting these early bio upgrades Bbyong stays on these 2 barracks for the entire game and instead adds more factories for a ratio of units more favoured towards mech. Like the other terrans he upgrades from one ebay and one armoury prioritizing the attacks upgrades for both. As he takes his fourth base the setup is 2 rax, 5 factories, 1 starport.
On another note: Gumiho also used a wonky bio-mech composition in his game against Billowy although the fact that it was on maze and that he had to use a very greedy opening to get there makes me think that it was just a 1 time build order going for a timing.
I was a bit disappointed by the bbyong game which, if we ignore the opening, was a standard mech vs SH game with the possibility of a bio switch in terms of upgrades but not in terms of actual production. Still you can use his way of dealing with SH with the more conventionnal biomech I've attempted to describe just by skipping the actual bio production once the SH number gets too high and teching to an air army. MajOr game involved double upgrade for mech and should be a more suited variation to play this style (3/3 vikings and BC are pretty good)
On May 16 2014 06:08 sAsImre wrote: I was a bit disappointed by the bbyong game which, if we ignore the opening, was a standard mech vs SH game with the possibility of a bio switch in terms of upgrades but not in terms of actual production. Still you can use his way of dealing with SH with the more conventionnal biomech I've attempted to describe just by skipping the actual bio production once the SH number gets too high and teching to an air army. MajOr game involved double upgrade for mech and should be a more suited variation to play this style (3/3 vikings and BC are pretty good)
The major advantage of biomech is that it gives you that versatility. If mech would wind up being stronger, you can just transition into it.
I tried this out when Fantasy did this versus life but I konda freestyles it. Thx for the guide. I really like this style and will continue to practice with it to see if it will replace my Bio or Mech tendencies.
My Brother does this since kinda forever (even before HotS came out) - can't we give him some credits? :D
On a serious note: I think it's a nice thing to do because whenever I played against him (I'm Zerg) I struggled because the only thing that really looked good against this were Broodlords
Do you have links for the liquid bunny and major games?
Also I was looking around for old builds from Byun doing something similar to this: 3 or 4 factory opening and then transitioning into bio thereafter, but the gom vods on youtube is so messy that i cant find them. Anyone know where i can find them?
Considering both the prevalence of the problem since WoL days and the fact nobody used widow mine deterrence against mutalisks it is safe to assume that it isn't realistic, a logical explanation would be the impact of locusts on widow mines while the current muta/sh style used.
Are you trying to say that because nobody used it, its obviously bad? Did the current players figure out the game completely?
We had a few examples in the past of this strategy working if i remember correctly(hello revival), and that's it.
When terran goes bio, he cant mass produce mines and usually need them in the front as the splash unit ;
When terran goes mech, he usually relies on tons of turrets which are not really blocking the mutas/destroying them in any way, OR he keeps thors at home OR he as a viking/raven fleet. We know that mech can be extremely supply efficient, so why not use more mine traps?
He goes for a very interesting and unusual build (something similar to the build bomber used in game 1 against JD in WCS AM ro32) with a fast 3rd cc followed up with blue flame hellions.
I might be way off as I'm coming back to starcraft after stopping at the end of WoL, but this style that everyone is saying is super new and innovative Doesn't seem far off at all from the standard BioTank that everyone used during wings, is it just that it hasn't been widely used during HoTS or am I missing something?
I know most people know this, but lets not forget that patch Patch 2.0.12 decreased the tank fire cooldown.
"Siege Mode attack cooldown decreased from 3.00 to 2.80" - especially for those who have been away from the game for a while. This was in tandem with the nerf to widow mine splash damage "Sentinel Missiles now deal reduced damage to units caught within its splash radius... " to try and promote less Marine Mine which was ruling TvZ at the time.
I personally find tanks to be very hard to deal with, but admittedly I try to play Roach/Hydra probably "too much" in ZvT. Blinding cloud seems like the best way to deal with them at the moment.
I also find playing vs tanks still more enjoyable than mass widow mine!
On May 17 2014 10:42 Jakuu wrote: I might be way off as I'm coming back to starcraft after stopping at the end of WoL, but this style that everyone is saying is super new and innovative Doesn't seem far off at all from the standard BioTank that everyone used during wings, is it just that it hasn't been widely used during HoTS or am I missing something?
Biotank in wings was a little different in that the core of the army was the marine/medivac/(marauder sometimes) while the tanks were mostly there to make sure the bio didn't die as easily to banelings. So the tanks were often more of a support, especially at the end of WoL. In this style, neither the bio or the mech are support, both can do reasonably well without the other and stay about even with each other in army size and upgrades, but in combination they can dominate. The family of builds detailed in this thread is the most efficient way to get to that stage as opposed to the builds in Wings and also earlier HotS which had a production flow of 5 barracks-->factory units instead of 3 factory --> bio from 5 rax
this style is the future of tvz. iloveoov saw this months before anyone else.....such god
I still believe there some unrealized weaknesses to this style. I am a little suspicious at the lack of map presence from 9 minutes until around 15 minutes, and I think that once zergs learn to recognize the style they can be greedier with their tech, as in Maru vs Effort in proleague recently, where Effort gets really fast broodlords. I also see potential for abuse with mass muta, because money is pretty tight as you add on barracks so you don't have room for turrets but don't have that much anti-air either, and thors are pretty immobile. But obviously as zerg counters to this are explored the style will also develop more too.
this style is the future of tvz. iloveoov saw this months before anyone else.....such god
I still believe there some unrealized weaknesses to this style. I am a little suspicious at the lack of map presence from 9 minutes until around 15 minutes, and I think that once zergs learn to recognize the style they can be greedier with their tech, as in Maru vs Effort in proleague recently, where Effort gets really fast broodlords. I also see potential for abuse with mass muta, because money is pretty tight as you add on barracks so you don't have room for turrets but don't have that much anti-air either, and thors are pretty immobile. But obviously as zerg counters to this are explored the style will also develop more too.
I think maru's mistake was not having a 2nd starport, he was only producing 2 vikings at a time (could never even havce a high enough medvac count to drop, which is a standard response to slower, more immobile hive tech units such as broodlords).
Mass muta can be defended in the early stage with thor widow mine viking and a couple turretts, and it shoudln't be a problem to get onto a 4th base to provide more income. Realistically, bio mech is only playable with 4-5 base economy otherwise you cannot switch effeciently between the two
this style is the future of tvz. iloveoov saw this months before anyone else.....such god
I still believe there some unrealized weaknesses to this style. I am a little suspicious at the lack of map presence from 9 minutes until around 15 minutes, and I think that once zergs learn to recognize the style they can be greedier with their tech, as in Maru vs Effort in proleague recently, where Effort gets really fast broodlords. I also see potential for abuse with mass muta, because money is pretty tight as you add on barracks so you don't have room for turrets but don't have that much anti-air either, and thors are pretty immobile. But obviously as zerg counters to this are explored the style will also develop more too.
Inno's response to fast mutas as been the go-to mech answer, thors and vikings (the only case where he uses his starport until he gets his bio prod going). I've just added a weird replay where the Z went for a mass muta quite early on.
As far as brood lord go I think there is a lot of room timing wise to slow down the zerg economy once you realize he's going for some t3 tech (blord/ultra). You army isn't big but neither his.
So I have been trying this with decent results! 2 biggest problems so far encountered are when the zerg goes for mass roach and a couple of mutas. Also I have noticed zergs tend to go Roach Hydra because they think its mech, so just gotta hit em before a viper timing. This is in diamond btw and will continue to practice this!
this style is the future of tvz. iloveoov saw this months before anyone else.....such god
I still believe there some unrealized weaknesses to this style. I am a little suspicious at the lack of map presence from 9 minutes until around 15 minutes, and I think that once zergs learn to recognize the style they can be greedier with their tech, as in Maru vs Effort in proleague recently, where Effort gets really fast broodlords. I also see potential for abuse with mass muta, because money is pretty tight as you add on barracks so you don't have room for turrets but don't have that much anti-air either, and thors are pretty immobile. But obviously as zerg counters to this are explored the style will also develop more too.
I think maru's mistake was not having a 2nd starport, he was only producing 2 vikings at a time (could never even havce a high enough medvac count to drop, which is a standard response to slower, more immobile hive tech units such as broodlords).
Mass muta can be defended in the early stage with thor widow mine viking and a couple turretts, and it shoudln't be a problem to get onto a 4th base to provide more income. Realistically, bio mech is only playable with 4-5 base economy otherwise you cannot switch effeciently between the two
Yes, exactly. A normal bio opening offers mobility from 10:45 on, meaning zerg can't get hive tech units anywhere near as quickly, but the fake mech opening offers less mobility throughout the game unless you add on a second starport to explode in the medivac count. However, I think the much more powerful army offsets this weakness, as it can actually deal with hive tech and you don't have as much of a massive incentive to avoid it.
On May 18 2014 09:22 GumBa wrote: So I have been trying this with decent results! 2 biggest problems so far encountered are when the zerg goes for mass roach and a couple of mutas. Also I have noticed zergs tend to go Roach Hydra because they think its mech, so just gotta hit em before a viper timing. This is in diamond btw and will continue to practice this!
you can send in a few replays but roach/muta is actually the comp i'm the most confortable again. Just be sure to start tanks immediately after the thors 1 & 2 (one cycle of production) and keep your banshees alive. The 1st replay i've posted is versus something similar but i'll try to get you an Inno vod about that. (the vod tagged Inno vs 2b muta is against a roach/muta all in)
Against roach hydra i let them get vipers, just dropping a lot and spreading your tanks correctly.
Same pattern: 2 fact opening (Failed reaper into failed rush into mech opening) Barracks explosion w/ stimpack Going for some kind of pre-hive timing (You might have to watch it a few times to see how desirous Maru was for this, but the frustrations turned him to just a Deny-the-Fourth Drop-the-rest mode.) Which brings next to:
Newish defense for timing and build in general. Light Roach/Hydra w/ ling runby for keeping economy on back foot. Secure equal upgrades. In linked game, upgrades are behind but it isn't hard to imagine a more standard game with +3/+3 zerg finishing at around the same time as +3/+3 terran. Anyways, if there was a pre-hive, it would be against some meaty 2/2. Which brings to
Newish grappling phase of early lategame Broodlord/Viper/Hydra isn't new. Yet, just looking at Effort's mastery of counterattacks, this is a composition that you can pressure a fourth base with and keep the Terran locked down as compared to swarm host early. Swarm Host/Broodlord/Viper/Hydras(under 10). At advanced stages, banelings from your normal group of roving lings. Now the bio seems out of place. Sniping broodlords is a difficult task, both for SH and later bane reasons.
We're no strangers here to zerg surviving to lategame with an excellent economy and tech and just killing us. Effort's play here just shows more polish and a few individual concepts put together into a stronger whole.
I'm not giving my final words on real takeaways from this game, I still need to try it out in practice with more tame early games. That game saw more cloaked banshees than maybe necessary and that might be better, even though trades were good. There's other options instead of a fourth at that timing that could be explored. But can the zerg reliably have even upgrades and early hive even against true biomech, with later 3/3 hydra backed Broodlords and Vipers BEFORE Swarm Hosts?
On May 18 2014 09:22 GumBa wrote: So I have been trying this with decent results! 2 biggest problems so far encountered are when the zerg goes for mass roach and a couple of mutas. Also I have noticed zergs tend to go Roach Hydra because they think its mech, so just gotta hit em before a viper timing. This is in diamond btw and will continue to practice this!
you can send in a few replays but roach/muta is actually the comp i'm the most confortable again. Just be sure to start tanks immediately after the thors 1 & 2 (one cycle of production) and keep your banshees alive. The 1st replay i've posted is versus something similar but i'll try to get you an Inno vod about that. (the vod tagged Inno vs 2b muta is against a roach/muta all in)
Against roach hydra i let them get vipers, just dropping a lot and spreading your tanks correctly.
Thx that would be nice! I will play abit more then send in replays refine it a bit you know? Been having fun with it so far.
As far as the Maru games goes, I'd say that his opening weakened significantly the pre-hive timing. If he did more damage he could've either do the same drop wise and get ahead enough to starve effort or just transition into sky T with a 4th and a 5th base. (once you get enough ravens you should win almost everytime).
Same pattern: 2 fact opening (Failed reaper into failed rush into mech opening) Barracks explosion w/ stimpack Going for some kind of pre-hive timing (You might have to watch it a few times to see how desirous Maru was for this, but the frustrations turned him to just a Deny-the-Fourth Drop-the-rest mode.) Which brings next to:
Newish defense for timing and build in general. Light Roach/Hydra w/ ling runby for keeping economy on back foot. Secure equal upgrades. In linked game, upgrades are behind but it isn't hard to imagine a more standard game with +3/+3 zerg finishing at around the same time as +3/+3 terran. Anyways, if there was a pre-hive, it would be against some meaty 2/2. Which brings to
Newish grappling phase of early lategame Broodlord/Viper/Hydra isn't new. Yet, just looking at Effort's mastery of counterattacks, this is a composition that you can pressure a fourth base with and keep the Terran locked down as compared to swarm host early. Swarm Host/Broodlord/Viper/Hydras(under 10). At advanced stages, banelings from your normal group of roving lings. Now the bio seems out of place. Sniping broodlords is a difficult task, both for SH and later bane reasons.
We're no strangers here to zerg surviving to lategame with an excellent economy and tech and just killing us. Effort's play here just shows more polish and a few individual concepts put together into a stronger whole.
I'm not giving my final words on real takeaways from this game, I still need to try it out in practice with more tame early games. That game saw more cloaked banshees than maybe necessary and that might be better, even though trades were good. There's other options instead of a fourth at that timing that could be explored. But can the zerg reliably have even upgrades and early hive even against true biomech, with later 3/3 hydra backed Broodlords and Vipers BEFORE Swarm Hosts?
effort's counter attacks only did a lot of damage because of the map design of king sejong station, not because he is a master at counter attacks but beceause he played the map well
I have no experience playing either bio or mech so I have a perhaps stupid question =))
What is the best response to ultralisks? Is it marauders or will the tank/hellbat take care of them? Would rather like to spend that gas on other stuff than rauders. Also then I would have to get techlabs on the barracks.
On May 19 2014 22:18 Helikptrfisk wrote: I have no experience playing either bio or mech so I have a perhaps stupid question =))
What is the best response to ultralisks? Is it marauders or will the tank/hellbat take care of them? Would rather like to spend that gas on other stuff than rauders. Also then I would have to get techlabs on the barracks.
Against ultra i go for marau and a bit more thors in the later stages.
While maxing you will have the ressources to add 2/3 raxes with tech labs while taking your 4th, it should help. If you're caught by surprise you can use the tech lab from your factories as emergency add ons I guess.
if you go mech you add more thors than tanks. The most important thing is where you fight. If your simcity is decent there is no way you should die to an ultra attack, but it's going to be tricky if you go out in the open. Alternatively mass thor/hellbat rapes ultra.
On May 18 2014 15:04 Gamlet wrote: In Effort-Maru game terran doesnt try to emp vipers/Zerg can add some ultralisks/
He didn't build ghosts, and frankly I've never seen anybody seriously advising building ghosts ever in the TvZ matchup for EMP.
On May 18 2014 19:45 sAsImre wrote: As far as the Maru games goes, I'd say that his opening weakened significantly the pre-hive timing. If he did more damage he could've either do the same drop wise and get ahead enough to starve effort or just transition into sky T with a 4th and a 5th base. (once you get enough ravens you should win almost everytime).
Maybe. We'll have to see more games, since "if he did more damage" is a giant if considering Effort's choice of defense and execution.
Same pattern: 2 fact opening (Failed reaper into failed rush into mech opening) Barracks explosion w/ stimpack Going for some kind of pre-hive timing (You might have to watch it a few times to see how desirous Maru was for this, but the frustrations turned him to just a Deny-the-Fourth Drop-the-rest mode.) Which brings next to:
Newish defense for timing and build in general. Light Roach/Hydra w/ ling runby for keeping economy on back foot. Secure equal upgrades. In linked game, upgrades are behind but it isn't hard to imagine a more standard game with +3/+3 zerg finishing at around the same time as +3/+3 terran. Anyways, if there was a pre-hive, it would be against some meaty 2/2. Which brings to
Newish grappling phase of early lategame Broodlord/Viper/Hydra isn't new. Yet, just looking at Effort's mastery of counterattacks, this is a composition that you can pressure a fourth base with and keep the Terran locked down as compared to swarm host early. Swarm Host/Broodlord/Viper/Hydras(under 10). At advanced stages, banelings from your normal group of roving lings. Now the bio seems out of place. Sniping broodlords is a difficult task, both for SH and later bane reasons.
We're no strangers here to zerg surviving to lategame with an excellent economy and tech and just killing us. Effort's play here just shows more polish and a few individual concepts put together into a stronger whole.
I'm not giving my final words on real takeaways from this game, I still need to try it out in practice with more tame early games. That game saw more cloaked banshees than maybe necessary and that might be better, even though trades were good. There's other options instead of a fourth at that timing that could be explored. But can the zerg reliably have even upgrades and early hive even against true biomech, with later 3/3 hydra backed Broodlords and Vipers BEFORE Swarm Hosts?
effort's counter attacks only did a lot of damage because of the map design of king sejong station, not because he is a master at counter attacks but beceause he played the map well
The map choice did weaken the style, just as much as it favors mobile armies. Yet, my praise of him is well founded. Rarely, even on that map, do we see such correct larva use at the right times for harass (planning ahead) and jockeying in split army mode. But we're not here to discuss Effort's comparative skill at counterattacks compared to other zergs, just his choice in defending/dissuading a (perhaps weakened) pre-hive Push.
First of all, I'm a low (gold) league player, so excuse me if this quetion is dumb, but I will still ask it. :p
I've been trying Fanta's build, but when my opponent scouts 3 Factories and an early armory, he will most likely go into some Roach/Hydra based play, which is standard vs. Mech. In this case, should I make hellbats at all? I feel like they are just a waste of supply since they are pretty much useless vs. Roach/Hydra. What unit composition should I exactly aim for, when I'm facing that kind of play?
I just watched the Maru v Effort, Maru kinda messed that game up. He missed the Broodlord transition (despite knowing where the spire was), Took a LONG time to deal with that ling counter, Having a lot of SCVs on low patches And most importantly, Waited for half the game having a 5th CC but not using it.
On May 22 2014 15:34 Serotonine wrote: First of all, I'm a low (gold) league player, so excuse me if this quetion is dumb, but I will still ask it. :p
I've been trying Fanta's build, but when my opponent scouts 3 Factories and an early armory, he will most likely go into some Roach/Hydra based play, which is standard vs. Mech. In this case, should I make hellbats at all? I feel like they are just a waste of supply since they are pretty much useless vs. Roach/Hydra. What unit composition should I exactly aim for, when I'm facing that kind of play?
Hellbats do still take a lot of the damage.
While they can't really walk over and deal damage, a Hellbat has almost the same health as a Siege Tank. The Roach Hydra has to kill hte hellbats first (taking siege damage) or ignore the hellbats to kill the tanks, which puts them in the hellbat splash range.
You need the hellbats so the roach hydra can't engage straight up.
When you max out, feel free to get rid of hellbats for any other unit, but until then, they're good
Ok, I did actually think that they might be used to tank damage. Should I also make Thors?
And what Marine-Marauder rate should I aim for? To ask in other words, if I have 6 Barracks, how many should have Reactors, and how many Tech Labs?
Please also note that all my questions are referring to the case when I'm facing a Roach/Hydra based composition, mostly without mutas, sometimes with Viper support, but that is not common in my league due to the fact that you can't just simply a-move Vipers
On May 22 2014 18:14 Serotonine wrote: Ok, I did actually think that they might be used to tank damage. Should I also make Thors when the opponent has no mutas, just Roach/Hydra?
The Roach/Hydra phase we're talking about is probably when you, as Terran, are just having your third up and running. YOu'll be on 3 factories (2x Techlab, 1x Reactor) and adding two more. If your opponent goes R/H, you need to invest all the gas and production you have in Hellbats. If you make Thors instead of Tanks, you might get a good flank on you and kill your army. Once you notice he stops pressuring you or you feel like your building wall + Siege Tanks are sufficient, you can go for a couple of Thors. Remember to keep harrassing/scanning for a Spire/Swarm Host/Viper transition, they require different responses if you want to stay on Mech: Thors/Ravens/Vikings respectively! With this style, however, you'll get up to Marauder/Marine relatively quickly, which is much more versatile and can deal with Mutalisk reasonably.
On May 22 2014 18:14 Serotonine wrote: And what Marine-Marauder rate should I aim for? To ask in other words, if I have 6 Barracks, how many should have Reactors, and how many Tech Labs?
Please also note that all my questions are referring to the case when I'm facing a Roach/Hydra based composition, mostly without mutas, sometimes with Viper support, but that is not common in my league due to the fact that you can't just simply a-move Vipers
As for this, I think 1 Tech Lab and 5 Reactors does the trick. Because of your high Tank count, you'll not need the Marauders for anti roach as much. Don't forget Concussive! 200/200 Roach Hydra dies to almost every reasonable maxed ground composition of Terran without proper support.
On May 22 2014 18:24 Serotonine wrote: So as I understand, my basic composition should be MMM/Hellbat/Tank with a few Thors, do I get this right?
The main selling point of this hybrid style is its ability to adapt to the Zergs composition. Against Roach Hydra you'll get pretty far with MMM/Tank. You'll get a stronger mech backbone to your army than with the regular bio into biomech (Thor/Hellbat), but the additions are all based on what your opponent does.
Verse mutalisk, you don't need a lot of Tank/Hellbat, for example.
You aim to have an army of MMM that is versatile, fast and strong. You reinforce it with upgraded Hellbats/Tanks/Thors(/Mines) to counter the opponents tech. Hellbats deal with mass Zergling compositions and are just nice to have because of the high hitpoints and the splash. Tanks are excellent verse Banelings, Roaches, Hydras, Infestors and pretty good against Banelings. Thors are strong all around and mostly used against Ultralisk or Mutalisk. Mines are more of an emergency "I didn't scout the broodlord OMFG" tech. Lastly, always have at least one, preferably 2 reactored starports in the lategame for Vikings.
To put it into your words, your basic midgame composition to secure a third is Hellbat + Whatever you need against the Zergs opening Tech (Tanks OR Thors). Your lategame composition is a backbone of Bio with Mech units complementary to the Zergs tech.
I also considered adding some Sensor Towers, because it happened to me, that my opponent abused the immobility of my Tank heavy army, and when I moved out, he just went around, straight into my base, and this emerged into a baserace situation where I lost all my CCs. After that, he easily flanked me and destroyed my Tanks, because I didnt have any scans to help me taking a good engagement
But this is obviously also map dependent, for example Overgrowth (where this case happened) has many ways to get to my base, but I think on maps like Habitation Station and Merry Go Round this is less likely to happen.
On May 22 2014 18:31 Serotonine wrote: I also considered adding some Sensor Towers, because it happened to me, that my opponent abused the immobility of my Tank heavy army, and when I moved out, he just went around, straight into my base, and this emerged into a baserace situation where I lost all my CCs. After that, he easily flanked me and destroyed my Tanks, because I didnt have any scans to help me taking a good engagement
At 4 bases you can start adding additional Orbitals. Sensor Towers depend on the map, obviously, but I like to have one in my Main to detect Mutalisk, and one at the 3rd/4rth, whichever is further from my rally / more accesible.
Sensor Towers are never 'necessary', but they're a really useful building to have a couple of. Especially in Gold league where you should be able to spare the funds.
My other issue when doing Fanta's build, is defending the common push at ~10:30, with 20-30, +1/+1 Roaches.
Most likely, I will only have Reapers, a few Hellions and 2-3 Cloak Banshees (my first 2 Tanks might pop if I don't mess up anything) when this timing hits. I was thinking of adding a Tech Lab to my factory, and building a second Barracks into the Factory's reactor (+Bunkers) immediately when I scout the possibility of this push. What do you guys think about this?
Or should I be able to defend this with the Banshees? Personally I don't think that 2-3 of them will scare 25+ Roaches away, and Hellions are obviously demolished by Roaches ez. I can try poking into my opponents base with those to try forcing him retreat, but in most cases he will be able to defend that with a few Spines/Queens.
On May 22 2014 19:01 Serotonine wrote: My other issue when doing Fanta's build, is defending the common push at ~10:30, with 20-30, +1/+1 Roaches.
Most likely, I will only have Reapers, a few Hellions and 2-3 Cloak Banshees (my first 2 Tanks might pop if I don't mess up anything) when this timing hits. I was thinking of adding a Tech Lab to my factory, and building a second Barracks into the Factory's reactor (+Bunkers) immediately when I scout the possibility of this push. What do you guys think about this?
Or should I be able to defend this with the Banshees? Personally I don't think that 2-3 of them will scare 25+ Roaches away, and Hellions are obviously demolished by Roaches ez. I can try poking into my opponents base with those to try forcing him retreat, but in most cases he will be able to defend that with a few Spines/Queens.
You should have the first tanks out, possible go for mines instead of hellbats. Sim City + some Tanks + Banshees holds this off easilly.
According to the BO write-up I learned the build from, I make my 2nd and 3rd Factories at ~ 8:30, which means they finish at 9:30. The Tech Labs complete at 9:55, so my first Tanks pop at 10:40. This should really do it, if zerg doesn't push much earlier.
1 rax FE (CC before 2nd depot) and up to 4 marines take both 2gas + build bunker go factory + reactor then starport + armory and reactor with barrack produce 4 hellions then hellbats and medivacs >>drop 2nd barrack + 3rd reactor for 2xmarines + 1marauder cycle (+1 armor mech)
On May 22 2014 18:37 Serotonine wrote: Sorry I'm always editing my posts after you answer lol :p
I always aim to get the techlabs with my barracks, This speeds the tanks up. The banshees can damage the roaches on their way in and hellions can be used to delay the push (don't throw them, you may need them against the ling followup). Position your tanks carefully, often, there's a space in the main that covers your entrance.
If you die to this occasionslly, Maybe provide a replay !
You start off with 2 + 1 factorys, 1 + 4-5 rax and 1 starport. When do you add more production? And what do you add? When my 3rd gets saturated my money skyrockets and i cant get rid off it. (Ofcourse my macro is terrible.)
On May 26 2014 10:35 Helikptrfisk wrote: You start off with 2 + 1 factorys, 1 + 4-5 rax and 1 starport. When do you add more production? And what do you add? When my 3rd gets saturated my money skyrockets and i cant get rid off it. (Ofcourse my macro is terrible.)
If you constantly keep producing units of 7 Barracks (5 Reactor, 2 Tech Lab) and 3 Factories (2 Tech Lab, 1 Reactor), you shouldnt have that much money floating, at least that's what my experiences are. If you really have that much extra money, add sensor towers and extra Orbital Commands, maybe Planetaries and turrets. When you have your 4th base up and running, feel free to add extra production buildings (Barracks, Factories, Starports), but only if your bank is really that big.
And don't forget the upgrades for both bio+mech. Also Stim, Combat Shields, Concussive shells and Blueflame.
For an endgame infrastructure, I would add 2 more Factories (for a total of 5, with 2 Reactors and 3 Tech Labs), 1 or 2 more Starports, depending on what do you want to do. If you want a sky-switch (Ravens or Battlecruisers), you can add 2-3 more Starports with Tech Labs and a Fusion Core.
But basically, everything depends on what your opponent does. For example, if he has a lot of mutas, you want to make a crazy amount of turrets with extra minerals.
On May 26 2014 19:46 Helikptrfisk wrote: I dont want to upgrade all 4 upgrades. I wanna stay on attack-upgrades only to get the push going earlier. Will try to just macro better =)). Thx
Which build do you use?
I use Fantasy's which gets 2 Engi bays and 1 Armory, for +1/+1 bio and +1 mech attack early on. I tend to add one more Armory, for +2/+2 bio and +2/+1 mech.
I go the way InnoVation did it. 2 reap - hellion - cloakbanshee - 3rd cc - armory 2t fact - engiebay - 5r rax.
I have 12% winrate =)). I'm in platinum as terran and just switched from toss. I am really surprised how hard it is to macro as terran, damn you've gotta spam them marine-keys
On May 26 2014 19:46 Helikptrfisk wrote: I dont want to upgrade all 4 upgrades. I wanna stay on attack-upgrades only to get the push going earlier. Will try to just macro better =)). Thx
Which build do you use?
I use Fantasy's which gets 2 Engi bays and 1 Armory, for +1/+1 bio and +1 mech attack early on. I tend to add one more Armory, for +2/+2 bio and +2/+1 mech.
It's a pretty big trade-ff really. I find that you can always upgrade at least 2; I prefer +1 attack for both bio and mechanical. You cannot 100% safely go for more than that. If you scout certain things, you can decide what to do. Aggression usually means you cannot spend the gas for upgrades, but a passive Zerg does indeed allow you to go up to 4 upgrades. When you secure 3 or preferably 4 bases, you can go mayhem on the upgrades, but until then, I prefer to stick with 2 at a time, adding the second infantry upgrade first (as Armories are as expensive as an upgrade).
On May 26 2014 23:32 Helikptrfisk wrote: I go the way InnoVation did it. 2 reap - hellion - cloakbanshee - 3rd cc - armory 2t fact - engiebay - 5r rax.
I have 12% winrate =)). I'm in platinum as terran and just switched from toss. I am really surprised how hard it is to macro as terran, damn you've gotta spam them marine-keys
Just wait until you get to test your real macro skills in those prolonged engagements that depend on a steady rally to succeed, like some bio pushes vs Zerg or the Marauder Mine against Protoss.
I think we should aim at getting all these biomech games sort of organised. There isn't that many, really. Together we can kinda split them up and give them some labels (double upgrades, fast push, defensive, mech opener, i dunno)
On May 26 2014 23:32 Helikptrfisk wrote: I go the way InnoVation did it. 2 reap - hellion - cloakbanshee - 3rd cc - armory 2t fact - engiebay - 5r rax.
I have 12% winrate =)). I'm in platinum as terran and just switched from toss. I am really surprised how hard it is to macro as terran, damn you've gotta spam them marine-keys
doing it exactly this way (i will get the armory before the 3rd to get hellbats I think) and my winrate is around 65% vZ this season, it's definitely viable at a non top level
On May 27 2014 00:22 SC2Toastie wrote: I think we should aim at getting all these biomech games sort of organised. There isn't that many, really. Together we can kinda split them up and give them some labels (double upgrades, fast push, defensive, mech opener, i dunno)
That's a good idea but due to the last patch every TvZ opening will change so we should wait that the dust settles a bit imo.
So I tried Fanta style couple of times yesterday and I tend to die a lot just while transitioning. While I just don't have enough bio I die to 16-18 min viper timings. If zerg is good, he can usually keep you busy with mutas while also denying any drop play which is already very limited when you go mech.
Some smart zergs tend to go just mass roach to hold off early pushes with sheer numbers where mech is not really viable. If you fail to do early damage, they just fly off with their upgrades and tech.
Gona try some Inno style today, in meantime anyone having same issues found a solution?
On May 29 2014 23:13 Skynx wrote: So I tried Fanta style couple of times yesterday and I tend to die a lot just while transitioning. While I just don't have enough bio I die to 16-18 min viper timings. If zerg is good, he can usually keep you busy with mutas while also denying any drop play which is already very limited when you go mech.
Some smart zergs tend to go just mass roach to hold off early pushes with sheer numbers where mech is not really viable. If you fail to do early damage, they just fly off with their upgrades and tech.
Gona try some Inno style today, in meantime anyone having same issues found a solution?
right now with the way inno's doing it (less upgrades more army) I just need to spread my tanks correctly to not die to viper. Early hellbats + banshees are enough atm to hold roach pushes.
On May 30 2014 06:41 Helikptrfisk wrote: What maps do you feel it's good on? I have had the most succes on Merry go round.
When do you push out? Against Roach-Hydra and against lingblingmuta
btw since my post about 12% winrate I have had 60% winrate with this style, yay
against roach hydra i've tuned down my aggression and i try to drop more and take a 4th. If i can get a pre viper timing i go for it, if not i just add some ravens/vikings in order to deal with the vipers while securing my 4th. Since i get late upgrades it's not a problem to wait a bit.
Vs ling/bling/muta I'm aiming at timings around my combat shield or early timings with my small mech army if I'm sure i can force him to trade with his mutas. (get vikings if you want to do this)
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YXvmPku.png)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cQ08Kzj.png)
