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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
On June 26 2014 18:38 SatedSC2 wrote: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC's_7_Gate_1_Gas_All-in_(vs._Zerg) @klup You got it buddy ;p @satedsc2 cmon man... that's not even the same all in -.-.. its from wol | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
If it had been a full [G] it wouldnt have been closed. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
My thread may not have been all decorated up but what it did have was a top quality build order, something which this thread lacks quite a bit. Is there even a single build thats correct in here? As long as it looks good though! | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2014 02:20 -HuShang- wrote: Post a build order tons of people want to know about on the 23rd page of a guide so that no one can read it. Brilliant. Instead lets close the thread because there are so many top quality posts in the strategy section. /sarcasm My thread may not have been all decorated up but what it did have was a top quality build order, something which this thread lacks quite a bit. Is there even a single build thats correct in here? As long as it looks good though! This isn't like a blue poster beat-up party or anything, but: 1) This guide was released as a joke. But with HTML. And a lot of work and research anyway. A build order with no explanation is fairly useless. 2) You did not tag your thread as anything, and it definitely would not have fit the description of a "guide" anyhow (which you pretty much admitted). Note2: I didn't follow scarletts build but this is the fastest I could make it. 3) Do not, for the love of god, continue on with this dumb "these builds aren't right" rhetoric. The 2-base blink build was taken directly from my notes which have received thousands of views. No one, myself included, has ever had any difficulty getting 12 blink stalkers at 8:30 with that build until you. Protoss has several different gas timings which all work slightly differently but end up with the same amount of gas, and the one included in this guide is the way duckdeok did it (and won) against Innovation and Maru. Again, in the game, duckdeok hit 12 stalkers at 8:30 with no problems. At this point, you're just annoying. Please stop. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
http://imgur.com/yeq1ylI image of the wrong gas timings (1st gas at 15 not 14) http://imgur.com/tebU2io shows duckdeok using 2 on gas http://imgur.com/OkjEhj5 shows duckdeok placing 2nd gas at 16(not 17) http://imgur.com/bMRkp2n duckdeoks gas=316 @7:15(note at least 1 gate is almost halfway done although according to the guide this is when we start our gates) http://imgur.com/d1EzMay showing the guides gas @7:15 gas=474 that's 160 difference -.-.... http://imgur.com/SYKVkm3 image of the guides build trying to get 15 stalkers by 8:30. Impossible. http://drop.sc/383785 replay of the build following the guide replay of how to properly do the build http://imgur.com/CZXLRu7 picture of mine(duckdeoks build, me doing it) 14 stalkers before 8:30 http://imgur.com/n6NaZuj how my replay compares to duckdeoks gas at 7:15 mine=338 his=316 only 22 difference. So theres pretty much irrefutable evidence that the build posted here is wrong. There's really no reason for you not to change it at this point. If you continue to argue with me you're basically just affirming that you care less about the quality of the guide and more about how fancy it looks. On July 04 2014 04:38 SC2John wrote: 2) You did not tag your thread as anything, and it definitely would not have fit the description of a "guide" anyhow (which you pretty much admitted). . Did you try my build and then look at the vods? When I've done it on ladder it hits about 15 seconds faster than scarlett. This doesn't even deserve a point in your argument. It's screaming "Hey, HuShang made this really crisp build to help the community! BUT since it MIGHT not be the exact timings scarlett used who doesnt even play protoss it must be terrible." except its not, if you actually bothered to try it. I guess I'm really just disappointed in some of the blue posters because when I first joined tl this was the very epitome of game knowledge. TL SC2 Strategy is supposed to be a collaboration of people sharing knowledge, helping each other etc... When people get on Teamliquid and see a guide they don't question its integrity(and they shouldn't). Why? Because almost every good player who speaks English posts here. If there's a problem people will notice and fix it. However, if you're simply going to ignore people, people who are only trying to help make the guide better then there's a problem. A problem with the integrity of all TL guides. Everytime I see a new guide do I have to go check the vods myself and make sure they copied them properly? The funny thing is that I didn't go through every bo here looking for mistakes like you may think. I actually assumed it was correct and tried to practice it in a custom but knew something was wrong and went to verify it. No problem, maybe you guys just forgot to add x2 to gas. If you check earlier in the thread I even assumed it was just this, forgetting to add a small line. I didn't even check whether you put the wrong building timings etc... See what I mean about guide integrity? I had no doubt in my mind that you copied the build perfectly! That's the real reason I continue to post on the topic. I don't have any problems with the build, I fixed it myself and it's in my notes. My students don't have a problem because they use my notes. Although anyone who reads your guide in diamond/low masters is going to think that they are doing something wrong when it might in fact be that they're just following a build that isn't even correct. So I guess that's it. Like I said earlier, this is pretty irrefutable evidence so I don't think you will argue but then again since I posted the same replay of me doing it earlier in this thread maybe you will.... | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 04 2014 07:53 -HuShang- wrote: List of everything wrong with the blink all in shown in the guide(because apparently this is necessary instead of just rewatching the vod and then changing it.) Believe me I've asked many many many times in this thread http://imgur.com/yeq1ylI image of the wrong gas timings (1st gas at 15 not 14) http://imgur.com/tebU2io shows duckdeok using 2 on gas http://imgur.com/OkjEhj5 shows duckdeok placing 2nd gas at 16(not 17) http://imgur.com/bMRkp2n duckdeoks gas=316 @7:15(note at least 1 gate is almost halfway done although according to the guide this is when we start our gates) http://imgur.com/d1EzMay showing the guides gas @7:15 gas=474 that's 160 difference -.-.... http://imgur.com/SYKVkm3 image of the guides build trying to get 15 stalkers by 8:30. Impossible. http://drop.sc/383785 replay of the build following the guide replay of how to properly do the build http://imgur.com/CZXLRu7 picture of mine(duckdeoks build, me doing it) 14 stalkers before 8:30 http://imgur.com/n6NaZuj how my replay compares to duckdeoks gas at 7:15 mine=338 his=316 only 22 difference. So theres pretty much irrefutable evidence that the build posted here is wrong. There's really no reason for you not to change it at this point. If you continue to argue with me you're basically just affirming that you care less about the quality of the guide and more about how fancy it looks. Did you try my build and then look at the vods? When I've done it on ladder it hits about 15 seconds faster than scarlett. This doesn't even deserve a point in your argument. It's screaming "Hey, HuShang made this really crisp build to help the community! BUT since it MIGHT not be the exact timings scarlett used who doesnt even play protoss it must be terrible." except its not, if you actually bothered to try it. I guess I'm really just disappointed in some of the blue posters because when I first joined tl this was the very epitome of game knowledge. TL SC2 Strategy is supposed to be a collaboration of people sharing knowledge, helping each other etc... When people get on Teamliquid and see a guide they don't question its integrity(and they shouldn't). Why? Because almost every good player who speaks English posts here. If there's a problem people will notice and fix it. However, if you're simply going to ignore people, people who are only trying to help make the guide better then there's a problem. A problem with the integrity of all TL guides. Everytime I see a new guide do I have to go check the vods myself and make sure they copied them properly? The funny thing is that I didn't go through every bo here looking for mistakes like you may think. I actually assumed it was correct and tried to practice it in a custom but knew something was wrong and went to verify it. No problem, maybe you guys just forgot to add x2 to gas. If you check earlier in the thread I even assumed it was just this, forgetting to add a small line. I didn't even check whether you put the wrong building timings etc... See what I mean about guide integrity? I had no doubt in my mind that you copied the build perfectly! That's the real reason I continue to post on the topic. I don't have any problems with the build, I fixed it myself and it's in my notes. My students don't have a problem because they use my notes. Although anyone who reads your guide in diamond/low masters is going to think that they are doing something wrong when it might in fact be that they're just following a build that isn't even correct. So I guess that's it. Like I said earlier, this is pretty irrefutable evidence so I don't think you will argue but then again since I posted the same replay of me doing it earlier in this thread maybe you will.... So I tested the build...AGAIN. Just for you. Here is what I found: Still have no problem hitting 12 stalkers @8:30. 36 workers, 6 gates. I have no idea why you can't seem to do that. 14/17 is essentially equivalent to 15/15 in gas, especially if you don't scout. Looking back at the VoDs and based on my own experience testing this, it would probably do better with 2 on gas until cyber core because you really don't need that much gas early on. I'll own to that. Again, though, it's not like the build DOESNT WORK if you have three in each gas, it just might flow a little more smoothly; I think, when I played Protoss like 5 months ago, this is what I did + Show Spoiler + Actually, in hindsight, it was probably 2 on each gas until nexus. This is what I commonly did when I played Protoss for every build, and it's possible that my brain just filled in the details. By the time this guide was released and you asked me the gas timings, it had been quite a while since I had actively played Protoss, so I apologize if I gave you incorrect information The build I wrote was an amalgam build that averaged the two games together (BTW, I think it was supposed to be G3 vs. Maru, and I accidentally wrote G2 in the thread). That is, some elements came from the Maru game and some came from the Innovation game. I did this because not all the scouting was exactly the same and there were some delays in one game but not in the other (Maru ebay blocks him); overall, the purpose was to create one build that would be the most correct. In the end, though, I'm not sure it warrants saying the build is "wrong", since, like I said, I can still hit the benchmarks with no problem and literally no one until you has ever had a problem with the way it works. Had you earlier said, "Hey, I think that build is not fully optimized, but I found a better way to do it!", we wouldn't have a problem. But the fact that pop in here every time someone has a question and make some snide remark about the quality of the guide is what gives you a character flaw. | ||
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i)awn
United States189 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
but seriously though that duckdeok build needs some work john. 14/17 distorts the build by too much. 5 stalkers make a big difference actually. http://i.imgur.com/urSVeig.jpg http://drop.sc/383811 + Show Spoiler + if u really care.... 9 Pylon 13 Gate 15 Gas 15 Pylon 18 Core 20 Zealot (Cancel if no ebay) 21 Nexus (3:30 with almost perfect probe stack) 23 MSC 23 Gas 24 Pylon 26 Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker (No gaps) 26 Warpgate (4:20) (warpgate completes the same time 4th stalker completes!!) 5:00 Twilight 5:55-ish Blink 2x Chronoboost (8:30-ish completed) 6:00-ish 2x Gateway (Reason: lines up with warpgate) 6:30-ish 2x Gateway (Reason: lines up with 2nd warpin round) 7:00 Gas at natural (Reason: To fit last 2-3 stalkers in) Things to remember: Make your 15 supply Pylon at a place where in-base proxies are most likely. Be active with your first stalkers because scouting is minimal. Confirm that Terran expanded with first stalker. Pylons when necessary Chronoboost gateway after each warpin when possible for maximum Protoss  After 17th stalker warpin u should have 20-ish minerals + 0 gas, Blink should finish at same time. In a real ladder game the timings are distorted by 5-10 seconds because u have to run around your probes to dodge reapers and of course there's the ebay/SCV block............ but the bright side 36 probes allow for semi-strong transition 5 EXTRA STALKERS COMPARED TO WCS EU CHAMPIONS BUILD!!!!  17 stalkers can 2 shot bunkers!!!!!! is this the most optimized build ever? xD | ||
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On July 05 2014 02:53 Xinzoe wrote: i just tried a build. 17 stalkers by 8:25 + 38 probes. i am the new duckdeok and will win wcs. hehe but seriously though that duckdeok build needs some work john. 14/17 distorts the build by too much. 5 stalkers make a big difference actually. http://i.imgur.com/urSVeig.jpg http://drop.sc/383811 + Show Spoiler + if u really care.... 9 Pylon 13 Gate 15 Gas 15 Pylon 18 Core 20 Zealot (cancel if no ebay) 21 Nexus (3:30 with almost perfect probe stack) 23 Mothership Core 23 Gas 24 Pylon 26 Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker 26 Warpgate (4:20) (7:00 completed) 5:00 Twilight 5:55-ish Blink 3x Chronoboost (8:10-ish completed) 6:05-ish 2x Gateway 6:30-ish 2x Gateway 7:00Gas at natural (3 probe when done) Pylons when neccessary chronoboost gateway after each warpin After 17th stalker warpin u should have 20ish minerals + 0 gas, blink should finish at same time in a real ladder game the timings are distorted by 5-10 seconds because u have to run around ur probes to dodge reapers and of course there's the ebay/SCV block................ but the bright side 36 probes allow for semi-strong transition 5 EXTRA STALKERS COMPARED TO WCS EU CHAMPIONS BUILD!!!! 17 stalkers can 2 shot bunkers!!!!!! is this the most optimized build ever? xD I appreciate the input. As soon as I figure out how to edit older posts, I'm going to update the old SC2 Notes OP with an updated version of the build. I think a lot of the inaccuracies in the original post have a lot to do with my mind auto-piloting and expecting players to figure things out on their own, but I realize that the slight differences might confuse some people now. In the future, I'll work at making the build orders clear and concise. This is honestly the first time I've ever heard of someone having a problem, so I was a little taken aback. (Either way, though, I totally nail this benchmark (12 stalkers by 8:30) even with a non-optimized version of the build WHAT). I'm a little confused by your build because it only has 5 gateways (unless I'm reading it wrong), which is probably where you're grabbing an extra stalker more than what you should be getting. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
I think if I did a 4gate variant I can squeeze in one more? ALSO with 6x gateways u will bank up minerals and have a extremely high min/gas ratio after 9 minute mark. With 3x gas and only 5 gateways u can have continuous stalker production without gaps in warpins. And finally the extra minerals are for extra pylons or probes or 3rd base obviously. And because u have less gateways, Terran player might read you wrong and not commit much to defend Edit: i also updated the build with a few notes | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
On April 01 2014 22:06 TL Strategy wrote: PvZ - SanTrain 9 pylon 12 gate Chronoboost x3 on nexus 15 gas 16 pylon 18 core 18 zealot 22 probe scout 23 warp gate (constant chrono) 23 nexus 23 MSC (chronoboost) 26 gateway x2 (4:35) 27 sentry 30 gateway (5:00) 31-32 proxy pylon @6:00 warp in first zealots First zealots hit @6:15 Hide probe after initial pylons With all due respect I believe this Build order is wrong. I followed it thoroughly several times (30+ times) and can't ever be attacking @6:15. The best I ever got was @6:20. Essentially, I cut probes at 23 to be able to do WG, throw down a Nexus at expansion, build a MSC (Chronoboost) but to be able to add gates @4:45 (4:35 is impossible it seems) and then another one @5:00 + Pylon @ 25 supply I need to cut probes for 1:15 mins which doesn't seem right and clearly not optimal. If I make a sentry @27 supply then my last gate finishes 5 seconds later and the push is delayed. Is there anyone who could post a replay of executing this exact build and hitting the timings ? I've watched the vods of San executing the build in the previous thread, but it's hard to really see with vods : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/439454-sc2-notes-the-sangate-pvz EDIT: HuShang does something similar without the sentry and 6:30 is more likely than 6:15 http://drop.sc/384300 | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13430 Posts
Adding the gates at 4:35 vs 4:45 is related to mining efficiencies so its based on probe stacking and the different map. Make sure you aren't losing minerals by not returning minerals before gas and not interrupting mining time from what probe you send to make the gas for example. Also don't forget it is 12 gate 15 gas because that does make a huge huge difference. In the end its a stupid tight build and San does seem to get his zealots by 6:15ish. I'm not perfect so I can't hit it. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On July 12 2014 00:44 Universum wrote: With all due respect I believe this Build order is wrong. I followed it thoroughly several times (30+ times) and can't ever be attacking @6:15. The best I ever got was @6:20. Essentially, I cut probes at 23 to be able to do WG, throw down a Nexus at expansion, build a MSC (Chronoboost) but to be able to add gates @4:45 (4:35 is impossible it seems) and then another one @5:00 + Pylon @ 25 supply I need to cut probes for 1:15 mins which doesn't seem right and clearly not optimal. If I make a sentry @27 supply then my last gate finishes 5 seconds later and the push is delayed. Is there anyone who could post a replay of executing this exact build and hitting the timings ? I've watched the vods of San executing the build in the previous thread, but it's hard to really see with vods : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/439454-sc2-notes-the-sangate-pvz EDIT: HuShang does something similar without the sentry and 6:30 is more likely than 6:15 http://drop.sc/384300 I didnt watch your replay but here are things I saw from San vs Golden vod. He scouts with his 20th supply probe and warpins first 3 zealots at 6:07 in the Merry Go Round game. I was able to pull off the timings slightly earlier. 2 Gateways 4:35, 4th Gateway 5:03, Warpins by 6:02. Attacks third hatchery by 6:15. http://drop.sc/384366 http://i.imgur.com/Q0jFHHx.jpg?1 Edit: in the replay you posted, he scouted after gateway so build is already off by 10 seconds and like zeromus said king sejong's mineral patches on average are slightly farther than other maps such as overgrowth or merry go round | ||
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
On July 12 2014 22:00 Xinzoe wrote: I didnt watch your replay but here are things I saw from San vs Golden vod. He scouts with his 20th supply probe and warpins first 3 zealots at 6:07 in the Merry Go Round game. I was able to pull off the timings slightly earlier. 2 Gateways 4:35, 4th Gateway 5:03, Warpins by 6:02. Attacks third hatchery by 6:15. http://drop.sc/384366 http://i.imgur.com/Q0jFHHx.jpg?1 Edit: in the replay you posted, he scouted after gateway so build is already off by 10 seconds and like zeromus said king sejong's mineral patches on average are slightly farther than other maps such as overgrowth or merry go round Once again thank you Xinzoe for your input, you helped me greatly in several threads already. I'm unable to watch replay right now because I'm at work (Zero chances my boss will install sc2 at work  ), but you warpin 3 zealots the first time around ? So I assume your 4th gate is just finishing right ?I didn't know the maps were different in terms of mineral distance. I thought blizzard kinda made Templates of mineral layouts that were just simply used by map makers. Seems I was wrong.I should've tried the build on several maps too to get a better picture. I was trying it on deadwing a lot because it's the map I have the worst PvZ record so far this season. This will definitely help me hit the timing better. Thank you guys ! | ||
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Universum
Canada192 Posts
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SCguineapig
Netherlands289 Posts
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