Welcome, to the Great Book of Protoss Bullshit. We at TeamLiquid Strategy believe that StarCraft is a beautiful game, and it is our goal to share this beauty with the world, as long as you play Protoss.
Lately, we've realized that due to the tireless efforts of our Protoss staff, we've become single-handedly responsible for making Protoss OP. The knowledge and understanding we have provided for the Protoss has race has had an affect bigger than any patch from Blizzard. After all why would anyone bother to figure the game out for themselves when Protoss has already been mapped out so well for them?
That doesn't mean we have become complacent. Rather, we've been motivated to do an even better job going forward. Thus, we are releasing what's sure to be our most influential and game changing guide yet. With the following builds, a little bit of micro and multi-tasking are all you need for success. Execute them right, and you won't even need to worry about the lategame. At worst, you might find yourself having to a-moving more than once.
While reading through this thread please listen to the following song as it accurately reflects how your opponents will feel when the game is over and you are collecting ladder points.
And before we truly get started, the following image should provide you all the motivation you need to learn from this guide.
And now, it is with the utmost honor that I present to you the crowning achievement of TL Strategy, a guide worked on tirelessly by our greatest players, the greatest guide of all:
The Great Book of Protoss Bullshit.
The Great Chapters
San-GateTrain(PvZ)
Are you a fan of zealots? Are you a fan of bullshit? Do you want to make Zerg players feel sad and impotent? Then this build is for you! The purpose of this build is to build a shitton of early zealots and completely obliterate your nooby Zerg opponent who's trying to “macro”. The build order goes like this:
First zealots hit @6:15 Hide probe after initial pylons
If you notice, the Sangate includes a gateway on 12 instead of the more standard 13, allowing for warpgate to finish about ten to fifteen seconds earlier. On top of that, all chronoboost is dumped into warp gate so that it finishes super early. The worst part? It looks like a normal gate expand into 3-gate pressure, but hits thirty seconds earlier with even more zealots. If you're doing the build right, your zealots should roughly outnumber the Zerg units.
The probe scout simply looks for a third base then hides. If the Zerg decides to “macro” to take a third base, it's an open invitation to warp in dozens of zealots to stomp all over the third and laugh. If the Zerg tries to be cute and counterattack, the sentry and wall should be strong enough to prevent any kind of shenanigans from going down; meanwhile, the Zerg player will be losing their third because they don't have enough units because they decided to counterattack. Not that it would matter anyway. Most of the time, the Zerg should fail at macro and you can simply amove your way into the natural for the win while constantly warping in more and more zealots.
Oh, you made roaches? Too bad I have more zealots than you have units!
“Well...what happens if the Zerg somehow DOES have enough units? What do I do after this?” That's an excellent point you bring up there. In cases such as these, assuming the Zerg player manages to reach sufficient APM to macro, it's important to sit back and think “what is the purpose of my race?” If you answered “Bullshit”, you are correct. To transition, we already have plenty of gateways and a solid two-base economy, so why not follow up with a sentry/immortal all-in! Simply take your natural gases, add a robo, and build two to three immortals and lots of sentries. Once your Zergy opponent feels “safe” and starts to drone, you can just move across the map and win.
Two-Base Blink All-in (PvT)
9 pylon **Chronoboost x4 on nexus** 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 gas 18 core **probe scout** 21 zealot (cancel) 21 nexus 21 MSC 23 pylon 23 warpgate 25 stalker 27 twilight council 28 stalker 33 blink (constant chronoboost) 35 stalker @6:15 -> gate x2 **deny reaper scout** @7:00 -> gate x3 **cut probes at 36** Hits @8:30 with 12 stalkers All chronoboost saved for blink after main base saturation
What do Yeonsu, Heavy Rain, Frost, Daedalus Point, and Polar Night have in common? They're all great maps for a blink all-in! With so much surface area to defend, Terrans can't possibly hope to put up enough bunkers, making a blink all-in a simple and wonderfully easy-to-execute strategy. As you may have noticed, I included five out of seven of the maps in the current ladder map pool, meaning that with map vetoes, you can do this build exclusively in PvT and win a majority of your games. What, did you say “freewins”? How do we do this?
When you assemble your first twelve stalkers and MSC and the Terran is sitting helpless in his base, you're ready to begin bullshit. First, poke the front bunkers with your blink stalkers to lure units down the ramp and force SCVs to be pulled off while moving your MSC toward the main. After your opponent sends units down the ramp to help, time warp the ramp and blink into the main base. If you're lucky and the Terran is awful, you may be able to blink directly on top of the tech lab researching stim; snipe it. If your opponent happens to be half decent and gets stim to finish, no problem – you are playing Protoss, so you're going to win anyway. Simply throw down a time warp somewhere in his base and kite backwards through it, eliminating about 90% of his SCVs. From here, your stalker advantage should snowball and allow you to easily win the game with no problems.
#bullshit #dirty #protossimba
Sometimes the Terran player will attempt to be clever and lift his buildings, trying to force a “draw” (which is silly because you're Protoss) and force his own frustration onto you. Of course, because most of your games are only six to ten minutes long, you can savor this time period and spend some time reaching out to another player on the internet. If you're feeling extra gracious, pretend not to notice him mining with MULEs and let him feel like he's making a comeback. And then, with a void ray, you can shoot down the hopes and dreams of your opponent forever.
Two-Base Blink Macro Bullshit (PvT)
9 pylon **Chronoboost x4 on nexus** 13 gate 14 gas 16 pylon 17 gas 18 core **probe scout** 21 zealot (cancel) 21 nexus 21 MSC 23 pylon 23 warpgate 25 stalker 27 twilight council 28 stalker 33 blink (constant chronoboost) 35 stalker @6:15 -> gate x2 **deny reaper scout** @6:45 -> gate x1 @7:15 -> natural gases After first warpin, start templar archives Start double forge when money allows 3rd base @9:30 Start charge when money allows Hits @8:30 with 10 stalkers Only replacement warpins (don't go over 10)
In a world where Terran is terrified of blink, they are even more afraid of storm. If you talk to any Terran, they will QQ endlessly aboot how storm is overpowered and ends the game in seconds, etc. So, instead of just killing them with blink, we just instill them with enough fear to tech up quickly to storm and then send them into a downward spiral of depression and anguish! This build is almost the same as the one above, but with only four gates to allow faster natural gases and continuous probe production.
This build hits at the same time with slightly less stalkers, but it still scares the shit out of Terrans. Expect to see 4-5 bunkers, multiple SCV pulls, and some desperation stimming to stop the “all-in”. This is all good. Remember that your stalkers don't even have to do much damage, they just have to scare the Terran, force a lot of defense, and buy a bunch of time.
When the Terran feels like they've finally blocked your attack and stabilized on medivacs, you should already have a third base up and storm/charge finished. The initial attack should be a breeze to hold off. Oh, but what if they start dropping? Remember those 10 blink stalkers, use those to LULZ at the Terran.
Aw, poor Terrans. Poor, poor Terrans....
From here the game simply turns into a standard templar play vs. Terran, but your opening should allow you to be a full set of upgrades ahead of your opponent as well as one base up. It's also possible to follow up with colossi or dark templar, but HT is the most common followup due to its ease to transition into and its mid game power. Luckily, if you've done the build right, your opponent will suicide his entire army into storms, start raging, and QQ. In the best case scenario, he'll lift his buildings and continue to bm you for a while (see above).
zealot/stalker/probe poke @5:00-5:15 First warpin @5:20
Remember PvP in 2011? Remember the 4-gates? Remember that “Korean 4-gate” build? Good news, that build still exists, and it's been adapted for all of your HotS needs! This build is the epitome of a warpgate rush, with the first units warping in at 5:20 – generally around the time that your opponent has one or two units total. And since we're assuming your opponent sucks and can't micro, this is a great (and super easy) build to pull off! If your opponent plays a standard opening, he dies. If he is trying to be clever and metagame you by going for ultra fast tech or rushing an expansion, he dies. It all comes down to whether your opponent can micro or not, and he probably can't.
If your opponent is half decent, he probably won't scout until after his cyber core gets started and won't see anything too out of the ordinary inside your base besides an obvious lack of probes. But most players can't count, especially on ladder, so it's not a big deal. If you're opponent is terrible and scouts super early...well, then he's terrible, and you'll still kill him anyway.
When your stalker completes, move out on the map with a little probe/zealot/stalker task force. This should be more than enough to clear any stalkers wandering around on the map. Throw down a proxy pylon at your opponent's natural and walk up into their main base; you'll usually arrive around 5:00-5:15 depending on the map. At most, your opponent can have one sentry and one forcefield at this time, so he can delay the push for 20 seconds, but not stop it from entering the main base. When you enter the main base, put down a pylon at the top of the ramp immediately.
Do your best to snipe your opponent's first stalker or MSC, as this will generally just end the game instantly. When warpgate finishes constantly warp in stalkers; if you run out of gas, just make a few zealots. There are a few cases where your opponent actually doesn't suck completely and gets a photon overcharge off without losing a ton of stuff. In these cases, keep warping in units just outside the radius of photon overcharge, then, because you still have the army advantage, kill him after it wears off.
One gate proxy Stalker rush (PvP)
Send out a probe immediately as the game starts to proxy 10 pylon (cut probes) 10 gateway Resume probes 15 assimilator 15 pylon 15 zealot (chronoboost zealot) 18 cybernetics core 18 zealot 22 second assimilator 23 stalker 23 warp gate 25 pylon 26 stalker (when pylon finishes)
Every protoss likes to complain about PvP, and it's kind of true, it's a shit matchup. The important thing though, is that you can weight the coin that is being flipped in your favor, with some nicely timed bullshit. And of course, what could be more bullshit than a proxy that wins with cheesy aggression, that doesn't really cut probes, and doesn't really cut tech, leaving you with the ability to transition if they SOMEHOW manage to not die? Nothing of course!
It's Bullshit Time
Continue making stalkers out of the gate, add 2 more gates as you can afford it, add more pylons as needed. You start the attack around when the second zealot pops, the probes are weak and defenseless, and they've got nothing on your zealots, it's totally unfair. You'll have a unit lead, so just micro and there's very little your opponent can do. You don't even need to have a close or inbase proxy with this build, it can be a reasonable distance away and still crush them. Proceed to laugh maniacally as your warp gate finishes and you warp in more units to kill them. Make sure to focus the mothership core down, the nexus cannon is the only thing that 'might' give let them defend, although you should still be fine, because, lets face it, this build is grade A steaming bullshit. Once you've got the lead, feel free to take a nice refreshing drink from the cup sitting next to you. You know the one I'm talking about, the one all Protoss bullshitters have that automatically fills with the tears of your opponents. Ummmmmm, yummy.
Yes, Zerg tears are yellow. You don't want to know how Protoss tears look, unless of course you're a bullshitter, in which case you already know. You'll find out soon enough with this build.
Two-Base fast Blink All-in (also works in PvZ, yay!)
9 pylon 13 gate 15 assimilator 16 pylon 20 nexus 21 cyber core 22 second assimilator 23 zealot 24 pylon 24 mothership core 26 warp gate research 28 stalker 34 wall natural with 2 gateways and another pylon 36 twilight council 36 stalker 40 pylon 44 Blink 46 Warp Gate finishes, warp in 3 stalkers 46 proxy pylon 52 add 2 gates Warp in one more round of stalkers, start pressure add 2 more gates immediately. Chronoboost Usage: first 5 on probes, rest on warp gate, then blink once Twilight Council finishes, then rest on gateways. Cut probes at 38 (16 on both mineral lines, 3 on both geysers)
Basic Description: Gate expand, never take gasses at natural, early stalkers to deny scouting, 7 gate blink all-in with 2 gas geysers, warping in stalkers and zealots. Attack starts at 7:30-7:40 with 5 gates, adds 2 more gates as attack starts.
Use your first couple of stalkers to keep overlords out and to prevent scouting. He'll never see this coming. This build abuses the fact that most gate all-ins with blink hit later than this, so zergs typically drone harder and then make units later. If zergling speed is faster, wait until blink finishes to start pushing in, else zerglings will crush this. I wouldn't worry about that too much though, zergs are so automated they can't remember how to push a button other than the 'd' button before the 7 minute mark, and that's the good zergs. The bad ones take even longer! (Hell, even the good zergs can't multitask enough to produce more than one kind of unit per wave of units, even terrans can manage to make marines AND marauders out of their barracks).
This gateway expand is slightly greedy, and this build should only be executed and followed through upon if you detect a 3rd base from zerg with later gas (or suspect it). Normal zerg builds and reactions can do nothing. If he tries to rush hydras, as so many zergs are foolishly doing right now, you'll kill him with too many units that won't die.
Proceed to blink bullshit with time warp, keep making pylons as needed. Win EZ. Expect rage.
You got blunk son
The Great Prophet
We have all heard tales of the mighty Tasteless build. Rumours, and whisperings between Artosis and the Great Prophet himself, Nick "Tasteless" Plott. While secret hallways may no longer exist on modern maps the Tasteless build lives on. Indeed, we have unearthed writings, discovered the secrets and are on a quest to enlighten the world of our Great Prophet's teachings. The power of the Tasteless build has been known in PvT for a while now, however, today, for the first time ever, what were once a secret set of strategies in the other matchups will now be made public. May the Glory of Tasteless shine down on you as you carry out the Tasteless build and steal the ladder points of many nerds. Above all else remember: the Tasteless Build isn't a simple build order, a list of things to do. It's an idea, an inspiration.
Kill-a-Zerg Tasteless Build
9/10 pylon 10/18 Chronoboost Nexus(1) 13/18 gate, Chronoboost Nexus (2) 14/18 Assimilator 16/18 pylon, Chronoboost Nexus (3) 18/18 cybernetics core, Chronoboost Nexus (4) 23/26 Fake Zealot * 21/26 Nexus at natural, warpgate research 23/26 mothershp core, Chronoboost Nexus (5) 25/26 zealot, pylon at natural 29/34 sentry, Chronoboost Warpgate 31/34 Gateway x 3, pylon, push out with zealot/msc/probe 32/34 Assimilator (2) 35/44 Council 35/52 proxy pylon 43/60 warp 4 zealots at the zerg third base, keep pressuring while the DT tech completes. 47/60 Dark Shrine 8:00 Forge 8:10 Assimilator x2 8:30 warp 3-4 dark templar. Remember to hide extra pylons as you pressure, to ensure a close warp in. 8:40 Research Blink and +1 ground weapons 3 extra gates as you can afford Amove to victory. Blink micro if you really really need to
Also known as: "the correct reaction to zealot pressure is making spores".
So they idea behind this build is extremely simple. Every Starcraft player is told, from the start of his career, that he sucks horribly. This build turns it around: if i suck, so does my opponent. Enter the zealot pressure...once he sees that, the unlucky Zerg is going to think, more or less, fuck fuck fuck fuck need units fuck fuck fuck fuck...and then, as he's there swearing and making roaches (or perhaps countering with them after defending, which is absolutely hilarious), BAM, 4 dt's killing hatcheries and drones. Sure, he could (and should) have sent an overlord to your main to check what your followup was going to be, but since we all suck, he didn't. He could have cleared out every pylon on the map, but we all suck, so he didn't. He could have defended the pressure taking zero damage while scouting properly, but he didn't. The result? His drones die...and 2 minutes later, so does every filthy zerg unit on the map, thanks to the blink followup. For shits and giggles you can go zealot/archon instead. Tasteless himself would very much so approve of this build, i'm sure. Fun fact: i have done this build dozens of times, since 2012, up to high master level. I have lost a grand total of 3 times with it. I have even seen diamond teammates killing GM's with it.
Mind = blown
Kill-a-protoss Tasteless Build
9/10 Pylon 10/18 Gateway, resume probe production and chrono Nexus once 12/18 Assimilator, resume probe production, chrono Nexus 14/18: Send out probe 15/18, 2.25: Cyber Core 16/18: Assimilator 17/18: Proxy pyon 18/26, 3.23: Twilight Council (hidden), Warpgate 21/26, 4.15: Dark Shrine 23/26: 3xGateway, cut probes, proxy pylon 100% gateways: warp in one 4 dt's. Reinforce with dt/zealot/stalker. amove to victory
Also known as: The ninja four gate
10 gate means aggression, not fast tech, unless you scout thoroughly. See a pattern? Mindfuck the opponent with one bad build, do another bad build, amove to victory. As simple as it gets...plus it's easy to write about, which gives me more time to collect sweet ladder tears. Note that you do not make any unit whatsoever before the DT, making this an incredibly gimmicky and risky build. Of course, we are cheesy bullshit ladder Protoss players, who ran out of fucks to give a long time ago, so it's fine. Besides, what's not to love about 4gating with invisible units?
Even our fellow Zealoters aren't immune to the bullshit. Having dt's at 6 minutes is fun.
Kill-a-Terran Tasteless Build
9/10 Pylon 10/18 Chrono Nexus 13/18 Gateway, send out probe, Chrono Nexus 15/18 2x Assimilator, 2 probes on each, Chrono Nexus 17/18 Proxy Pylon 18/18 Cyber Core, 3 probes in each gas, Chrono Nexus 21/26 Proxy Stargate, (3:45 game time) 22/26 Stalker, go to defend your proxy pylon. 24/26 Pylon, Warpgate 25/34: Cut probes; you should have 16 on minerals, 6 on gas and 1 on the map (23 total). 25/34: Oracle, Chronoboost 2x(4:48 game time). 28/34: Stalker 30/34: Pylon, second Oracle 5:30: your oracle kills every scv 33/34: 3 extra gates, Void Ray Warp in 2 rounds of stalkers Amove to victory
This build is also known as: "blind turrets or die...and then die anyway"
As usual, same thought process: if i suck so does he...therefore, he won't scout this. The fastest proxy oracle possible is so retardedly fast, that you will most of the time win games out right just thanks to it. And even if you don't, he's going to be sitting there going fuckfuckfuck need turrets fuckfuckfuck before a bunch of stalkers show up. It's very possible you will not lose resources with this build, while getting sweet sweet terran tears along with your ez, tasty ladder points. And if you are really, really good, you can go proxy oracle into 4gate into proxy void ray into proxy tempest into proxy nexus cannon.
The manner is strong with this one
Conclusion
The following video sums up exactly how your opponents feel after you read this guide:
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
You must be great at parties
I don't need to make shit jokes to have fun.
I'm sure you dont need to shit on other people's jokes either
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
You must be great at parties
I don't need to make shit jokes to have fun.
I'm sure you dont need to shit on other people's jokes either
Please consider adding this game to the bullshit list
A brief description is that it's one base, until Has expands into MMA's natural. It's proxy oracle that turns into proxy VR, that turns into proxy Tempest. It takes 15 minutes or so to play out.
Oh, and there's cannons. And Has is on one gate the entire time. And then he photon overcharges the proxy nexus.
Hell, even the good zergs can't multitask enough to produce more than one kind of unit per wave of units, even terrans can manage to make marines AND marauders out of their barracks.
As a Terran that hates TvZ, this amused me greatly.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
You must be great at parties
I don't need to make shit jokes to have fun.
I'm sure you dont need to shit on other people's jokes either
I'm not doing it by commenting here. The article is great, the drawing is disgusting.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
You must be great at parties
Leave em alone. From what I hear, Poland isn't that fun of a country and it doesn't have a lot of things going on.
On April 01 2014 23:16 lichter wrote: Olli is bullshit
rofl
I had nothing to do with this but I probably should've told Teo to include my proxy oracle -> immortal bust strategy that retired a 12 time masters terran. Protoss is glory.
On April 01 2014 23:16 lichter wrote: Olli is bullshit
rofl
I had nothing to do with this but I probably should've told Teo to include my proxy oracle -> immortal bust strategy that retired a 12 time masters terran. Protoss is glory.
lol, are there replays or screencaps of this glorious event?
On April 01 2014 22:55 Heartland wrote: I think this guide lacks sOs mastery of a mind game inside of bullshit wrapped in a conundrum, deep-fried in cheese and hidden in an enigma.
ROFLMFAO. (Wipes tear from eye while clutching ribs from laughing so hard). There is no acronym that will do justice to how hard I just lol'ed.
This is another fantastic bullshit game. Cannon rush which establishes a pylon inbetween the Zerg's bases. Into +1 fourgate. Into double stargate phoenix. Every little bit here is such beautifully crafted bullshit.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
You must be great at parties
I don't need to make shit jokes to have fun.
I'm sure you dont need to shit on other people's jokes either
I'm not doing it by commenting here. The article is great, the drawing is disgusting.
i'm really sorry that you had to look at cartoon poop, dude. my grandma saw cartoon poop once, and now, 57 years later, she's dead.
On April 01 2014 23:56 Scarecrow wrote: Shame no mention of walled in cannon rushes of up to 5 pylons
blizzard doesn't understand that you can't nerf pylon walls by forcing protoss to use more pylons look at a pylon. it's just a giant fucking mineral crystal. every pylon you warp in pays for another pylon
On April 01 2014 23:12 Heartland wrote: Please consider adding this game to the bullshit list
A brief description is that it's one base, until Has expands into MMA's natural. It's proxy oracle that turns into proxy VR, that turns into proxy Tempest. It takes 15 minutes or so to play out.
Oh, and there's cannons. And Has is on one gate the entire time. And then he photon overcharges the proxy nexus.
On April 01 2014 23:16 lichter wrote: Olli is bullshit
rofl
I had nothing to do with this but I probably should've told Teo to include my proxy oracle -> immortal bust strategy that retired a 12 time masters terran. Protoss is glory.
lol, are there replays or screencaps of this glorious event?
I don't think so, I'd have to find the replay and it was about 2 months ago D:
I actually started playing zerg more often because im kinda of disgusted with blizzard and Protoss right now.. like i love Protoss.. but im having a hard time playing as them.
I'm loving it. I have some free time ahead of me after some weeks with a massive workload and this just looks like a good bunch of builds to get back in the game :D
On April 02 2014 00:26 geokilla wrote: Why is there no Soul Train? Is it because the writers lost their souls?
Even as an avid hater of that build (it is by far my most despised build to face in ZvP) I have to admit that it's a legit build that takes a lot of practice to execute properly.
The difference between a good and bad soul train is night and day. The same cannot always be said of shit like proxy Oracle and Blink All Ins.
The fact that this article is featured and contains this picture - it's disgusting and should be removed. Just because you use bullshit in a title doesn't mean you have to draw actual sh**. 1st April or not.
You must be great at parties
Leave em alone. From what I hear, Poland isn't that fun of a country and it doesn't have a lot of things going on.
We're next to Ukraine so soon we may have parties like you've never seen.
Leave em alone. From what i hear, Muricans are kinda goofy, hence they're so bad at SC and so much party time. Btw: you must be fun at parties nimdil...
On April 02 2014 00:47 SatedSC2 wrote: You forgot to mention that you should always pray to the relevant deity before each game starts... preferably InCa because Dark Templar are truly the best form of bullshit:
Why yes, that is a proxy Council/Dark Shrine at the bottom of the map...
Kekekekekekekekekeke...
But ... inca gives MC a high five in the GIF.
His legacy lives on.
The only man who could bullshit with basically one strategy until the GSL finals. How no one completely blind countered the guy safely until Nestea in the finals I will never truly know. Somehow even when his opponents had detection he still won haha.
On April 01 2014 22:16 prabhbhambra13 wrote: Time to switch races. With this handy guide I will be tearing up the ladder, stealing points from everyone.
well i had a similar guide for myself. Normally I am more a mediocre player (EU dia) but after many months of training terran macro I gave up my quest to masters. It was also too stressy (with my 180 APM it always took hours for me to calm down after a few games of SC2). Had a braek from SC2, did get demoted to plat and after that played only half-hearted.
I changed race, took these builds, blindly executed them (well I had a short learning curve of how to defend counters and allins) and landed at masters. Sc2gears showed me an average of 73 APM, so it's definately a more relaxed way to play the game (even though some may say protoss micro is hard: it isn't, compared to the 10 things you need to to as terran to survive). However you have to arrange that playstyle with your character. Also the ladder system is made so that no matter what dirty builds you use, how good you are, and which race u abuse, you always get 50% win ratio, so I switched back to macro builds, where winning feels way more rewarding than with cheese
PS: Btw: i still cheese from time to time but only those who can't write back GL HF, also french, french canadian and russian players :D No, not because I am racist, but because I made another bullshit statistics the last 3 years of playing SC2: I always ask politely at the beginning "Hey! GL&HF" and later "where are u from, I am from....?" and found out, that whenever I had the following combination, I got cheesed: Russian & Protoss: 95% (based on more than 2300 games, and to define cheese: not the allin-builds from above, I mean DT rush, 1 Base allins, hidden/proxy stuff etc). French and French Canadian& Toss 90%, French and french Canadians & Zerg: 70%, Same with Terran 37%.
Played on EU and NA Servers, also I played Terran back then, now I play every race, which is interesting, cause when I play other races I don't get cheesed that often (only in mirror matches like ZvZ -> lots of 6 Pool or fast mass lings or 2 base mutas, PvP)
Soul Train Genius' Soul Plane Seed Max out Inca Special Huk YOLO Triple Double Anypro Anytime Choya Gate Stardust Bust Naniwa's Double Dare The Warp Prism Delivery sOs' 100,000 proxy Swag Train Swag Gate San Gate The Hongun Prayer Arthur's GIlded Gates Gold Train Oracles of Delphi Spirit Bomb Wall of Has sOs' 100k Cannons The MVP Salvage The Express Train The MVP 3 gate
On April 02 2014 01:30 stuchiu wrote: Soul Train Genius' Soul Plane Seed Max out Inca Special Huk YOLO Triple Double Anypro Anytime Choya Gate Stardust Bust Naniwa's Double Dare The Warp Prism Delivery sOs' 100,000 proxy Swag Train Swag Gate San Gate The Hongun Prayer Arthur's GIlded Gates Gold Train Oracles of Delphi Spirit Bomb Wall of Has sOs' 100k Cannons The MVP Salvage The Express Train The MVP 3 gate
On April 02 2014 01:50 Noocta wrote: The funny part is that you can go play protoss and grind ladder until Master just by following those builds.
And then continue qualifying to the GSL finals Inca style. Or achieve highest Aligulac vZ (Like San did with zealot pressure every game). The possibilities are endless!
WTF is this? Seeing this kind of thread on TL actually really makes me sad. I am not one of the balance whiners. I actually just try to enjoy the game.
On April 02 2014 01:50 Noocta wrote: The funny part is that you can go play protoss and grind ladder until Master just by following those builds.
And then continue qualifying to the GSL finals Inca style. Or achieve highest Aligulac vZ (Like San did with zealot pressure every game). The possibilities are endless!
I mean, if you're serious about it, those are some pretty legit builds.
wait, Protoss players really need a guide that says: build whatever you want and move with it to your opponent. He may not see it coming and then it works.
On April 01 2014 23:12 Heartland wrote: Please consider adding this game to the bullshit list
A brief description is that it's one base, until Has expands into MMA's natural. It's proxy oracle that turns into proxy VR, that turns into proxy Tempest. It takes 15 minutes or so to play out.
Oh, and there's cannons. And Has is on one gate the entire time. And then he photon overcharges the proxy nexus.
On April 02 2014 02:00 Kon-Tiki wrote: Also, it is extremely surprising to me how many people don't seem to understand that this is expressly intended as a joke
The knowledge and understanding we have provided for the Protoss has race has had an affect bigger than any patch from Blizzard.
Couple mistakes in the writeup. Crikey, it's effect, not affect.
Will read the rest later.. haha.
Now here's the difficult question for you. What day is it? Now then, do you think we noticed those and left them in deliberately, or, do you think we just didn't notice?
The knowledge and understanding we have provided for the Protoss has race has had an affect bigger than any patch from Blizzard.
Couple mistakes in the writeup. Crikey, it's effect, not affect.
Will read the rest later.. haha.
Now here's the difficult question for you. What day is it? Now then, do you think we noticed those and left them in deliberately, or, do you think we just didn't notice?
THE CHOICE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE
haha.. lol.. well seeing as how they appear to be common mistakes, I'm going to have to go with didn't notice them.
The knowledge and understanding we have provided for the Protoss has race has had an affect bigger than any patch from Blizzard.
Couple mistakes in the writeup. Crikey, it's effect, not affect.
Will read the rest later.. haha.
Now here's the difficult question for you. What day is it? Now then, do you think we noticed those and left them in deliberately, or, do you think we just didn't notice?
THE CHOICE IS YOURS AND YOURS ALONE
haha.. lol.. well seeing as how they appear to be common mistakes, I'm going to have to go with didn't notice them.
On April 02 2014 03:26 -HuShang- wrote: Seemed really nice at first, then I realized the 2 base pvt blink stalker all in isn't even written out properly zzz....
On April 02 2014 03:26 -HuShang- wrote: Seemed really nice at first, then I realized the 2 base pvt blink stalker all in isn't even written out properly zzz....
Mind = blown! Despite being outdated, these builds still work amazingly well up until masters. Someone made a booboo and gave Protoss' an Easter present instead of a joke on April 1st!
On April 02 2014 03:26 -HuShang- wrote: Seemed really nice at first, then I realized the 2 base pvt blink stalker all in isn't even written out properly zzz....
And that was taken directly from a duckdeok game. It's correct, yo. Gas timings can vary, but that's the most efficient way, imo.
EDIT: Wait, did I just fooled.
#REKT
Would be funny but no I wasn't april foolsing . That's not the most efficient way to do it, I tried the build exactly as it was written and it was so off. The gas timings aren't correct and it says nothing about 2 probes in gas or how long to keep them in there.
Also, note that I'm not attacking your credibility. My purpose in posting this is so that you can edit your guide and provide a more accurate build for anybody wishing to try this out .
The actual build after tinkering for 20 minutes and looking at the vods you linked:
9 pylon **Chronoboost x7 on nexus** 13 gate 14 gas (2 probes) 16 pylon 17 gas (2 probes) 18 core **probe scout** 21 zealot (cancel) 21 nexus 21 MSC 23 pylon 23 warpgate 24 stalker *place extra probe on each gas before starting twilight council* 27 twilight council 29 stalker 33 blink (constant chronoboost) 35 gate 36 stalker 41 gate **cut probes at 36** 43 gate(x3)
Hits @8:30 with 14 stalkers All chronoboost saved for blink after main base saturation
Note: most of the build I wrote is just more specific and the only real problems with the build were the gas timings but even so I don't really think we should be simplifying builds so much. Or if we are making builds for lower league players that are easy to follow the whole build should be catered to them, not just the gate timings. This build for example with probes being put on mid build isn't really noob friendly? So why make the gate timings noob friendly. Just my 2 cents.
Replay of me doing it vs ai: http://drop.sc/377929 (10 seconds faster than duckdeok did vs innovation. vs ai and not innovation though haha ;D)
Thanks!!! I was trying to play some ladder as protoss and I had no idea about start bos. Always trying to get that freakin 100 gas for msc into my builds.
God, don't give more talentless build order robots guides on how to execute the most irritating strats out there, pretty please? Made me laugh like fuck mind
This is the best way to prove that protoss might be less powerful than we think it is and to start finding solutions against those builds we hate so much !
Hey guys!!! We found out why Protoss is so good! It's because we keep providing players good strategies and promoting players using Protoss for easy wins. Oh, on another note, here's another guide on playing Protoss... Oh, you thought we were gonna help Zerg or Terran? HAHAHAHA
On April 02 2014 03:26 -HuShang- wrote: Seemed really nice at first, then I realized the 2 base pvt blink stalker all in isn't even written out properly zzz....
And that was taken directly from a duckdeok game. It's correct, yo. Gas timings can vary, but that's the most efficient way, imo.
EDIT: Wait, did I just fooled.
#REKT
Would be funny but no I wasn't april foolsing . That's not the most efficient way to do it, I tried the build exactly as it was written and it was so off. The gas timings aren't correct and it says nothing about 2 probes in gas or how long to keep them in there.
Also, note that I'm not attacking your credibility. My purpose in posting this is so that you can edit your guide and provide a more accurate build for anybody wishing to try this out .
The actual build after tinkering for 20 minutes and looking at the vods you linked:
9 pylon **Chronoboost x7 on nexus** 13 gate 14 gas (2 probes) 16 pylon 17 gas (2 probes) 18 core **probe scout** 21 zealot (cancel) 21 nexus 21 MSC 23 pylon 23 warpgate 24 stalker *place extra probe on each gas before starting twilight council* 27 twilight council 29 stalker 33 blink (constant chronoboost) 35 gate 36 stalker 41 gate **cut probes at 36** 43 gate(x3)
Hits @8:30 with 14 stalkers All chronoboost saved for blink after main base saturation
Note: most of the build I wrote is just more specific and the only real problems with the build were the gas timings but even so I don't really think we should be simplifying builds so much. Or if we are making builds for lower league players that are easy to follow the whole build should be catered to them, not just the gate timings. This build for example with probes being put on mid build isn't really noob friendly? So why make the gate timings noob friendly. Just my 2 cents.
Replay of me doing it vs ai: http://drop.sc/377929 (10 seconds faster than duckdeok did vs innovation. vs ai and not innovation though haha ;D)
Unless otherwise noted, it's always 3 on gas. I've used that build several times and always hit the timing at 8:30 without any problems, so.....I don't know lol.
What is this? I don't think any of those builds are bullshit... All of them are legit, and proper builds that should be utilized in every tournament. The protoss race is just like my name suggests: Advantageous Kappa.
On April 02 2014 08:20 Caladan wrote: Awesome Idra BW meme in title. I even know the game he wrote this, against Draco building carriers. :D Good times.
Also awesome "guide" you wrote there. Protoss is bullshit. Why don't have the other races so much cheese capabilities? :O
just wait until the zerg and terran ones are released! + Show Spoiler +
not even once.. good write up, a little bit out there in some places but I think that's just because you're half mocking the current attitude going on vs toss
This is really cool and funny guide, but the DT 4 gate isn't clear enough. I've tried it twice and the benchmarks are pretty much impossible to hit.
Do you only chrono probes twice? Because when I did that, I built 3 gateways at 21 supply instead of 23 and they still didn't line up with wg research at all. Do you cut probes to get a twillight coucil + wg? I didn't have enough resources to start both at the same time. On the screenshot, there are 3 dts on the map at 6 minutes (not 4), but my gateways finish after that. What time on the in game clock are you supposed to get your gateways?
On April 02 2014 09:54 YesEvil wrote: With the Kill-a-zerg tasteless build. Why do you have 5 assimilators on 2 bases?
You don't. The 32/34 assimilator timing has the 2 in parentheses rather than x2 because it is indicating that it is your second assimilator total. The assimilator x2 at around 8:10 is when you build your third and fourth assimilators.
You don't. The 32/34 assimilator timing has the 2 in parentheses rather than x2 because it is indicating that it is your second assimilator total. The assimilator x2 at around 8:10 is when you build your third and fourth assimilators.
On April 02 2014 10:18 vhapter wrote: This is really cool and funny guide, but the DT 4 gate isn't clear enough. I've tried it twice and the benchmarks are pretty much impossible to hit.
Do you only chrono probes twice? Because when I did that, I built 3 gateways at 21 supply instead of 23 and they still didn't line up with wg research at all. Do you cut probes to get a twillight coucil + wg? I didn't have enough resources to start both at the same time. On the screenshot, there are 3 dts on the map at 6 minutes (not 4), but my gateways finish after that. What time on the in game clock are you supposed to get your gateways?
You can always follow the old NonY adage: "Any Protoss build is better when you stop building probes 2 minutes earlier and build more gateways."
The least you TL strategy writers (magnificent sons of a bitch) can do in penance for this great evil is to make a follow up "how to play against bullshit builds" thing Even as protoss I'd kind of like to know how to optimally play against a 10-gate/3-gate, for eg, other than doing an even faster bullshit build x)
Aw man, I recently started laddering again after like a year of just being a spectator. I have to give props for the effort put forth by the TL writers, but god dammit, this is bullshit.
10gate 3gate and 12gate 4gate keeps my PvP win rate nice and high and keeps my frustration toward the matchup to a minimum. Much better to have quick, micro-intensive games that are actually fun than lose to someone who just takes insane risks and wins because the risks they pulled were so stupid that you didn't think they would be dumb enough to do them, but then they did anyway and then somehow dragged the game on for 40 minutes.
On April 02 2014 12:48 moofang wrote: The least you TL strategy writers (magnificent sons of a bitch) can do in penance for this great evil is to make a follow up "how to play against bullshit builds" thing Even as protoss I'd kind of like to know how to optimally play against a 10-gate/3-gate, for eg, other than doing an even faster bullshit build x)
I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
On April 02 2014 03:26 -HuShang- wrote: Seemed really nice at first, then I realized the 2 base pvt blink stalker all in isn't even written out properly zzz....
And that was taken directly from a duckdeok game. It's correct, yo. Gas timings can vary, but that's the most efficient way, imo.
EDIT: Wait, did I just fooled.
#REKT
Would be funny but no I wasn't april foolsing . That's not the most efficient way to do it, I tried the build exactly as it was written and it was so off. The gas timings aren't correct and it says nothing about 2 probes in gas or how long to keep them in there.
Also, note that I'm not attacking your credibility. My purpose in posting this is so that you can edit your guide and provide a more accurate build for anybody wishing to try this out .
The actual build after tinkering for 20 minutes and looking at the vods you linked:
9 pylon **Chronoboost x7 on nexus** 13 gate 14 gas (2 probes) 16 pylon 17 gas (2 probes) 18 core **probe scout** 21 zealot (cancel) 21 nexus 21 MSC 23 pylon 23 warpgate 24 stalker *place extra probe on each gas before starting twilight council* 27 twilight council 29 stalker 33 blink (constant chronoboost) 35 gate 36 stalker 41 gate **cut probes at 36** 43 gate(x3)
Hits @8:30 with 14 stalkers All chronoboost saved for blink after main base saturation
Note: most of the build I wrote is just more specific and the only real problems with the build were the gas timings but even so I don't really think we should be simplifying builds so much. Or if we are making builds for lower league players that are easy to follow the whole build should be catered to them, not just the gate timings. This build for example with probes being put on mid build isn't really noob friendly? So why make the gate timings noob friendly. Just my 2 cents.
Replay of me doing it vs ai: http://drop.sc/377929 (10 seconds faster than duckdeok did vs innovation. vs ai and not innovation though haha ;D)
Unless otherwise noted, it's always 3 on gas. I've used that build several times and always hit the timing at 8:30 without any problems, so.....I don't know lol.
Okay, you can keep doing it wrong but can you change the guide so everyone else can learn it properly ^^
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
Oh my really nice write up!! Lately we have lots of good strategy posts but this would be the best. ..."In conclusion, Protoss is bullshit"( and the title, animated parts) I don't know if I should laugh out loud or feel disgusting lmao
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
No early game threat O.o?
-1-1-1 -mine drop (2 different types) -proxy factory -hellion marine -3 reaper -mass reaper -marauder mine pressure
On April 02 2014 12:48 moofang wrote: The least you TL strategy writers (magnificent sons of a bitch) can do in penance for this great evil is to make a follow up "how to play against bullshit builds" thing Even as protoss I'd kind of like to know how to optimally play against a 10-gate/3-gate, for eg, other than doing an even faster bullshit build x)
Let us know when you figure it out.
Identifying the particular brand of bullshit headed your way is the first step, and that's hard enough as it is.
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
No early game threat O.o?
-1-1-1 -mine drop (2 different types) -proxy factory -hellion marine -3 reaper -mass reaper -marauder mine pressure
Did you catch this part ? "(or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). "
Which of these isn't shut down by a forge and a cannon at each mineral line? 2 stalkers pretty well shut down 3 reaper.
I didn't say it was perfect for toss I just said that toss can open macro vs. T with relatively little fear.
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
No early game threat O.o?
-1-1-1 -mine drop (2 different types) -proxy factory -hellion marine -3 reaper -mass reaper -marauder mine pressure
You must piss yourself with fear thinking about all of those!
On April 02 2014 14:58 Ben... wrote: because the risks they pulled were so stupid that you didn't think they would be dumb enough to do them
classic excuse of someone who doesn't scout well
No. not even close. I'm talking stuff like nexus off no units other than an oracle or cutting crazy corners in unsafe ways. Stupid metagamey builds that you face once and you know how to handle them after playing against them. PvP has always been full of that kinda stuff. Rather than having to deal with that once in a while I'd rather simply end the game quickly and go on to play a different matchup that's actually fun because I do not enjoy anything about macro PvP.
Did you catch this part ? "(or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly).
Which of these isn't shut down by a forge and a cannon at each mineral line?
All of these require different responses zzz...
1) You can't scout 1-1-1 until 7:20 obs. You can't scout minedrop till 7:20 obs. You can't scout late mine drop till 7:20 obs. (keep in mind its really easy to kill the obs and barely any terrans do it)
2) Terran can show gas and get a reactor and no reapers
3) 1-1-1 and mass reaper both lose to blind cannons and look the same as all these other builds.
Typical terran being naive and thinking only their race is hard. Just build 2 cannons in each mineral line.. o boy.. I tell you what. Build 2 turrets in your mineral line. That defends dt and oracle. eZ right? xD.............
You must piss yourself with fear thinking about all of those!
-3 rax no fact -11-11 -1 base medivac marine -proxy tank(polar night)
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
No early game threat O.o?
-1-1-1 -mine drop (2 different types) -proxy factory -hellion marine -3 reaper -mass reaper -marauder mine pressure
1/1/1, mine drop, proxy factory, hellion marine are all 1/1/1, different variations, but all 1/1/1. And all countered with basic scouting.
3 reaper? MSC/Stalkermicro
Mass Reaper? MSC/anything really after scouting
Marauder Mine? Overcharge/basic scouting
Problem with TvP for Terrans is, you can't go for an all in/pressure build because they're all so easy to counter.
Blink all ins still succeed often even if scouted and prepared for. Oracles can still deal some damage to make up for their cost. Cannon in the mineral line? Guess failed mine drop into gg.
Did you catch this part ? "(or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly).
Which of these isn't shut down by a forge and a cannon at each mineral line?
All of these require different responses zzz...
1) You can't scout 1-1-1 until 7:20 obs. You can't scout minedrop till 7:20 obs. You can't scout late mine drop till 7:20 obs. (keep in mind its really easy to kill the obs and barely any terrans do it)
2) Terran can show gas and get a reactor and no reapers
3) 1-1-1 and mass reaper both lose to blind cannons and look the same as all these other builds.
Typical terran being naive and thinking only their race is hard. Just build 2 cannons in each mineral line.. o boy.. I tell you what. Build 2 turrets in your mineral line. That defends dt and oracle. eZ right? xD.............
You must piss yourself with fear thinking about all of those!
-3 rax no fact -11-11 -1 base medivac marine -proxy tank(polar night)
How frustrated exactly are you?
1) MSC/Hallucination/Stalkerpoke/Probe seeing no natural nexus 2) Yes he can. You can count gas, and in case of no reaper, you can poke up. You can stay in his base till 3.05 easily, which is when a marine pops. 3) Mass Reaper doesn't lose to mass cannons, nor does a 1/1/1 all in.
-3 rax no fact, scout it, overcharge + make some units. -11/11 Any standard build holds this is it doesn't start in your base or get a bunker done on highground. -Proxy Tank? Counter it with Proxy Carrier or some basic scouting.
Turrets don't defend vs Oracle/DT btw, and delay terran midgame which is the part you're lining everything up to. Cannons hardly delay you as Protoss is limited mostly by gas and construction time.
Did you catch this part ? "(or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly).
Which of these isn't shut down by a forge and a cannon at each mineral line?
All of these require different responses zzz...
1) You can't scout 1-1-1 until 7:20 obs. You can't scout minedrop till 7:20 obs. You can't scout late mine drop till 7:20 obs. (keep in mind its really easy to kill the obs and barely any terrans do it)
2) Terran can show gas and get a reactor and no reapers
3) 1-1-1 and mass reaper both lose to blind cannons and look the same as all these other builds.
Typical terran being naive and thinking only their race is hard. Just build 2 cannons in each mineral line.. o boy.. I tell you what. Build 2 turrets in your mineral line. That defends dt and oracle. eZ right? xD.............
You must piss yourself with fear thinking about all of those!
-3 rax no fact -11-11 -1 base medivac marine -proxy tank(polar night)
lolol i'm kind of hesitant to even respond to this bc I can't tell if you are trolling.
1) You can't scout 1-1-1 until 7:20 obs. You can't scout minedrop till 7:20 obs. You can't scout late mine drop till 7:20 obs. (keep in mind its really easy to kill the obs and barely any terrans do it)
You don't need to scout mine drop or 1-1-1 - put a cannon in both of ur mineral lines - MSC holds any 1-1-1.
2) Terran can show gas and get a reactor and no reapers
Gas first is different than gas for reapers - watch ur reps.
3) 1-1-1 and mass reaper both lose to blind cannons and look the same as all these other builds.
I'm sorry how does msc and cannons with stlakers lose to mass reapers?
"Typical terran being naive and thinking only their race is hard. Just build 2 cannons in each mineral line.. o boy.. I tell you what. Build 2 turrets in your mineral line. That defends dt and oracle. eZ right? xD............."
This is my favorite part - do me a favor - explain to me what I would build 2 turrets in my mineral lines in response to??
Twilight? So if you are going blink I just lose right? Stargate?? So you can just take a third while I turtle and defend on 2base? rofl.
Anyways wasn't supposed to be a balance discussion - the point is MSC is a step in the right direction imo for minimizing cheese nonsense and T and Z need something similar
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
No early game threat O.o?
-1-1-1 -mine drop (2 different types) -proxy factory -hellion marine -3 reaper -mass reaper -marauder mine pressure
1/1/1, mine drop, proxy factory, hellion marine are all 1/1/1, different variations, but all 1/1/1. And all countered with basic scouting.
3 reaper? MSC/Stalkermicro
Mass Reaper? MSC/anything really after scouting
Marauder Mine? Overcharge/basic scouting
Problem with TvP for Terrans is, you can't go for an all in/pressure build because they're all so easy to counter.
Blink all ins still succeed often even if scouted and prepared for. Oracles can still deal some damage to make up for their cost. Cannon in the mineral line? Guess failed mine drop into gg.
All of the things you're complaining about: blink, oracle and dt all don't have a robo and make mine drop very strong against them. If toss plays super safe then of course he should be able to defend everything. If toss couldn't defend everything then that would be broken.
Cannon in the mineral line? Guess failed mine drop into gg.
Turret at the front of terrans base? Guess dt into gg. -facepalm-
I guess there really is no arguing with diamond players though :/
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
All of these builds can be scouted with appropriate play, they are not overpowered and broken, and good players who aren't playing too greedy can spot them coming and defend.
I think he's trying to say that your opponent can play high variance builds like sOs (AKA proxy void ray one game, nexus first the next) and win a majority of the time. In fact, he suggests it might be the best way to play Protoss. However, if this were true, Rain and Zest wouldn't be the best Protoss players in the world right now.
Bluntly stated: as long as you have good macro and mechanics, you can play safe and beat noobs on ladder playing high variance builds.
Yah let me clarify some. I am a semi active - mid-masters level player on NA. I actually watch a whole lot more starcraft than I play now days. What I'm really saying is that I (as a viewer and a player) am really tired of seeing game outcomes predetermined based on who had more balls / less balls (depending on scenario) I'm not saying you can't sniff out these builds and react appropriately but what I am saying is that it's actually pretty easy to straight up lose games to build order counters (Innovation vs TLhero IEM - 11/11 vs zerg on 4 player maps unscouted etc). I just really don't see what it is that we think they add to the game. Nobody wants to see a 15 minute 3-0 stomping with 3 build order wins..it's not impressive or entertaining. You can argue all day long that "if you play safe and perfectly you can win" but you can't argue that if you play safe and your opponent plays greedy that you should win - again that's more chaos and less skill based. I've seen plenty of pro games to that effect as well.
To make my question more clear I guess - How exactly does having so many different plausable cheese game enders improve the over all state of the game? If someone has a good answer I'm a pretty open minded dude I just can't think of one. Obviously no one wants the game to be 45 minute turtle-fest and I really am ok with the idea of early game action I just feel like there shouldn't be so many ways to just straight up lose based on what build you chose - there should be safe macro oriented builds that don't get blown out of the water by incredible greed (which I'm not saying we are that far off I'm just saying I really don't understand the point of having 3/4 of these timings exist (roach/bane / 1 base blink 2 base blink / 1 base DT/ 11/11 / 6pool etc).
To me personally it doesn't add anything positive to the game - the only thing it does do is allow much lesser skilled individuals to climb higher up on the ladder than they should be and create "meta battles" in the highest level pro games - the latter which I am sort of OK with but I wish it was less frequent.
I'm afraid there's no way to fix it other than to dynamically change the game design. Like, there's obviously these all-ins and such, but even if they somehow managed to remove them from the game while keeping the rest of the game balanced, there would still be the threat of other high variance builds. It's just how the game is constructed via the speed (of the game), the incredibly smooth pathing, the unit AI, mineral gathering, etc., etc. Without a complete overhaul of the core game mechanics, Blizzard can't do anything about high variance builds.
We say that Protoss has the highest percentage of cheeses, but that's only because Protoss has more options available to them early on. If we go back to WoL, Protoss opened almost the same way every game. In fact, most matches looked identical, and the result was a very stale, boring game to watch. Certainly Blizzard needs to watch out and avoid creating too much early game variance, but the element of randomness is SC2 is somewhat a good thing. Like I said, though, I don't think we can completely eliminate the effects of randomness on the game because of the way SC2 is designed at its core.
Ya I hear you on this - my only thing to add would be that even though people bitch about MSC a lot - it sort of did what I'm talking about for Protoss. At least from a Terran perspective there is almost no early game threat for them outside of 11/11 (or if you fail to probe scout gas first and react accordingly). If they did something similar to this for T and Z it might help - but then again I really don't want to create a turtle-fest either.
No early game threat O.o?
-1-1-1 -mine drop (2 different types) -proxy factory -hellion marine -3 reaper -mass reaper -marauder mine pressure
1/1/1, mine drop, proxy factory, hellion marine are all 1/1/1, different variations, but all 1/1/1. And all countered with basic scouting.
3 reaper? MSC/Stalkermicro
Mass Reaper? MSC/anything really after scouting
Marauder Mine? Overcharge/basic scouting
Problem with TvP for Terrans is, you can't go for an all in/pressure build because they're all so easy to counter.
Blink all ins still succeed often even if scouted and prepared for. Oracles can still deal some damage to make up for their cost. Cannon in the mineral line? Guess failed mine drop into gg.
All of the things you're complaining about: blink, oracle and dt all don't have a robo and make mine drop very strong against them. If toss plays super safe then of course he should be able to defend everything. If toss couldn't defend everything then that would be broken.
On April 03 2014 03:16 SC2John wrote: Whoa whoa whoa, guys. Let's not make this a discussion on balance or whether or not Terran has any power. The subject matter here is not Terran.
The subject is:
#blinktoss #OP #WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYOLO
#blinktoss *wrong build, too lazy to change it to the correct one I posted on page 10*
On April 02 2014 22:14 DomeGetta wrote: I just want to first open with this is an incredible thread lol! That picture is one of the best gifs I've seen lololol. Anyways - I want to get on my soap box for just a few moments here about this type of play in general. Obviously it would be pretty rare for anyone from Blizz to read the comments on this post regardless of how glorious it is but I digress.
All of these brutal timings that exist in the game - (to which protoss has an incredible sum, zerg slightly less and terran probably the least) should be eliminated via nerf! Speaking strictly to the good of the game and not at all to balance: The existence of these timings add chaos to the game and minimize the impact of the skill of the players on the outcome.
The "standard" builds that develop now have to incorporate inefficient safe-guards against all of this (and yes people talk about scouting but scouting for every timing that can kill you is inefficient it is an investment and if your opponent chooses to ignore it you will be very behind).
Now - if pro A chooses to scout for the timings and play safe and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro B definitely wins all things equal. If pro A chooses to execute the timings and pro B chooses to say fuck it and greeds out pro A definitely wins. The outcome is predetermined and not at all in the spirit of the game imo.
I understand the positive impact that early aggressive timings can have on the game and maybe not 100% of them should be nerfed out but there really shouldn't be so many. It really does take away the aspect that the better player wins more of the time (i.e. duckeduck / billowy type nonsense).
In the spirit of competition don't we want the best player (macro / micro / multitask) to be the winner more of the time? Not just the player who guessed right 2 out of 3 times on that particular day??
Pls help Blizz QQ (;D)
Anyways cool thread lol - having the knowledge of these builds will surely help my cheese defense but make my standard play safer / less efficient and winrate in macro games go down lol.
all of this can be stopped with proper scouting, even smashed dare I say.
10 g 3 g for example is going to die to a toss going DTs in the proper manner, which is a safe expand.
if you get killed trying a 1 gate fe against a 10 g 3 g.. well then yeah, stuff like that SHOULD kill you
On April 03 2014 05:19 aZealot wrote: Agreed. IMO, the game would be significantly worse off for the lack of bullshit.
It'd be more fair if all races had freewin cards to pull. As it stands now, Protoss (the race with mostly the easiest to execute builds, can get away at most levels beneath the pro level turtling all game long into F2 a click (hyperbole)).
If the other races had the same kind of wonky shit that could work in a blue moon... But MSC and Sentry prevent pretty much every Terran/Zerg aggresive build from working verse Protoss.
Fact of the matter is, this guide is obviously a massive troll, but sadly, all these builds are viable and very strong.
In short, Protoss is easier compared to the other races below the pro level and the fact they also have these kind of freewin coinflip yolo builds is frustrating.
I get frustrated when rolling vs Protoss or as Protoss. vs Protoss because I know I'll be on my toes all game long for the moment he decides it's fun to get out of his natural, and as Protoss because it is just pretty damn boring.
Protoss needs to be able to move out on the map, because the army without collosi/templar/archon is way to weak to attempt a move out. Recall is a stupid bandaid. Mothershipcore, Collosi, Templar and Archon should be nerfed accordingly. Tadam, Protoss can all of a sudden roam the map and is not so fucking infuriating to play as or against. And maybe find some way to fix the way hidden buildings work.
To come back to the quote, no, the game wouldn't per se be worse off without a lot of these builds. The sad thing is, Protoss needs either these bullshit builds or turtleturtleturtle 15 sec fight gg because the entire race is poorly designed.
On April 03 2014 05:19 aZealot wrote: Agreed. IMO, the game would be significantly worse off for the lack of bullshit.
It'd be more fair if all races had freewin cards to pull. As it stands now, Protoss (the race with mostly the easiest to execute builds, can get away at most levels beneath the pro level turtling all game long into F2 a click (hyperbole)).
If the other races had the same kind of wonky shit that could work in a blue moon... But MSC and Sentry prevent pretty much every Terran/Zerg aggresive build from working verse Protoss.
Fact of the matter is, this guide is obviously a massive troll, but sadly, all these builds are viable and very strong.
In short, Protoss is easier compared to the other races below the pro level and the fact they also have these kind of freewin coinflip yolo builds is frustrating.
I get frustrated when rolling vs Protoss or as Protoss. vs Protoss because I know I'll be on my toes all game long for the moment he decides it's fun to get out of his natural, and as Protoss because it is just pretty damn boring.
Protoss needs to be able to move out on the map, because the army without collosi/templar/archon is way to weak to attempt a move out. Recall is a stupid bandaid. Mothershipcore, Collosi, Templar and Archon should be nerfed accordingly. Tadam, Protoss can all of a sudden roam the map and is not so fucking infuriating to play as or against. And maybe find some way to fix the way hidden buildings work.
To come back to the quote, no, the game wouldn't per se be worse off without a lot of these builds. The sad thing is, Protoss needs either these bullshit builds or turtleturtleturtle 15 sec fight gg because the entire race is poorly designed.
Heh, I disagree with most of what you have said. I think it would be difficult for you to be more wrong.
But, I doubt a discussion will get us anywhere. Nor is this the place for it.
Edit/ Just to be clear, by bullshit, I don't mean just Protoss bullshit. I mean all the bullshit in the game.
On April 03 2014 08:59 Xinzoe wrote: 87% PvT winrate so far with kill-a-terran-tasteless build from 56% ---> 67% in less than 24 hours and about to get promoted to GM ( I THINK)
On April 03 2014 08:59 Xinzoe wrote: 87% PvT winrate so far with kill-a-terran-tasteless build from 56% ---> 67% in less than 24 hours and about to get promoted to GM ( I THINK)
The day will come when zerg rise again, and then it is no holds barred payback time.
But to be honest, in gold league where I currently play, I see no imbalance of any sort. Both my execution as well as of the opponent is too sloppy for any imbalance to factor in.
I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
I wasn't trying to start a balance whine - clearly Protoss is the strongest race at present but there always has to be a strongest race. The point of my reply (and relevance to this particular amazing thread) was for people to start advocating to blizz for LOTV or any future patch that if at all possible - minimize the level of "bullshit!". Game would be better without AS MUCH of it (can leave some for the lolz) - it's turning the best and hardest strategy game into high card (would anyone really want to casually play or watch professional "High Card" game?) *note high card rules: each player dealt 1 card- high card win!
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
At the highest levels, Protoss is definitely balanced with the other races, especially after the latest round of balance changes. Many people are saying that TvP is Terran-favored in Korea, and PvZ has always been pretty fair (when the Zerg doesn't stupidly die to zealot pressure). Quit balance whining, this thread is for having fun; nobody gives a shit that you can't beat Protoss on ladder.
Protoss is FAAAAAAAAAAR from being broken like BL/infestor.
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
At the highest levels, Protoss is definitely balanced with the other races, especially after the latest round of balance changes. Many people are saying that TvP is Terran-favored in Korea, and PvZ has always been pretty fair (when the Zerg doesn't stupidly die to zealot pressure). Quit balance whining, this thread is for having fun; nobody gives a shit that you can't beat Protoss on ladder.
Protoss is FAAAAAAAAAAR from being broken like BL/infestor.
Saying something is definitely balanced and actually being balanced are two completely different things. yawn
Edit: Also, funny you dont address my points about this stuff hurting viewership. Is that because you agree? From what I have heard, SOS vs Hero was the biggest letdown so far. Lets step away from balance for a moment - even IF the game is balanced, is it ok that builds like these permeate the game anywhere from plat league to the highest levels of play? Is your ability to milk out free wins on ladder with gimmicky builds worth the decline in the quality of high level games we get to see, especially in finals? Is this game only for you to enjoy? Is nobody else allowed to enoy starcraft 2 anymore?
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
dude protoss isn't the reason for this, it's blizzard
look at the game, the UI, the arcade and compare it with games that are run by valve and such. It looks pathetic, there is hardly any new content ever put in.
hell after what 6 months? Blizzard come up with this grand idea of "hey we'll make it so you can listen to bw music if you want too!"
riveting... I can see why when you go under jobs in blizzard it says "lead designer" under sc2. Thankfully it took whoever forever and a day to figure out dustin browder has gotta gtfo
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
At the highest levels, Protoss is definitely balanced with the other races, especially after the latest round of balance changes. Many people are saying that TvP is Terran-favored in Korea, and PvZ has always been pretty fair (when the Zerg doesn't stupidly die to zealot pressure). Quit balance whining, this thread is for having fun; nobody gives a shit that you can't beat Protoss on ladder.
Protoss is FAAAAAAAAAAR from being broken like BL/infestor.
Saying something is definitely balanced and actually being balanced are two completely different things. yawn
Edit: Also, funny you dont address my points about this stuff hurting viewership. Is that because you agree? From what I have heard, SOS vs Hero was the biggest letdown so far. Lets step away from balance for a moment - even IF the game is balanced, is it ok that builds like these permeate the game anywhere from plat league to the highest levels of play? Is your ability to milk out free wins on ladder with gimmicky builds worth the decline in the quality of high level games we get to see, especially in finals? Is this game only for you to enjoy? Is nobody else allowed to enoy starcraft 2 anymore?
I play Zerg currently. I like watching SC2. SC2 numbers are up and looking really good right now (though, admittedly, not as great as they could be). Negative outlooks don't help the scene at all. You have a personal problem.
Quit whining.
EDIT: Final warning.
EDIT: Actually, I should probably clarify. I don't have a problem with you voicing your concern about the state of Protoss and how you feel playing against it, but that's more blog material and doesn't belong here. As I said, this was meant to be a fun thread, there's no point in polluting it with a bunch of serious accusations about how Protoss is killing the game. Please. Stop.
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
At the highest levels, Protoss is definitely balanced with the other races, especially after the latest round of balance changes. Many people are saying that TvP is Terran-favored in Korea, and PvZ has always been pretty fair (when the Zerg doesn't stupidly die to zealot pressure). Quit balance whining, this thread is for having fun; nobody gives a shit that you can't beat Protoss on ladder.
Protoss is FAAAAAAAAAAR from being broken like BL/infestor.
Saying something is definitely balanced and actually being balanced are two completely different things. yawn
Edit: Also, funny you dont address my points about this stuff hurting viewership. Is that because you agree? From what I have heard, SOS vs Hero was the biggest letdown so far. Lets step away from balance for a moment - even IF the game is balanced, is it ok that builds like these permeate the game anywhere from plat league to the highest levels of play? Is your ability to milk out free wins on ladder with gimmicky builds worth the decline in the quality of high level games we get to see, especially in finals? Is this game only for you to enjoy? Is nobody else allowed to enoy starcraft 2 anymore?
I play Zerg currently. I like watching SC2. SC2 numbers are up and looking really good right now (though, admittedly, not as great as they could be). Negative outlooks don't help the scene at all. You have a personal problem.
Quit whining.
EDIT: Final warning.
EDIT: Actually, I should probably clarify. I don't have a problem with you voicing your concern about the state of Protoss and how you feel playing against it, but that's more blog material and doesn't belong here. As I said, this was meant to be a fun thread, there's no point in polluting it with a bunch of serious accusations about how Protoss is killing the game. Please. Stop.
This thread was an attempt to instigate shrouded in the joke that is april fools. Sure, its 'fun' for you. But it is actually anything but fun for a large percentage of people who bought this game. Maybe when you realize that you may do some critical thinking and adopt a more serious outlook about the game I am guessing you wish to see thrive.
This is a joke, I cannot understand people pissed off about this guide. Protoss has some crazy timing pushes and transitions, so what. The other races have them too but the problem in sc2 is that every single player wants to macro the hell out instead of doing something different. Shit if you 1 barrack 1CC I hope you die to these timing pushes because that's the reason these pushes were created. Do you guys remember 1/1/1 back in the days? That hurt a lot but Protoss was able to come up with a counter after several months of QQ. First version of sc2 when Mauraders were raping Protoss like there's no tomorrow? Don't forget. I miss the sc1 days, a lot of OP units but nobody complained and it wasn't always about "If I cannot FE THE GAME IS BROKEN!!!"
On April 04 2014 01:48 Teoita wrote: Protoss is bullshit in bw too, without oracles, warpgates, dt's, blink stalkers, immortals, msc or sentries: + Show Spoiler +
All the game design experts in here should probably keep that in mind.
Wrong. Brood War was skillful. Everyone drank expensive alcohol and wore monacles while discussing the finer points of philosophy between games. Men macroed every game because that was true skill, and if you did any sort of all in timing you were ostracized, lost all your fangirls and kicked from Kespa. If your all in was especially egregious you were sent to north korea - and not one person cried for you.
On April 04 2014 01:48 Teoita wrote: Protoss is bullshit in bw too, without oracles, warpgates, dt's, blink stalkers, immortals, msc or sentries: + Show Spoiler +
All the game design experts in here should probably keep that in mind.
Glorious! Pity I can't watch them all before going to work. I love watching shit like that go down (from all races).
It's funny, though. I've never played that way in all my 1v1. I've yet to proxy 2-Gate/proxy Oracle/Blink all-in vs T. Maybe, next season. I keep saying that, but I usually find myself deferring to my safe macro Toss play. I'll try harder next season.
Great guide for those who enjoy the bullshit Protoss can offer. If only someone would write The Great Mozzarella Guide to Zerg and Would you like some wine Terran with your cheese. All in the world would be right. Haha… Just imagine the chaos on ladder.
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
A few things, overall I agree that in general Sc2 from beta until now, has always had to much cheese/all ins. Every race has nasty forms of it though, it's not just protoss.I think the race gets a bad rap. However, it's been beat to death and nothing is going to change. There are plenty of protoss players who struggle with certain matchups, and I'm thankful for the writers who wrote this, and you should be too.
Every player, regardless of race or skill level, should mix some cheesy builds into their play. They should practice them, learn to execute them, and understand all the contingencies of them. It has been the downfall of plenty of pro's to not use and practice enough cheese, and execute it well. It is the reason players like MC and MVP have so many trophies, they can macro like a boss or throw in a flawlessly executed allin or cheese.
On April 04 2014 05:23 Rasias wrote: I would love to see similar guides for Zerg and Terran, as i've quite some problems with cheesing myself (as Zerg).
the closest thing i can think of to this type of bullshit for zerg is in zvz where you just build a bunch of lings off 2hatch/1base saturation and yolo it at your opponent. it's nowhere near as strong as protoss bullshit, but it's still good for some free wins against zergs who just want to lazily macro up to 2base roach. scout his overlord positioning with your overlords and use a wonky attack path for extra points
another fun total bullshit build that can beat good players based on pure "what the fuck, is he really doing this?/there's no way this will work" surprise factor if they underreact is zvt 7pool + timed pull of 1-3 drones to block the wall from going down
and in zvp/zvz, good old 2-3 hatch nydus roach/queen all ins can still make people rage pretty hard
sadly of course none of these are as good against mid-high level players as the stuff in the OP
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
Don't even try. This thread is full of hypocrits and trolls. Every ladder player between platinum and masters knows most Protosses just win because the cheese is strong and easy and they can't really be cheesed themselves. I laugh my pants loff everytime I hold a cheese and see them struggle with anything macro-oriented for the entire game (no ups, 100/100 on every nexus, no expand, no extra gates, forgetting tech, floating 2k/1k). That being said, playing Protoss is just as frustrating, because every game you win is instantly devalued because your race is op/bullshit. And playing macroToss isn't that much fun because you feel abused because your army can't do anything when under 100supply...
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
Don't even try. This thread is full of hypocrits and trolls. Every ladder player between platinum and masters knows most Protosses just win because the cheese is strong and easy and they can't really be cheesed themselves. I laugh my pants loff everytime I hold a cheese and see them struggle with anything macro-oriented for the entire game (no ups, 100/100 on every nexus, no expand, no extra gates, forgetting tech, floating 2k/1k). That being said, playing Protoss is just as frustrating, because every game you win is instantly devalued because your race is op/bullshit. And playing macroToss isn't that much fun because you feel abused because your army can't do anything when under 100supply...
The race needs fixing, but well, who am I...
Macro Protoss players are by far the most scary thing on the ladder. The few Protoss that always play macro - they are so good at it and you are so shit at macro game because you hardly ever get to train one, since everybody is just cheesing. It's frustrating, because I feel like I'm so shitty at ZvP despite it usually being the MU with my highest Winrate.
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
Don't even try. This thread is full of hypocrits and trolls. Every ladder player between platinum and masters knows most Protosses just win because the cheese is strong and easy and they can't really be cheesed themselves. I laugh my pants loff everytime I hold a cheese and see them struggle with anything macro-oriented for the entire game (no ups, 100/100 on every nexus, no expand, no extra gates, forgetting tech, floating 2k/1k). That being said, playing Protoss is just as frustrating, because every game you win is instantly devalued because your race is op/bullshit. And playing macroToss isn't that much fun because you feel abused because your army can't do anything when under 100supply...
The race needs fixing, but well, who am I...
Macro Protoss players are by far the most scary thing on the ladder. The few Protoss that always play macro - they are so good at it and you are so shit at macro game because you hardly ever get to train one, since everybody is just cheesing. It's frustrating, because I feel like I'm so shitty at ZvP despite it usually being the MU with my highest Winrate.
Macroprotoss is scary to play against, but so is macro terran or macro zerg. It's just that macro protoss is a bit boring to play. You're never safe to take map control until late in te game. Also, it is really easy to die to obnoxious stuff. You as a Zerg should know the feeling: you scout some attack, but aren't sure how exCtly to hold it of, or your tech is slightly late. Protosses that want to take a third have that happen to them all the time. What I want to say is, Protoss cheese is so easy and powerful, while macro is actually pretty hard (despite what some Terrans think, Toss isn't trollol F2a click t click t click). Protoss is weak until an army is established. Makes macro games boring and hard, compared to fastpaced, easy cheeses.
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
Don't even try. This thread is full of hypocrits and trolls. Every ladder player between platinum and masters knows most Protosses just win because the cheese is strong and easy and they can't really be cheesed themselves. I laugh my pants loff everytime I hold a cheese and see them struggle with anything macro-oriented for the entire game (no ups, 100/100 on every nexus, no expand, no extra gates, forgetting tech, floating 2k/1k). That being said, playing Protoss is just as frustrating, because every game you win is instantly devalued because your race is op/bullshit. And playing macroToss isn't that much fun because you feel abused because your army can't do anything when under 100supply...
The race needs fixing, but well, who am I...
Macro Protoss players are by far the most scary thing on the ladder. The few Protoss that always play macro - they are so good at it and you are so shit at macro game because you hardly ever get to train one, since everybody is just cheesing. It's frustrating, because I feel like I'm so shitty at ZvP despite it usually being the MU with my highest Winrate.
Macroprotoss is scary to play against, but so is macro terran or macro zerg. It's just that macro protoss is a bit boring to play. You're never safe to take map control until late in te game. Also, it is really easy to die to obnoxious stuff. You as a Zerg should know the feeling: you scout some attack, but aren't sure how exCtly to hold it of, or your tech is slightly late. Protosses that want to take a third have that happen to them all the time. What I want to say is, Protoss cheese is so easy and powerful, while macro is actually pretty hard (despite what some Terrans think, Toss isn't trollol F2a click t click t click). Protoss is weak until an army is established. Makes macro games boring and hard, compared to fastpaced, easy cheeses.
My point simply is: The macro Protoss players usually have the luxury of always training useful games. As their opponent, you need to have two times the amount of games played against Protoss to have the same amount of macro experience. Whether or not it is harder or boring, I don't care. It's their own choice to play Protoss. If they wouldn't like to play like that, they wouldn't play Protoss. But in fact, Protoss has the most players, and I think it is because most people actually like Protoss gameplay. It makes for shit games for the opponent and the viewers, but the Protoss player himself has a ton of fun executing a rush. Similarily to Swam Hosts or turtle mech or macro Protoss, which is very fun to play with if you like that slow methodical gameplay. But playing against it, with the opponent just building one inpenetrable position after the other is pretty boring.
On April 03 2014 22:17 johnbongham wrote: I wish this were funny but this exact bullshit is the reason why people tune out for the finals of pretty much any big tournament. That last final in Katowice seemed to be completely forgettable - but I wouldn't know - because I stopped watching when Jjakji got beat 3-0 in the quarters or semis or whatever. Also this upcoming gsl final? Nope, not watching that either, couldn't care less...I fail to see how something is funny when its quite clearly hurting the viewership of our 'beloved' game. As an oldshcool counterstrike fan who switched to sc2 upon release, it blows my mind that CSGO crushed sc2 in viewership for the final. I never would have expected that in a thousand years. Are free wins for protoss players really worth the damage its doing to the game in terms of playerbase and spectators? I mean, I know most kids are playing protoss because they don't want to actually learn how to play, but not everybody is hopping on the bandwagon. Many people are just playing a different game altogether. The idea that terran and zerg players(mostly terran) are whining for the sake of whining is ludicrous. They are whining because the game is clearly broken. Maybe protoss can't win 100% of the time, but anytime I DO beat a protoss, it is usually the result of my protoss opponent being incompetent and making terrible decisions. If a protoss player is at all competent at executing builds, the sky is the limit really. Hit your timing, do your damage, and if no GG is called then jus take a 3rd make a deathball and finish the job.
Its great that the tl "strategy writers" can propagate this stuff and think its funny, but at the same time this site bans people for opening their mouths about problems which have gone on way too long without being fully addressed. You cant instigate stuff and a the same time punish people for giving their opinion. The arrogance is maddening.
Don't even try. This thread is full of hypocrits and trolls. Every ladder player between platinum and masters knows most Protosses just win because the cheese is strong and easy and they can't really be cheesed themselves. I laugh my pants loff everytime I hold a cheese and see them struggle with anything macro-oriented for the entire game (no ups, 100/100 on every nexus, no expand, no extra gates, forgetting tech, floating 2k/1k). That being said, playing Protoss is just as frustrating, because every game you win is instantly devalued because your race is op/bullshit. And playing macroToss isn't that much fun because you feel abused because your army can't do anything when under 100supply...
The race needs fixing, but well, who am I...
Macro Protoss players are by far the most scary thing on the ladder. The few Protoss that always play macro - they are so good at it and you are so shit at macro game because you hardly ever get to train one, since everybody is just cheesing. It's frustrating, because I feel like I'm so shitty at ZvP despite it usually being the MU with my highest Winrate.
Macroprotoss is scary to play against, but so is macro terran or macro zerg. It's just that macro protoss is a bit boring to play. You're never safe to take map control until late in te game. Also, it is really easy to die to obnoxious stuff. You as a Zerg should know the feeling: you scout some attack, but aren't sure how exCtly to hold it of, or your tech is slightly late. Protosses that want to take a third have that happen to them all the time. What I want to say is, Protoss cheese is so easy and powerful, while macro is actually pretty hard (despite what some Terrans think, Toss isn't trollol F2a click t click t click). Protoss is weak until an army is established. Makes macro games boring and hard, compared to fastpaced, easy cheeses.
My point simply is: The macro Protoss players usually have the luxury of always training useful games. As their opponent, you need to have two times the amount of games played against Protoss to have the same amount of macro experience. Whether or not it is harder or boring, I don't care. It's their own choice to play Protoss. If they wouldn't like to play like that, they wouldn't play Protoss. But in fact, Protoss has the most players, and I think it is because most people actually like Protoss gameplay. It makes for shit games for the opponent and the viewers, but the Protoss player himself has a ton of fun executing a rush. Similarily to Swam Hosts or turtle mech or macro Protoss, which is very fun to play with if you like that slow methodical gameplay. But playing against it, with the opponent just building one inpenetrable position after the other is pretty boring.
Actually, playing verse Mech is fun, because Mech can be caught out of position regularly. Protoss is actually pretty damn mobile for a turtle race. I recently read something about area control and how fun it was. Area control is very fun for the player executing it, and supercrustrating for those fighting against it. What can we call are control...? Sieged tanks, PF, PDD, HSM, EMP, Nuke (the last four are situational, PF is only defensivd) Fungal Growth, Broodlord, Abduct, Hosts, Creep, Blinding Cloud (Zerg being the super fast race, their area control is pretty weak, but less important) Storm, Time Warp, Forcefield, Collosi, Tempest, Overcharge, "Pylon" Obviously, some stuff is situational, etc, but these are the most regularly seen. Protoss has by far the best control of area's, which should come at a loss of mobility (See: BW Terran Mech). An interesting dynamic occurs when the opponent used superior mobility to abuse the powerful but limited zoning abilities of the slower race. This dynamic is missing with Protoss on the current easy 3 base maps, which, assuming what I sais is true, makes Protoss more fun and the other side of the matchup more frustrating.
However, I'm far offtopic, so PM for anyone who wants to discuss this any further :-)
Really looking to improve the skill ceiling of the ladder with this I see, I admire your contribution sir without this how could we have an enjoyable ladder experience.
On April 05 2014 20:03 covetousrat wrote: The best guide for P since launch. I myself only does 1-2 builds and now im very high masters. Just perfect 1-2 builds is enough to get u masters.
One build per matchup is enough to get you to Masters if you do it well enough. Just look at people who Cannon Rush or 6 Pool or 11/11 to Masters
"the people" are like 1-2 guys we know off... that did so 1-3years ago...
Exactly. I mean, there may be some timing attacks that you can train so hardcore that they get you very far in a matchup. But in general I think you will have a hard time to get to masters like that, simply because even the most successful BO rushes will often run into those aftermath situations, when the game just didnt end. And then you have to be more than a master of one BO. (Obviously I'm talking about allinish/cheesy builds. Standard, at least somewhat reactionary macro play will get you there on its own. But that's hardly "one build", even if the opening or the acquired compositions may always look similar)
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
Is it possible this could be turned into a true compilation of all-ins and timings so that players can learn to put these into their game plans as possible forks?
I used to open with robo expand for obs earlier in HOTS, and I learned from Jim to add in a 2immortal push or the immortal sentry from parting as a gameplan fork if my opponent was really greedy.
Also, can someone please add the Immortal all-in to this list?
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
i agree. granted, it's really frustrating to lose to something you didn't see coming, because it can make you feel like you wasted your time macroing up and preparing for the long game. but it can also be equally rewarding to scout and respond properly and end up holding an attack. the other day on ladder i held a 7gate zvp gateway timing on yeonsu by scouting the spinning forge and spotting units moving out from the watch tower. granted, a better protoss might have macroed better and hidden his units, but the fact remains that in that game i used my instincts in a way that let me hold off a big all-in, and that felt good. i was able to safely say that i outplayed my opponent using legitimate game knowledge. the point of this isn't to brag, the point is that anyone can do what i did and end up with a positive ladder experience because of it!
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
But you might agree that it's annoying that only one of the three races can do bullshit builds efficiently. And please don't tell me T and Z can do anything similar with the same degree of success.
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
But you might agree that it's annoying that only one of the three races can do bullshit builds efficiently. And please don't tell me T and Z can do anything similar with the same degree of success.
Zerg has their own form of bullshit, but it just doesn't look the same. The Zerg bullshit derives from the fact that they can yank their opponent's composition around mercilessly while, especially in lower leagues, remaining untouched economically. Likewise, Zerg can always take the hyvaa approach AKA "I'm gonna allin no matter what and if it fails I'm just going to allin again," a technique that catches a surprising amount of people on ladder offguard.
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
But you might agree that it's annoying that only one of the three races can do bullshit builds efficiently. And please don't tell me T and Z can do anything similar with the same degree of success.
Zerg has their own form of bullshit, but it just doesn't look the same. The Zerg bullshit derives from the fact that they can yank their opponent's composition around mercilessly while, especially in lower leagues, remaining untouched economically. Likewise, Zerg can always take the hyvaa approach AKA "I'm gonna allin no matter what and if it fails I'm just going to allin again," a technique that catches a surprising amount of people on ladder offguard.
It catches a surprising amount of people in tournaments offguard too.
Roach/baneling all-in into nydus hydra bust into INSERT ALL-IN HERE seems a pretty strong tactic, for some weird reason.
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
But you might agree that it's annoying that only one of the three races can do bullshit builds efficiently. And please don't tell me T and Z can do anything similar with the same degree of success.
You of all people shouldn't complain about the lack of Zerg bullshit
On April 06 2014 04:39 SatedSC2 wrote: I guess my point is that the ladder doesn't reward knowledge of a diverse number of builds because you very rarely play the same person multiple times in a row. You only really need 1 build per match-up to do well on the ladder.
Well the bullshit builds interrupt that by requiring different responses. IMO it makes the game much more interesting than some mechanics battle into a death ball clash... but so many people seem to disagree and get angry at having to adapt on the fly.
I dont think people have a problem with having to respond. Most people here are quite good at responding. The bullshit part is that Protoss has so many of those builds that all look the same unless you have scouted every corner of the map. Neither of those builds is good, but Protoss just has the choice to roll a giant dice and no matter how well you play it is impossible to always get a good scout. It's often just randomness
Even I am a Terran I had to smile a bit at the display of these crazy builds. Anyhow, I say that nothing is unbalanced as so many people do whine about.
For me it is more a thing how to approach the game. At the start of HotS Zerg had a really hard time but they adapted after a while using their new units very well. There will be always someone who will say X or Y is unbalanced but a lot of times each player has a tunnel vision.
The writer of this and everybody who contributed to spreading this information will go to hell. I'm already having enough trouble beating Toss, this will make it even worse.
On April 14 2014 02:07 FPyro wrote: The writer of this and everybody who contributed to spreading this information will go to hell. I'm already having enough trouble beating Toss, this will make it even worse.
Are you the person responsible? Is it your doing we (the Zergs) are being dominated again and again by sneaky, evil strategies, like the ones you're speading here? If so, then know this: It's not the judgement of men that you need to be afraid of but God's. He will punish you for the sins commited against this community and then you'll regret everything.
On April 14 2014 02:38 FPyro wrote: Are you the person responsible? Is it your doing we (the Zergs) are being dominated again and again by sneaky, evil strategies, like the ones you're speading here? If so, then know this: It's not the judgement of men that you need to be afraid of but God's. He will punish you for the sins commited against this community and then you'll regret everything.
I'm one of them. You can see the authors of the article down at the bottom of it. Make sure to thank Teoita, SC2John, and Zeromus too. <3
On April 14 2014 02:07 FPyro wrote: The writer of this and everybody who contributed to spreading this information will go to hell. I'm already having enough trouble beating Toss, this will make it even worse.
finally got around to finishing this. All I can say is: glad I'm not playing SCII right now lol. These builds are so sneaky and bullshit that I can see how protoss players would easily win games with them
On April 11 2014 02:11 Mahtasooma wrote: Definitely one of the better guides, but THE most failed april's "joke".
It's like a Banker making a joke about how Banks steal your money, thinking it to be funny, whereas they actually do.
Well, this is a lot better than battlenet forum's april's "joke". At 1st April there was a post saying that protoss was badly designed, and the point of the joke is that the author thinks protoss isn't and it's supposed to be so much fun. Really messed up, and it was even forum-MVP.
On April 27 2014 06:05 Scarx wrote: Got from mid gold to high diamond over the past few weeks by only using a couple of builds from this guide, thank you a lot! :D
See what horrors you have unleashed TL strategy? :p
On April 27 2014 06:05 Scarx wrote: Got from mid gold to high diamond over the past few weeks by only using a couple of builds from this guide, thank you a lot! :D
See what horrors you have unleashed TL strategy? :p
After a week of experiencing these horrors, I'm about ready to retract my part in writing this guide hahaha.
On April 27 2014 06:05 Scarx wrote: Got from mid gold to high diamond over the past few weeks by only using a couple of builds from this guide, thank you a lot! :D
See what horrors you have unleashed TL strategy? :p
On April 27 2014 06:05 Scarx wrote: Got from mid gold to high diamond over the past few weeks by only using a couple of builds from this guide, thank you a lot! :D
See what horrors you have unleashed TL strategy? :p
After a week of experiencing these horrors, I'm about ready to retract my part in writing this guide hahaha.
That's what you get for switching to the flithy, filthy race and betraying the Great Prophet's Works.
FOR TASTELESS
FOR ESPORTS
FOR AIUR
also this article is really close to being the most viewed TL strat release to date, behind the PvZ Zerg guide...which had its fair share of bullshit. All written by me. Dehehehhee.
On April 27 2014 06:05 Scarx wrote: Got from mid gold to high diamond over the past few weeks by only using a couple of builds from this guide, thank you a lot! :D
See what horrors you have unleashed TL strategy? :p
After a week of experiencing these horrors, I'm about ready to retract my part in writing this guide hahaha.
On April 27 2014 06:05 Scarx wrote: Got from mid gold to high diamond over the past few weeks by only using a couple of builds from this guide, thank you a lot! :D
See what horrors you have unleashed TL strategy? :p
After a week of experiencing these horrors, I'm about ready to retract my part in writing this guide hahaha.
That's what you get for switching to the flithy, filthy race and betraying the Great Prophet's Works.
FOR TASTELESS
FOR ESPORTS
FOR AIUR
also this article is really close to being the most viewed TL strat release to date, behind the PvZ Zerg guide...which had its fair share of bullshit. All written by me. Dehehehhee.
100,000 views...close behind the 400,000+ views of the PvZ guide?
The book of bullshit is officially our most read guide (without counting the PvZ one).
Also, the amount of effort gone into editing the thread is inversely proportional to that gone into finding the most bullshit Protoss builds, if you catch my drift.
On May 11 2014 22:53 Teoita wrote: The book of bullshit is officially our most read guide (without counting the PvZ one).
Also, the amount of effort gone into editing the thread is inversely proportional to that gone into finding the most bullshit Protoss builds, if you catch my drift.
Just like the inverse relationship of holding this bullshit versus executing it, you mean? I kid, I kid.
Also, how did Huk's DT build that he used at LSC3 not sneak its way into this guide via an edit? I have been tearing my hair out at poorly executed DT builds for two weeks on ladder now.
Is there an example game for the PvT blink into storm build? When I try to play it, I just don't do any damage to the Terrans and they just counter and win..
On May 24 2014 21:28 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Is there an example game for the PvT blink into storm build? When I try to play it, I just don't do any damage to the Terrans and they just counter and win..
Like literally every PvT from January to March of this year. The best one off the top of my head is the HerO vs. Polt series from IEM Cologne. HOWEVER, since the mine buff (vs. shields), it's much harder to pull this style off. You HAVE to get a robo and play much more carefully otherwise biomine will just eat it alive.
It seems the kill-a-protoss BO is slightly off though. I have problem getting my 4th gate built in time for everything to line-up. Perhaps, I'm just missing something. Nonetheless, it's a great guide to have a little fun on the ladder. Thanks to TL and the writers. I would love to see the equivalent for the other races too !
On June 02 2014 04:18 MZekla wrote: Hey can we have a replay back of this bullshit pls :D. I'm loving it but i feel i don't do it right...
If it's the blink all in one its cause its not written properly
Never had a problem with it. It was taken directly from duckdeok vs. Innovation, I've used it extensive times, and I've never had trouble hitting with 12 stalkers at 8:30. In fact, it's pretty easy compared to a lot of other builds.
On June 04 2014 09:39 Universum wrote: It seems the kill-a-protoss BO is slightly off though. I have problem getting my 4th gate built in time for everything to line-up. Perhaps, I'm just missing something. Nonetheless, it's a great guide to have a little fun on the ladder. Thanks to TL and the writers. I would love to see the equivalent for the other races too !
The last gate should lag a little bit behind the others. It's not super clear, but your initial warpin is only 3 DTs with a fourth lagging behind. Never fear, you're doing it right!
On June 02 2014 04:18 MZekla wrote: Hey can we have a replay back of this bullshit pls :D. I'm loving it but i feel i don't do it right...
If it's the blink all in one its cause its not written properly
Never had a problem with it. It was taken directly from duckdeok vs. Innovation, I've used it extensive times, and I've never had trouble hitting with 12 stalkers at 8:30. In fact, it's pretty easy compared to a lot of other builds.
On June 04 2014 09:39 Universum wrote: It seems the kill-a-protoss BO is slightly off though. I have problem getting my 4th gate built in time for everything to line-up. Perhaps, I'm just missing something. Nonetheless, it's a great guide to have a little fun on the ladder. Thanks to TL and the writers. I would love to see the equivalent for the other races too !
The last gate should lag a little bit behind the others. It's not super clear, but your initial warpin is only 3 DTs with a fourth lagging behind. Never fear, you're doing it right!
Thanks ! That's what was happening and I couldn't figure out why. Thanks for clearing that up.
Also because we had already one thread from sc2john along with the PvZ guide (which is more or less still a thing for the ffe>allin section) to cover it.
On June 10 2014 20:30 Teoita wrote: Also because we had already one thread from sc2john along with the PvZ guide (which is more or less still a thing for the ffe>allin section) to cover it.
I'm pretty sure we actually have three additional Soultrain guides out there (as I discovered when I was editing the Protoss Help Me Thread OP). I think, at this point, Soultrain is just a formality than an actual strategy. I mean, what's a ZvP without some kind of immortal all-in?
We'll in that case, what are the chances of getting great books of Zerg and Terran bullshit? Would love to see threads like this one for each race... Even if Protoss is the most bullshit friendly race
Isn't there a 4 Oracle timing bullshit TvP? To bust the front with getway units and around 4 Oracles to melt marines? I remember MC did this a few times, but I don't know if it fell out of style.
Also, let's not forget, the 1 oracle into proxy Tempest push on Terran front TvP. I've had this done to me a few times on GM ladder and I've seen ForGG lose to it on his stream before.
Early mass zealot pressure/Sangate is countered by banelings. Roaches and some sim city and queens can do it, but the fight lasts too long so you can end up losing a lot of stuff. Banelings quickly nuke a line of zealots. Sling are necessary to bait force fields and block him from running from banes.
Plase don't post wrong advice like it's fact. Zealot pressure doesnt use forcefields, and trading banelings vs zealots is cost efficient for the Protoss because banes are really fucking expensive early game.
Protoss pressure doesn't have a bo order hard counter per se, you just need to scout it, make enough shit to defend and not missread the moment when the protoss backs out of his pressure and transitioning (you risk either making too few units and dieing if he commits, or overmaking them and being behind in econ).
On June 14 2014 22:35 Teoita wrote: Plase don't post wrong advice like it's fact. Zealot pressure doesnt use forcefields, and trading banelings vs zealots is cost efficient for the Protoss because banes are really fucking expensive early game.
Protoss pressure doesn't have a bo order hard counter per se, you just need to scout it, make enough shit to defend and not missread the moment when the protoss backs out of his pressure and transitioning (you risk either making too few units and dieing if he commits, or overmaking them and being behind in econ).
Seconded.
The best way to defend this is just to have ~30 lings (even slow lings) out around 5:30-6:00 to prevent the pylon from going down. Of course, you can also go into a few roaches if you didn't open zergling speed. Banelings are a bad bad bad idea for defending zealots, as Protoss only needs to do minor splits to make banelings incredibly cost inefficient.
On June 14 2014 22:35 Teoita wrote: Plase don't post wrong advice like it's fact. Zealot pressure doesnt use forcefields, and trading banelings vs zealots is cost efficient for the Protoss because banes are really fucking expensive early game.
Protoss pressure doesn't have a bo order hard counter per se, you just need to scout it, make enough shit to defend and not missread the moment when the protoss backs out of his pressure and transitioning (you risk either making too few units and dieing if he commits, or overmaking them and being behind in econ).
Seconded.
The best way to defend this is just to have ~30 lings (even slow lings) out around 5:30-6:00 to prevent the pylon from going down. Of course, you can also go into a few roaches if you didn't open zergling speed. Banelings are a bad bad bad idea for defending zealots, as Protoss only needs to do minor splits to make banelings incredibly cost inefficient.
If you have 30 lings that fast you're miles behind anyways,
On June 14 2014 06:36 mooseman1710 wrote: Would TRUE's mass queen opening hold the sangate??
You don't simply 'hold' a SANGATE.
You hold the sangate with 4-6 roaches off 2 base with a few lings. You should be fully saturated already on 2 base and then you take your third while pushing the zealots away. Mass drone -> hydra.
I think you can also hold it with 3 hatch before pool gas, but im not sure the exact response. You might be able to take the econ hit since you have 3 hatch
I'm 18 - 6 in PvP with the 10Gate/3Gate (Top 8 Diamond). Its really nice because indirectly it also helps hold any proxy gates shenanigans with such an early gate. Thank you again writers !
EDIT: I would like some input from Masters players on this. Do this build actually work at high level ?
The only thing that would make this better would be VOD's for each of the builds. Perhaps someone can provide replays or VODS that demonstrate these glorious builds being used?
On June 17 2014 08:35 Universum wrote: I'm 18 - 6 in PvP with the 10Gate/3Gate (Top 8 Diamond). Its really nice because indirectly it also helps hold any proxy gates shenanigans with such an early gate. Thank you again writers !
EDIT: I would like some input from Masters players on this. Do this build actually work at high level ?
works in higher level, but not as successful. There is also a luck factor on 4 player map. If opponent goes sentry expand and scouts u last, then warpgate is almost complete and then he's dead. Also not as good against against oracles
On June 14 2014 06:36 mooseman1710 wrote: Would TRUE's mass queen opening hold the sangate??
You don't simply 'hold' a SANGATE.
You hold the sangate with 4-6 roaches off 2 base with a few lings. You should be fully saturated already on 2 base and then you take your third while pushing the zealots away. Mass drone -> hydra.
I think you can also hold it with 3 hatch before pool gas, but im not sure the exact response. You might be able to take the econ hit since you have 3 hatch
I wonder how u get 2 base saturation at 6:15 with roach warren completed by 5:30. Plz replay :O
On June 14 2014 06:36 mooseman1710 wrote: Would TRUE's mass queen opening hold the sangate??
You don't simply 'hold' a SANGATE.
You hold the sangate with 4-6 roaches off 2 base with a few lings. You should be fully saturated already on 2 base and then you take your third while pushing the zealots away. Mass drone -> hydra.
I think you can also hold it with 3 hatch before pool gas, but im not sure the exact response. You might be able to take the econ hit since you have 3 hatch
First of all, I think you're missing the point. You don't simply "hold" a SANGATE.
Second, I think you're in the wrong thread if you're looking to argue valid responses and actual strategy content. This guide is about BULLSHIT.
On June 17 2014 08:35 Universum wrote: I'm 18 - 6 in PvP with the 10Gate/3Gate (Top 8 Diamond). Its really nice because indirectly it also helps hold any proxy gates shenanigans with such an early gate. Thank you again writers !
EDIT: I would like some input from Masters players on this. Do this build actually work at high level ?
works in higher level, but not as successful. There is also a luck factor on 4 player map. If opponent goes sentry expand and scouts u last, then warpgate is almost complete and then he's dead. Also not as good against against oracles
On June 14 2014 06:36 mooseman1710 wrote: Would TRUE's mass queen opening hold the sangate??
You don't simply 'hold' a SANGATE.
You hold the sangate with 4-6 roaches off 2 base with a few lings. You should be fully saturated already on 2 base and then you take your third while pushing the zealots away. Mass drone -> hydra.
I think you can also hold it with 3 hatch before pool gas, but im not sure the exact response. You might be able to take the econ hit since you have 3 hatch
I wonder how u get 2 base saturation at 6:15 with roach warren completed by 5:30. Plz replay :O
Well, it's like ~40 drones, right? In his scenario, it sounds like he's taking the third after double queens and he just delays it for faster 2-base saturation and an emergency roach warren...in which case Protoss doesn't even need to warp in zealots to do the damage it needed to do Teehehehehe. I think in triple hatch scenarios, you cut drones around 35 and get as many queens/roaches out as you can in a short period of time.
ACTUALLY, if Zerg hasn't thrown down a 3rd base by 4:00, you usually just don't do zealot pressure...you can just tech up instead and feign pressure.
On June 17 2014 08:35 Universum wrote: I'm 18 - 6 in PvP with the 10Gate/3Gate (Top 8 Diamond). Its really nice because indirectly it also helps hold any proxy gates shenanigans with such an early gate. Thank you again writers !
EDIT: I would like some input from Masters players on this. Do this build actually work at high level ?
I'm one of the authors and I'm Masters as well (I wrote the One gate proxy stalker rush and the blink PvZ build parts), and yes, they actually work better, IMO, at a very high level, because of the way gameplay trends work among pros. At the high level on ladder but not quite top level (masters to middle grandmaster), players tend to do safer builds or extreme cheeses, so you may have less success. That said, I did the 2 base blink PvZ build for a month and half exclusively and had a near 90% winrate with it, so for basically all of these builds, if you execute well, expect a decent winrate.
On June 14 2014 22:35 Teoita wrote: Plase don't post wrong advice like it's fact. Zealot pressure doesnt use forcefields, and trading banelings vs zealots is cost efficient for the Protoss because banes are really fucking expensive early game.
Protoss pressure doesn't have a bo order hard counter per se, you just need to scout it, make enough shit to defend and not missread the moment when the protoss backs out of his pressure and transitioning (you risk either making too few units and dieing if he commits, or overmaking them and being behind in econ).
The zealot pressure I've encountered around the same timing has had force fields. Why wouldn't it, when forcefields can pull lings or roaches close to your zealot army to die on a wall, or limit surface area of lings so they are completely ineffective?
bling are Attack By Fire. If you make more than 3 or 4 you're doing it wrong, and if they split their zealots to avoid it the bling have done their job to help your lings get surface area on isolated zealots now. Bling also do a lot of damage instantly, so even if they only hit 1 bling per 2 zealots, you're still getting your money's worth. It's cheaper than mass roach.
On June 14 2014 22:35 Teoita wrote: Plase don't post wrong advice like it's fact. Zealot pressure doesnt use forcefields, and trading banelings vs zealots is cost efficient for the Protoss because banes are really fucking expensive early game.
Protoss pressure doesn't have a bo order hard counter per se, you just need to scout it, make enough shit to defend and not missread the moment when the protoss backs out of his pressure and transitioning (you risk either making too few units and dieing if he commits, or overmaking them and being behind in econ).
The zealot pressure I've encountered around the same timing has had force fields. Why wouldn't it, when forcefields can pull lings or roaches close to your zealot army to die on a wall, or limit surface area of lings so they are completely ineffective?
bling are Attack By Fire. If you make more than 3 or 4 you're doing it wrong, and if they split their zealots to avoid it the bling have done their job to help your lings get surface area on isolated zealots now. Bling also do a lot of damage instantly, so even if they only hit 1 bling per 2 zealots, you're still getting your money's worth. It's cheaper than mass roach.
This is wrong.
The Sangate 4-gate has only one gas and can't afford more than 1-2 sentries. In any case, it's very uncommon to see 3-4 gate pressure with anything other than zealots because it's typically used to put pressure on the Zerg while simultaneously teching.
In terms of baneling vs. roach, roaches are actually much better at defending these sorts of pressure because you can retain them and use them to pressure later. In addition, banelings are horribly inefficient at dealing with zealots as opposed to roaches, which can just kite zealots with little to no losses.
No warpgate timing since roughly 2011 has had forcefields with it, for the most part (yes yes, i know about Nony's build).
You don't use sentries because they are very expensive and fragile, so you might do considreble damage but lose them and end up behind anyway. Additionally, they are very gas intensive, which delays your tech more than a pure zealot attack. Obviously there are exceptions, but they aren't relevant to the context of this guide and the san gate in particular.
On June 17 2014 08:35 Universum wrote: I'm 18 - 6 in PvP with the 10Gate/3Gate (Top 8 Diamond). Its really nice because indirectly it also helps hold any proxy gates shenanigans with such an early gate. Thank you again writers !
EDIT: I would like some input from Masters players on this. Do this build actually work at high level ?
I'm one of the authors and I'm Masters as well (I wrote the One gate proxy stalker rush and the blink PvZ build parts), and yes, they actually work better, IMO, at a very high level, because of the way gameplay trends work among pros. At the high level on ladder but not quite top level (masters to middle grandmaster), players tend to do safer builds or extreme cheeses, so you may have less success. That said, I did the 2 base blink PvZ build for a month and half exclusively and had a near 90% winrate with it, so for basically all of these builds, if you execute well, expect a decent winrate.
The Two-Base fast Blink All-in you mean ? If yes, I'd like a bit more of your input please. As I understand it, if I suppose there is a third or I scout it this build is at max power, but what if the zerg stays on two bases wether it's because they managed a scout or suspect some bullshit like this build ? Do I just simply throw down a robo, cut the gateway number and try to take a third eventually? Do you have any recent replays ?
On June 17 2014 08:35 Universum wrote: I'm 18 - 6 in PvP with the 10Gate/3Gate (Top 8 Diamond). Its really nice because indirectly it also helps hold any proxy gates shenanigans with such an early gate. Thank you again writers !
EDIT: I would like some input from Masters players on this. Do this build actually work at high level ?
I'm one of the authors and I'm Masters as well (I wrote the One gate proxy stalker rush and the blink PvZ build parts), and yes, they actually work better, IMO, at a very high level, because of the way gameplay trends work among pros. At the high level on ladder but not quite top level (masters to middle grandmaster), players tend to do safer builds or extreme cheeses, so you may have less success. That said, I did the 2 base blink PvZ build for a month and half exclusively and had a near 90% winrate with it, so for basically all of these builds, if you execute well, expect a decent winrate.
The Two-Base fast Blink All-in you mean ? If yes, I'd like a bit more of your input please. As I understand it, if I suppose there is a third or I scout it this build is at max power, but what if the zerg stays on two bases wether it's because they managed a scout or suspect some bullshit like this build ? Do I just simply throw down a robo, cut the gateway number and try to take a third eventually? Do you have any recent replays ?
Thank you !
EDIT: Corrected spelling mistake
If they stay on two bases, you're actually ahead because of how greedy most of the opening is. Their larva count will be smaller. The most dangerous things to this build is if they scout it and cut drones early for a lot of units, or they all-in you quite early. It's a very unsafe opener against early zerg aggression, but it's rare that zergs actually commit to early aggression against a one gate expand of any kind. If he's still on two bases and you never scout a third, I would abandon the all-in, tech up and do a normal 2 base build (either with stargate or robo) and take a third after he takes a third. Watch for 2 base spire or 2 base swarmhost/nydus, and just play normal.
I don't have a recent replay as I haven't been doing this build for a quite a while and I usually only save replays of when I lose, and usually not for long.
On June 17 2014 08:58 Xinzoe wrote: I wonder how u get 2 base saturation at 6:15 with roach warren completed by 5:30. Plz replay :O
3 on gas, 32 on minerals and 2 queens mans you have 39 supply by 6:15. It sure seems very possible.
Just tested in sp: 15 hatchery 16 pool 16 gas 2 sets of lings 2 queens I reach 32 workers on minerals and 3 on gas by the time HuSang told us. Obviously I took a 5:30 RW. You just have to inject and make drones. I also took ling speed obviously.
ACTUALLY, if Zerg hasn't thrown down a 3rd base by 4:00, you usually just don't do zealot pressure...you can just tech up instead and feign pressure.
That sounds like making a reasonable transition based off scouting information. That's real strategy based on good gameplay. I on the other hand, after seeing no third base, cut probes and continue to warp in zealots ad naseum and pray my opponent is bad at Starcraft.(He will be) That, my friend, is BULLSHIT.
On June 17 2014 08:58 Xinzoe wrote: I wonder how u get 2 base saturation at 6:15 with roach warren completed by 5:30. Plz replay :O
3 on gas, 32 on minerals and 2 queens mans you have 39 supply by 6:15. It sure seems very possible.
Just tested in sp: 15 hatchery 16 pool 16 gas 2 sets of lings 2 queens I reach 32 workers on minerals and 3 on gas by the time HuSang told us. Obviously I took a 5:30 RW. You just have to inject and make drones. I also took ling speed obviously.
including third hatch? also third queen for creep. i know its possible but not sure with third base
On June 26 2014 17:00 klup wrote: Can someone add to the book the allin scarlett did to DRG on Frost please. I want to push that bullshit everyday on ladder!
He closed it cause he didn't read what I wrote properly + was too lazy to check the builds listed in the great book of protoss bs. I messaged him and he ignored me. Watcha gonna do ;p
Post a build order tons of people want to know about on the 23rd page of a guide so that no one can read it. Brilliant. Instead lets close the thread because there are so many top quality posts in the strategy section. /sarcasm
My thread may not have been all decorated up but what it did have was a top quality build order, something which this thread lacks quite a bit. Is there even a single build thats correct in here? As long as it looks good though!
On July 04 2014 02:20 -HuShang- wrote: Post a build order tons of people want to know about on the 23rd page of a guide so that no one can read it. Brilliant. Instead lets close the thread because there are so many top quality posts in the strategy section. /sarcasm
My thread may not have been all decorated up but what it did have was a top quality build order, something which this thread lacks quite a bit. Is there even a single build thats correct in here? As long as it looks good though!
This isn't like a blue poster beat-up party or anything, but:
1) This guide was released as a joke. But with HTML. And a lot of work and research anyway. A build order with no explanation is fairly useless.
2) You did not tag your thread as anything, and it definitely would not have fit the description of a "guide" anyhow (which you pretty much admitted).
Note2: I didn't follow scarletts build but this is the fastest I could make it.
3) Do not, for the love of god, continue on with this dumb "these builds aren't right" rhetoric. The 2-base blink build was taken directly from my notes which have received thousands of views. No one, myself included, has ever had any difficulty getting 12 blink stalkers at 8:30 with that build until you. Protoss has several different gas timings which all work slightly differently but end up with the same amount of gas, and the one included in this guide is the way duckdeok did it (and won) against Innovation and Maru. Again, in the game, duckdeok hit 12 stalkers at 8:30 with no problems. At this point, you're just annoying. Please stop.
List of everything wrong with the blink all in shown in the guide(because apparently this is necessary instead of just rewatching the vod and then changing it.) Believe me I've asked many many many times in this thread
http://imgur.com/n6NaZuj how my replay compares to duckdeoks gas at 7:15 mine=338 his=316 only 22 difference.
So theres pretty much irrefutable evidence that the build posted here is wrong. There's really no reason for you not to change it at this point. If you continue to argue with me you're basically just affirming that you care less about the quality of the guide and more about how fancy it looks.
On July 04 2014 04:38 SC2John wrote: 2) You did not tag your thread as anything, and it definitely would not have fit the description of a "guide" anyhow (which you pretty much admitted).
Note2: I didn't follow scarletts build but this is the fastest I could make it.
.
Did you try my build and then look at the vods? When I've done it on ladder it hits about 15 seconds faster than scarlett. This doesn't even deserve a point in your argument. It's screaming "Hey, HuShang made this really crisp build to help the community! BUT since it MIGHT not be the exact timings scarlett used who doesnt even play protoss it must be terrible." except its not, if you actually bothered to try it.
I guess I'm really just disappointed in some of the blue posters because when I first joined tl this was the very epitome of game knowledge. TL SC2 Strategy is supposed to be a collaboration of people sharing knowledge, helping each other etc... When people get on Teamliquid and see a guide they don't question its integrity(and they shouldn't). Why? Because almost every good player who speaks English posts here. If there's a problem people will notice and fix it. However, if you're simply going to ignore people, people who are only trying to help make the guide better then there's a problem. A problem with the integrity of all TL guides. Everytime I see a new guide do I have to go check the vods myself and make sure they copied them properly?
The funny thing is that I didn't go through every bo here looking for mistakes like you may think. I actually assumed it was correct and tried to practice it in a custom but knew something was wrong and went to verify it. No problem, maybe you guys just forgot to add x2 to gas. If you check earlier in the thread I even assumed it was just this, forgetting to add a small line. I didn't even check whether you put the wrong building timings etc... See what I mean about guide integrity? I had no doubt in my mind that you copied the build perfectly! That's the real reason I continue to post on the topic. I don't have any problems with the build, I fixed it myself and it's in my notes. My students don't have a problem because they use my notes. Although anyone who reads your guide in diamond/low masters is going to think that they are doing something wrong when it might in fact be that they're just following a build that isn't even correct.
So I guess that's it. Like I said earlier, this is pretty irrefutable evidence so I don't think you will argue but then again since I posted the same replay of me doing it earlier in this thread maybe you will....
On July 04 2014 07:53 -HuShang- wrote: List of everything wrong with the blink all in shown in the guide(because apparently this is necessary instead of just rewatching the vod and then changing it.) Believe me I've asked many many many times in this thread
http://imgur.com/n6NaZuj how my replay compares to duckdeoks gas at 7:15 mine=338 his=316 only 22 difference.
So theres pretty much irrefutable evidence that the build posted here is wrong. There's really no reason for you not to change it at this point. If you continue to argue with me you're basically just affirming that you care less about the quality of the guide and more about how fancy it looks.
On July 04 2014 04:38 SC2John wrote: 2) You did not tag your thread as anything, and it definitely would not have fit the description of a "guide" anyhow (which you pretty much admitted).
Note2: I didn't follow scarletts build but this is the fastest I could make it.
.
Did you try my build and then look at the vods? When I've done it on ladder it hits about 15 seconds faster than scarlett. This doesn't even deserve a point in your argument. It's screaming "Hey, HuShang made this really crisp build to help the community! BUT since it MIGHT not be the exact timings scarlett used who doesnt even play protoss it must be terrible." except its not, if you actually bothered to try it.
I guess I'm really just disappointed in some of the blue posters because when I first joined tl this was the very epitome of game knowledge. TL SC2 Strategy is supposed to be a collaboration of people sharing knowledge, helping each other etc... When people get on Teamliquid and see a guide they don't question its integrity(and they shouldn't). Why? Because almost every good player who speaks English posts here. If there's a problem people will notice and fix it. However, if you're simply going to ignore people, people who are only trying to help make the guide better then there's a problem. A problem with the integrity of all TL guides. Everytime I see a new guide do I have to go check the vods myself and make sure they copied them properly?
The funny thing is that I didn't go through every bo here looking for mistakes like you may think. I actually assumed it was correct and tried to practice it in a custom but knew something was wrong and went to verify it. No problem, maybe you guys just forgot to add x2 to gas. If you check earlier in the thread I even assumed it was just this, forgetting to add a small line. I didn't even check whether you put the wrong building timings etc... See what I mean about guide integrity? I had no doubt in my mind that you copied the build perfectly! That's the real reason I continue to post on the topic. I don't have any problems with the build, I fixed it myself and it's in my notes. My students don't have a problem because they use my notes. Although anyone who reads your guide in diamond/low masters is going to think that they are doing something wrong when it might in fact be that they're just following a build that isn't even correct.
So I guess that's it. Like I said earlier, this is pretty irrefutable evidence so I don't think you will argue but then again since I posted the same replay of me doing it earlier in this thread maybe you will....
So I tested the build...AGAIN. Just for you. Here is what I found:
Still have no problem hitting 12 stalkers @8:30. 36 workers, 6 gates. I have no idea why you can't seem to do that.
14/17 is essentially equivalent to 15/15 in gas, especially if you don't scout. Looking back at the VoDs and based on my own experience testing this, it would probably do better with 2 on gas until cyber core because you really don't need that much gas early on. I'll own to that. Again, though, it's not like the build DOESNT WORK if you have three in each gas, it just might flow a little more smoothly; I think, when I played Protoss like 5 months ago, this is what I did + Show Spoiler +
Actually, in hindsight, it was probably 2 on each gas until nexus. This is what I commonly did when I played Protoss for every build, and it's possible that my brain just filled in the details. By the time this guide was released and you asked me the gas timings, it had been quite a while since I had actively played Protoss, so I apologize if I gave you incorrect information
. I realized I also forgot a couple of pylons in there (assuming players would remember to build pylons on their own), which might end up being very important to someone trying to read through the build.
The build I wrote was an amalgam build that averaged the two games together (BTW, I think it was supposed to be G3 vs. Maru, and I accidentally wrote G2 in the thread). That is, some elements came from the Maru game and some came from the Innovation game. I did this because not all the scouting was exactly the same and there were some delays in one game but not in the other (Maru ebay blocks him); overall, the purpose was to create one build that would be the most correct.
In the end, though, I'm not sure it warrants saying the build is "wrong", since, like I said, I can still hit the benchmarks with no problem and literally no one until you has ever had a problem with the way it works. Had you earlier said, "Hey, I think that build is not fully optimized, but I found a better way to do it!", we wouldn't have a problem. But the fact that pop in here every time someone has a question and make some snide remark about the quality of the guide is what gives you a character flaw.
Thanks a lot for these guides; been away from SC2 for quite a while. Protoss players community are really awesome here at team liquid. I still remember PvZ The Guide. Probably protoss are doing better than other races in ladder simply because of you guys so keep up the work.
i just tried a build. 17 stalkers by 8:25 + 38 probes. i am the new duckdeok and will win wcs. hehe but seriously though that duckdeok build needs some work john. 14/17 distorts the build by too much. 5 stalkers make a big difference actually.
if u really care.... 9 Pylon 13 Gate 15 Gas 15 Pylon 18 Core 20 Zealot (Cancel if no ebay) 21 Nexus (3:30 with almost perfect probe stack) 23 MSC 23 Gas 24 Pylon 26 Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker (No gaps) 26 Warpgate (4:20) (warpgate completes the same time 4th stalker completes!!) 5:00 Twilight 5:55-ish Blink 2x Chronoboost (8:30-ish completed) 6:00-ish 2x Gateway (Reason: lines up with warpgate) 6:30-ish 2x Gateway (Reason: lines up with 2nd warpin round) 7:00 Gas at natural (Reason: To fit last 2-3 stalkers in)
Things to remember: Make your 15 supply Pylon at a place where in-base proxies are most likely. Be active with your first stalkers because scouting is minimal. Confirm that Terran expanded with first stalker. Pylons when necessary Chronoboost gateway after each warpin when possible for maximum Protoss After 17th stalker warpin u should have 20-ish minerals + 0 gas, Blink should finish at same time. In a real ladder game the timings are distorted by 5-10 seconds because u have to run around your probes to dodge reapers and of course there's the ebay/SCV block............
but the bright side 36 probes allow for semi-strong transition 5 EXTRA STALKERS COMPARED TO WCS EU CHAMPIONS BUILD!!!! 17 stalkers can 2 shot bunkers!!!!!! is this the most optimized build ever? xD
On July 05 2014 02:53 Xinzoe wrote: i just tried a build. 17 stalkers by 8:25 + 38 probes. i am the new duckdeok and will win wcs. hehe but seriously though that duckdeok build needs some work john. 14/17 distorts the build by too much. 5 stalkers make a big difference actually.
if u really care.... 9 Pylon 13 Gate 15 Gas 15 Pylon 18 Core 20 Zealot (cancel if no ebay) 21 Nexus (3:30 with almost perfect probe stack) 23 Mothership Core 23 Gas 24 Pylon 26 Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker -> Stalker 26 Warpgate (4:20) (7:00 completed) 5:00 Twilight 5:55-ish Blink 3x Chronoboost (8:10-ish completed) 6:05-ish 2x Gateway 6:30-ish 2x Gateway 7:00Gas at natural (3 probe when done)
Pylons when neccessary chronoboost gateway after each warpin After 17th stalker warpin u should have 20ish minerals + 0 gas, blink should finish at same time
in a real ladder game the timings are distorted by 5-10 seconds because u have to run around ur probes to dodge reapers and of course there's the ebay/SCV block................
but the bright side 36 probes allow for semi-strong transition 5 EXTRA STALKERS COMPARED TO WCS EU CHAMPIONS BUILD!!!! 17 stalkers can 2 shot bunkers!!!!!! is this the most optimized build ever? xD
I appreciate the input. As soon as I figure out how to edit older posts, I'm going to update the old SC2 Notes OP with an updated version of the build. I think a lot of the inaccuracies in the original post have a lot to do with my mind auto-piloting and expecting players to figure things out on their own, but I realize that the slight differences might confuse some people now. In the future, I'll work at making the build orders clear and concise. This is honestly the first time I've ever heard of someone having a problem, so I was a little taken aback.
(Either way, though, I totally nail this benchmark (12 stalkers by 8:30) even with a non-optimized version of the build WHAT).
I'm a little confused by your build because it only has 5 gateways (unless I'm reading it wrong), which is probably where you're grabbing an extra stalker more than what you should be getting.
with 6x gateways u have a gap between the time when warpins are available and when u ACTUALLY warpin. so i figured if i removed a gateway to take a gas at natural I can squeeze in 2-3 more stalkers. I think if I did a 4gate variant I can squeeze in one more?
ALSO with 6x gateways u will bank up minerals and have a extremely high min/gas ratio after 9 minute mark. With 3x gas and only 5 gateways u can have continuous stalker production without gaps in warpins. And finally the extra minerals are for extra pylons or probes or 3rd base obviously. And because u have less gateways, Terran player might read you wrong and not commit much to defend
Then again with more gateways you can more easily focus on microing your stuff and not macroing perfectly. It's kind of like in PvP, where you theoretically could just go 3gate blink, but make the 4th to spend money more easily.
First zealots hit @6:15 Hide probe after initial pylons
With all due respect I believe this Build order is wrong. I followed it thoroughly several times (30+ times) and can't ever be attacking @6:15. The best I ever got was @6:20. Essentially, I cut probes at 23 to be able to do WG, throw down a Nexus at expansion, build a MSC (Chronoboost) but to be able to add gates @4:45 (4:35 is impossible it seems) and then another one @5:00 + Pylon @ 25 supply I need to cut probes for 1:15 mins which doesn't seem right and clearly not optimal. If I make a sentry @27 supply then my last gate finishes 5 seconds later and the push is delayed.
I think the concern there is the wording. They will never "hit" at 6:15 but by 6:30 you will have them and they'll be well on their way to the hatchery. I think the earliest I've gotten it was 6:20 when they are all done but 6:15 is theoretically correct.
Adding the gates at 4:35 vs 4:45 is related to mining efficiencies so its based on probe stacking and the different map. Make sure you aren't losing minerals by not returning minerals before gas and not interrupting mining time from what probe you send to make the gas for example. Also don't forget it is 12 gate 15 gas because that does make a huge huge difference.
In the end its a stupid tight build and San does seem to get his zealots by 6:15ish. I'm not perfect so I can't hit it.
Also pros with good mechanics can do some insane shit. Back in the day Vines used to warp in his first round of 7 units at 7:20, which is just a ridicolous timing.
First zealots hit @6:15 Hide probe after initial pylons
With all due respect I believe this Build order is wrong. I followed it thoroughly several times (30+ times) and can't ever be attacking @6:15. The best I ever got was @6:20. Essentially, I cut probes at 23 to be able to do WG, throw down a Nexus at expansion, build a MSC (Chronoboost) but to be able to add gates @4:45 (4:35 is impossible it seems) and then another one @5:00 + Pylon @ 25 supply I need to cut probes for 1:15 mins which doesn't seem right and clearly not optimal. If I make a sentry @27 supply then my last gate finishes 5 seconds later and the push is delayed.
EDIT: HuShang does something similar without the sentry and 6:30 is more likely than 6:15 http://drop.sc/384300
I didnt watch your replay but here are things I saw from San vs Golden vod. He scouts with his 20th supply probe and warpins first 3 zealots at 6:07 in the Merry Go Round game.
I was able to pull off the timings slightly earlier. 2 Gateways 4:35, 4th Gateway 5:03, Warpins by 6:02. Attacks third hatchery by 6:15.
Edit: in the replay you posted, he scouted after gateway so build is already off by 10 seconds and like zeromus said king sejong's mineral patches on average are slightly farther than other maps such as overgrowth or merry go round
First zealots hit @6:15 Hide probe after initial pylons
With all due respect I believe this Build order is wrong. I followed it thoroughly several times (30+ times) and can't ever be attacking @6:15. The best I ever got was @6:20. Essentially, I cut probes at 23 to be able to do WG, throw down a Nexus at expansion, build a MSC (Chronoboost) but to be able to add gates @4:45 (4:35 is impossible it seems) and then another one @5:00 + Pylon @ 25 supply I need to cut probes for 1:15 mins which doesn't seem right and clearly not optimal. If I make a sentry @27 supply then my last gate finishes 5 seconds later and the push is delayed.
EDIT: HuShang does something similar without the sentry and 6:30 is more likely than 6:15 http://drop.sc/384300
I didnt watch your replay but here are things I saw from San vs Golden vod. He scouts with his 20th supply probe and warpins first 3 zealots at 6:07 in the Merry Go Round game.
I was able to pull off the timings slightly earlier. 2 Gateways 4:35, 4th Gateway 5:03, Warpins by 6:02. Attacks third hatchery by 6:15.
Edit: in the replay you posted, he scouted after gateway so build is already off by 10 seconds and like zeromus said king sejong's mineral patches on average are slightly farther than other maps such as overgrowth or merry go round
Once again thank you Xinzoe for your input, you helped me greatly in several threads already. I'm unable to watch replay right now because I'm at work (Zero chances my boss will install sc2 at work ), but you warpin 3 zealots the first time around ? So I assume your 4th gate is just finishing right ?
I didn't know the maps were different in terms of mineral distance. I thought blizzard kinda made Templates of mineral layouts that were just simply used by map makers. Seems I was wrong.I should've tried the build on several maps too to get a better picture. I was trying it on deadwing a lot because it's the map I have the worst PvZ record so far this season. This will definitely help me hit the timing better.
So I did watch the replay and I was able to solve my issues with proper mineral stacking mostly. Also it's map dependant. From one map to the other there a few seconds different it seems and it must be because of mineral placements I guess.
On August 05 2014 07:22 FinestHour wrote: hey can anyone make a great book of bs for terran and zerg next
No, zerg is the gentleman's race. They have no bullshit.
Except for swarmhosts, infestors, banelings and vipers.
Wow, I'm amazed you left the mutalisk out of that.
I think the majority of people would place mutas above even banelings and vipers.
Also, as far as making a great book of BS for Terran or Zerg, I just don't see how it's possible. Zerg and Terran have a few all-ins, but for the most part, they are not nearly as effective as the Protoss all-ins. All of the builds in this guide have a fairly high success rate even if they get scouted, just because Protoss. For the other races, doing a roach/baneling all-in or some kind of 1-1-1 all-in is really a coinflip that relies on your opponent playing a certain amount of greed and not having the correct units or units in position to deal with it.
By correlation, this means that all Protoss all-ins are purely skill-based compared to their Zerg and Terran counterparts. :p
We could probably find some decent and fun all-in builds for Zerg based on Nydus, drops, aggressive creeping, in-base hatches and all. Zerg definitely has some potential for bullshit IMHO. But I agree, Z bullshit is not nearly as potent as protoss's !
If we search well, we could even find a few BS builds for terrans: 8-8-8, proxy Thor... and that's about it ^^
On August 05 2014 07:22 FinestHour wrote: hey can anyone make a great book of bs for terran and zerg next
No, zerg is the gentleman's race. They have no bullshit.
Except for swarmhosts, infestors, banelings and vipers.
Wow, I'm amazed you left the mutalisk out of that.
I think the majority of people would place mutas above even banelings and vipers.
Also, as far as making a great book of BS for Terran or Zerg, I just don't see how it's possible. Zerg and Terran have a few all-ins, but for the most part, they are not nearly as effective as the Protoss all-ins. All of the builds in this guide have a fairly high success rate even if they get scouted, just because Protoss. For the other races, doing a roach/baneling all-in or some kind of 1-1-1 all-in is really a coinflip that relies on your opponent playing a certain amount of greed and not having the correct units or units in position to deal with it.
By correlation, this means that all Protoss all-ins are purely skill-based compared to their Zerg and Terran counterparts. :p
I left mutas off the list because they're so obscene they're too nuts to classify as mere bullshit.
What's up with early zerglings on 4 player maps recently ? In my last 30 games vs Z most of them opened fast zergling vs my in base (not at ramp) gateway for the san Gate Build xD. It's a little harder to pull off ...
On August 14 2014 13:02 Universum wrote: What's up with early zerglings on 4 player maps recently ? In my last 30 games vs Z most of them opened fast zergling vs my in base (not at ramp) gateway for the san Gate Build xD. It's a little harder to pull off ...
On August 14 2014 13:02 Universum wrote: What's up with early zerglings on 4 player maps recently ? In my last 30 games vs Z most of them opened fast zergling vs my in base (not at ramp) gateway for the san Gate Build xD. It's a little harder to pull off ...
I really dont know what you wanna accomplish by this post, it's boggling my mind, you seem to be so against protoss and then you still embrace the cheese since you obviously want everyone to play it..... Maybe you just wanted to be funny, but that failed bigtime also.. just my opinium.
On August 17 2014 08:51 MidnightZL wrote: I really dont know what you wanna accomplish by this post, it's boggling my mind, you seem to be so against protoss and then you still embrace the cheese since you obviously want everyone to play it..... Maybe you just wanted to be funny, but that failed bigtime also.. just my opinium.
Check the date it was written on. I agree it was not especially funny because most of the builds here actually work, but it's not to be taken too seriously.
On August 17 2014 08:51 MidnightZL wrote: I really dont know what you wanna accomplish by this post, it's boggling my mind, you seem to be so against protoss and then you still embrace the cheese since you obviously want everyone to play it..... Maybe you just wanted to be funny, but that failed bigtime also.. just my opinium.
excellent a guide on how to beat protoss BS.I been looking for this for a long time thanks so much.Something wrong with the nsame though its suppose to read a guide on how to beat protoss BS
Linked this page to both my friends who were firmly in mid silver and thanks to the great book of protoss BS, they're now mid gold and climbing. Dammit protoss.
the macro mechanics chrono inject and mule have been problems from day 1, and I think protoss as a race exemplifies it. There's only one or two semi-valid early aggro openings for T, and as players get better, even those holes close. Eventually the Protoss all ins early game will close by Terrans going for "safer" builds, but these builds will have to be nearly identical, setting up their midgame for a playstyle they didn't want, while also giving free reign for protoss to FE and get a huge economy early, and Terran has no response. Zerg is largely immune to this because the hatches and injects being able to overdrone after shutting down an all in, or the fact that Zerg has closed the holes in the timings means that Protoss no longer even try vs Zerg, which means there's no making early units for Zerg to begin with. When I look up Brood War builds, there's an entire Page full of 1 base aggressions, 1 base all ins, 2 base aggressions, "macro heavy" builds, and so on. Expanding is extremely rewarding in this game because of how fast the "macro" mechanics translate expansions into an accelerating growth of economy.
The largest issue here, being, of course, the ease as buying units, since the cost strucure of units is almost completely the same as it was in Brood War. Marines, zerglings, dragoons, stalkers, zealots, etc. It's a lot easier to buy those stalkers which have better pathing, extra abilities, and so on in SC2 than it is to buy goons in SC1. As long as the cost structure of units takes so much advantage from the "new and improved 'macro' mechanic" of SC2, things will be stale and the Protoss will have this "book of bullshit".
Protoss can FE, poke, and be immune to early game attack or retaliation from Terran, and Zerg to a lesser extent. The game doesn't feel dynamic and strategic, they make it feel like Checkers or Tic tac Toe.
Where's the spectator FUN in watching people do no attacks early game or watching the same zealot/stalker/MSC poke every single game where it doesn't really do anything if the other player beats them off, while both of them FE as "standard" and nothing happens for a few minutes because macro mechanics make grabbing bases far more important than trying to attack your opponent for the first 10 minutes?
User was warned for this post for explaining why the Protoss book of bullshit exists and being on topic and I just have a bug up my ass
On August 18 2014 07:32 Socup wrote: Zerg is largely immune to this because the hatches and injects being able to overdrone after shutting down an all in, or the fact that Zerg has closed the holes in the timings means that Protoss no longer even try vs Zerg, which means there's no making early units for Zerg to begin with.
What ?... May I know what level are you ? Cauz I can guarantee you, you still see them in GM meaning it's still viable.
On August 18 2014 07:32 Socup wrote: Zerg is largely immune to this because the hatches and injects being able to overdrone after shutting down an all in, or the fact that Zerg has closed the holes in the timings means that Protoss no longer even try vs Zerg, which means there's no making early units for Zerg to begin with.
What ?... May I know what level are you ? Cauz I can guarantee you, you still see them in GM meaning it's still viable.
When's the last time an early game protoss all in has killed a zerg in pro play?
On August 18 2014 20:30 Teoita wrote: Macro builds have tight timings to hit as well; the problem with them is that they are generally much more complex (so harder to execute correctly).
Funny stuff. Any macro build has within them designs to hold off early game aggression because there's no point in going macro if you just straight up die to some early game aggression or all in every time, and because of that, because of the exponential rewards of going macro, the person who goes macro and gets "more stuff" and holds off that all in has basically won right then and there. Unless the other player was Protoss of course.
On August 19 2014 07:21 Socup wrote: When's the last time an early game protoss all in has killed a zerg in pro play?
yesterday when I was watching the redbull/iem qualifier replays ^^
Snute also died to a weird 2-2-2 from Patience. However, that can be granted to some extent to Snute's decision to base trade, which may or may not have been optimal.
Is it just me or the Tasteless build vs terran never works at all? Every time my oracle comes in they either have a widow mine in mineral line already that one shots the oracle or a missle turret and plenty of marines. From there they just make mines/marine/viking/turret/bunker and hold the all in easily
Yeah this particular proxy oracle isn't subtle at all. If you could find a way to make 3 pylons in your main and still proxy the stargate at the same time (i guess by sending out the probe later and maybe cutting a couple of probes?) it would be a good deal harder to scout.
On August 23 2014 20:26 Teoita wrote: Yeah this particular proxy oracle isn't subtle at all. If you could find a way to make 3 pylons in your main and still proxy the stargate at the same time (i guess by sending out the probe later and maybe cutting a couple of probes?) it would be a good deal harder to scout.
Yes i guess you could cut 2 probes and overbuild 1 pylon, so that it would feel normal when terran scouts it. I am wondering thou, if just a normal 4-gate wouldnt be more effective build to use, simply because you could fake a 1-gate expand, and build 3 more gates when reaper leaves?
On August 23 2014 11:44 DuckloadBlackra wrote: Is it just me or the Tasteless build vs terran never works at all? Every time my oracle comes in they either have a widow mine in mineral line already that one shots the oracle or a missle turret and plenty of marines. From there they just make mines/marine/viking/turret/bunker and hold the all in easily
I'm hitting the timings correctly too.
I think I'll stick to my normal vs terran lol
This sounds silly but perhaps do a gas-first variant of the build. Most Terrans don't bother clicking on your gas geysers and not many people could tell what the timing of a regular core finishes. They might even ebay block you when they see only 1 gas, then its pretty much a win.
The whole point of the tasteless builds is that your opponent is too busy shitting hmself about something (proxy oracle, 4gate, 10gate) to realize you have more bullshit in store (4gate, dt). Straight up 4gating in pvt is the opposite of that, you just pick one dumb thing and do it. I mean, people are bad so it can work, but it's a completely different kind of bullshit build.
HAHA "Warning: The last post in this thread is over three months old. If you bump this, you'd better have a good reason!" (c)
I really have a good reason! I'm russian speaking streamer/content maker , but i can speak english too (not perfect though)| So i decided to try REINCARNATION of this awesome book with my LOTV-Edition cheeses.
You know, SC2 become such a pizza...we need to spread cheese on it!
I'm droping guides of cool cheese builds that work at least in highMaster - lowGM level, but some of them is taken and maybe reworked from 6k+ players. Hope you'll enjoy.
EPT
Liquipedia
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Teoita/Bullshit/MindBlown.jpg)
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Protoss can offer. If only someone would write The Great Mozzarella Guide to 
Zerg and Would you like some 
Terran with your cheese. All in the world would be right. Haha…
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MftNiLN.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mq2MoN7.jpg)
