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On April 13 2014 11:25 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 08:43 iamcaustic wrote:
I actually managed to have a 20+ minute game against a Masters Protoss by only making reapers -- on Habitation Station. I lost, because that's inevitable without a transition, but I was rather surprised at how long I could go for without any sort of strategy beyond "mass reapers". Yes, the Protoss made stargate units. The oracle got like 6+ SCVs but that was okay because I also killed a bunch of probes and I was ahead economically.
Suffice to say, I'm intrigued with the concept, if for no other reason than as an early game idea to get ahead economically before transitioning into something less crazy. Definitely not a standard build by any means, but it could be a cool little weapon to have in one's pocket. I am incredibly proud of you! you took the idea and applied it like a champ. No looking back, no compromises. i feel humbly honored by your faith, great sir. thanks!
I did it because I was fairly skeptical at its viability beyond a certain point, but the fact that you can go for so long (I didn't even have good upgrades) against current Masters Protoss players tells me that, if applied to something more refined than just massing them, there's some potential to be had.
From some of the other conversations in this thread, it seems like others are of the same opinion, and already have more refined builds against things like proxy Oracle and the such. Would love to get my hands on some replays.
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This build is viable...
I used a 3 reaper + mass rines +1weapon/stim(against toss) or combatshield(against zerg) timing during the WOL days. (Korea Mid masters - EU High master - CN GM). Its designed to do economic damage, wheter is worker kills or building units which gonna die to the mass rines timing. Everything to delay the tech and worker lead. Its just the "marines" does too much DPS to other units, yes even bloody roaches. Ive smashed a former Dutch Pro-GM-zerg and Jim at WCG China-Qualifers with this.
This is very smiliar to the bo I used in the old days, do everything to delay their tech and force units. Since zerg and protoss are using very efficient minerals/gas, Terran is using heavily on minerals and low on gas. This bo is optimizing the minerals/gas usage and workers at mining efficiency.
Yes this is very disrupting the "optimized" BO's of the opponent. Especially the protoss.
To even improve this build, I suggest build an e-bay to delay their expansion. This will divide the good players between the "robot" players. (Robot players copy meta and bo's).
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On April 12 2014 23:12 SatedSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2014 21:18 QuartzTheOG wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Pretty much this. I saw this mass reaper a lot actually last night on the latter. Caught me off guard the first time but after that was pretty easy to deal with. But if you have fun with the build that's all that counts. If someone could post a replay where they deal with fast Reapers properly then that would be appreciated. It doesn't necessarily have to transition into mass Reapers, it just has to be an example of how to deal with 3/5 early Reapers. It would be even better if the initial Barrack(s) are proxied. I really have problems with that type of opening, especially on Heavy Rain and other such maps.
Yes, I would love to see SC2John's 4 stalker 4 immortal push replays.
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On April 13 2014 02:10 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 00:35 xRiotZx wrote:On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop. Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving. So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game. I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me. I'll 1v1 you no problem. You can theory craft, but as mentioned, I've been GM with random, and out of the 9 MUs TvP was my second best, doing this as my only strat. And I tell race. And you'll know it's coming.
I have basically no experience playing protoss, but, with everything I know about terran I'm pretty confident I can hold this.
I play on AM server, my name is RiotZ and my tag is #260.
Aiur vs Integral
Held the reapers, followed up with a soft all in, won the game in 10 minutes. Excuse the 2 hr game time, I was afk in the obs.
http://drop.sc/378608
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On April 14 2014 00:18 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 02:10 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 13 2014 00:35 xRiotZx wrote:On April 12 2014 11:34 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 12 2014 04:05 SC2John wrote:On April 09 2014 13:55 U_G_L_Y wrote:On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable. Ruff does it at the top of GM so I guess it depends on your definition of viable. Additionally, there is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper; you float tons of minerals with (a more efficient version of this build, this one is not good) so you just delay your third a little and get turrets. I prefer 12 rax, gas 15 rax, 17 reaper, orbital, gas, depot make 2 reactors when first reaper finishes The goal is to get a planetary third, don't die to 1 base blink by doing something stupid. Ugh, I can't believe we're still on this. "There is no possible way the Protoss can hide a stargate from mass reaper" is the silliest ultimate statement. Either you're attacking with the reapers or scouting the map with them; you can't do both at the same time. And whatever happens, a turret does not a) stop an oracle from getting free SCV kills (I'm not talking about suiciding the oracle) or b) stop the oracle from picking off reapers (the oracle speed is FASTER). Quit pretending that mass reapers is somehow a viable, catch-all strategy that is perfectly viable for "standard play". Every strategy has some weakness. This one has a weakness to immortal/blink allins and proxy stargates. The double reactor play also dies pretty hard to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure, as has been pointed out. I'm done dealing with your theorycraft, I have legitimate experience beating this without any problem. Actually, double reactor is a very hard counter to zealot/stalker/MSC pressure as you completely overwhelm them and then can churn out 4 marines to kill the MSC. At that point, there's no MSC to use overcharge and it's actually one of the easier wins, imo. Oracle you can tell because if you're pressuring them, they have no expansion, and a single stalker, it's always proxy oracle. You don't need to scout for the proxy. You absolutely have to realize it and build the ebay PRIOR to your first CC though. I've lost to blink stalker a few times on one base, but don't find it overly strong - you just counter with your reapers. He's forced to leave his MSC at home, meaning he doesn't have hte vision, which is what makes blink stalkers so hard to stop. Okay, so you're semi-safe from oracles at the expense of about 300ish minerals, excluding the cost of the ebay, so more like 425, that gets you to a point where your scvs won't die on the line, but can still get killed while building.... And, you can't engage with your reapers, because reapers don't shoot up, and that 425 minerals you just blew on anti-air is in your base and it isn't moving. So let's figure you retreat, regroup, start pumping rines instead of reapers, you push out at 8-9ish maybe, his nat is already down, he's got a few ground units, but mainly msc with overcharge and 3-4 oracles (if he's smart), now the game is over, he'll just parade on your push, you'll save whatever you have left, and your inferior worker count/late nat lose you the game. I don't play toss but, I'd be glad to 1v1 anyone who wants to try this versus me. I'll 1v1 you no problem. You can theory craft, but as mentioned, I've been GM with random, and out of the 9 MUs TvP was my second best, doing this as my only strat. And I tell race. And you'll know it's coming. I have basically no experience playing protoss, but, with everything I know about terran I'm pretty confident I can hold this. I play on AM server, my name is RiotZ and my tag is #260. Aiur vs Integral Held the reapers, followed up with a soft all in, won the game in 10 minutes. Excuse the 2 hr game time, I was afk in the obs. http://drop.sc/378608
While I did lose relatively handedly, and the initial BO up to the two reactors WERE per the build (no mistakes from how I normally do it), I'd say there were quite a bit of things to make that rep a little off from how effective it could be.
1. Haven't done a TvP 1v1 in well over a month or so, or done this build in particular. Forgot my CC for a bit, forgot to get an orbital, forgot to build any other followup raxes, just floated a ton of minerals.
2. Never played the map, didn't realize when he moved out it wouldn't be in reaper vision.
3. Build is notably weaker on maps that have a natural ramp - which I pointed out prior to the game. Also weaker on maps where there's no real room to get into the main without going in blind.
I'd have asked for a Bo3 but I did feel I executed the original build quite handedly, it's the followup (lack of any natural orbital for ages, etc.) that I'd have likely lost anyways. It's lack of mechanics past that initial phase, but if you can imagine spending my minerals regularly throughout it, I would have been in a solid position despite losing the reapers.
tl:dr - I played poorly, didn't know the map, and am rusty, but think the initial bout before losing reapers was still OK - he played well, better, but plays more^^
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Italy12246 Posts
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Italy12246 Posts
I didnt say anything about what's viable at the pro level, my comment was about the average player's ladder builds. At that level, anything can work pretty much.
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If you were referring to me, I didn't say I play bad generally speaking (not saying that isn't true though). I'm saying that I played badly that game, and there was a lot due to not playing any TvPs in 1's for well over a month. The execution of the initial reapers were fine, but as soon as it was early-mid game I fell apart (ie. not making an orbital at my natural, not following up with any raxes, etc.).
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I'm really liking the 2 reactor style. Been reliably beating Masters Protoss players with it on all the maps I play save Habitation Station; combination of reapers not being as good on the map and me still lacking a lot of experience with the build. Suffice to say, I'm quite content with having more than one TvP style for Masters-level games, even if it is potentially hard countered by stalker/immortal as some people are suggesting (though I've beaten players trying to go for that composition).
Only been playing low-Masters though, so maybe it's just a matter of slightly better execution on the Protoss' part to deflect this style.
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I played, I think the guy was Masters? I don't remember. Anyway it was yesterday. I took a shot at executing this build on an extremely reaper friendly map, and the guy annihilated me with simcity of his buildings (preventing my from killing workers) and micro that wasn't totally asinine.
Once he had colossi, I was screwed, you simply can't afford vikings fast enough (because reapers are stupidly gas heavy) to deal with the colossi follow up.
http://drop.sc/378662
Mass reaper is much more suited for tvz, I have 10+ replays of me destroying players on the ladder with it.
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On April 15 2014 00:14 xRiotZx wrote:I played, I think the guy was Masters? I don't remember. Anyway it was yesterday. I took a shot at executing this build on an extremely reaper friendly map, and the guy annihilated me with simcity of his buildings (preventing my from killing workers) and micro that wasn't totally asinine. Once he had colossi, I was screwed, you simply can't afford vikings fast enough (because reapers are stupidly gas heavy) to deal with the colossi follow up. http://drop.sc/378662Mass reaper is much more suited for tvz, I have 10+ replays of me destroying players on the ladder with it.
i can't see the replay atm but you probably were just taking gases too slowly. You don't even need 16 scvs on minerals per base! you can just claim the gas immediately, even if you only have 10 scvs mining minerals per base. That should enable you to get vikings out quick enough. Also if you know its coming ( and you should defenitly have that info) you can always just build 2 starports and premake 2 reactors on your rax. Then you just have to delay for 2-3 production cycles instead of 4-6. You need some dynamic thinking about your ressource distribution.
In general, More gas nets you more units and faster tech, while more Minerals just means more Buildings. It can be rather tricky to balance it out just right. Anyways, if you see robo tech without a council, its no game breaker to skimp a bit on Reaper production to favor Vikings. If you scout a council on the otherhand, you need to be daringly delaying your starport and completely rely on the reapers until after 2-2 is started. So, if you see him being overly defensive, ie; you can't touch him at all and he hardcore turtles on 2 base, take some guys off gas, prepare vikings, sneak in some reactors, build more ccs, Raxes and just be greedy. Then when his colossus timing hits, you take all your spare scvs, cross your fingers and just hit him with a train.
@Tvz, maybe its worth a shot but i don't see how Mass reaper is supposed to deal with speedlings. Or even roaches. Perhaps you can score some easy early victories but mass mass reaper doesn't feel very promising in the matchup.simply because Zerg units are alot faster and deny your retreat.
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On April 15 2014 02:06 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2014 00:14 xRiotZx wrote:I played, I think the guy was Masters? I don't remember. Anyway it was yesterday. I took a shot at executing this build on an extremely reaper friendly map, and the guy annihilated me with simcity of his buildings (preventing my from killing workers) and micro that wasn't totally asinine. Once he had colossi, I was screwed, you simply can't afford vikings fast enough (because reapers are stupidly gas heavy) to deal with the colossi follow up. http://drop.sc/378662Mass reaper is much more suited for tvz, I have 10+ replays of me destroying players on the ladder with it. i can't see the replay atm but you probably were just taking gases too slowly. You don't even need 16 scvs on minerals per base! you can just claim the gas immediately, even if you only have 10 scvs mining minerals per base. That should enable you to get vikings out quick enough. Also if you know its coming ( and you should defenitly have that info) you can always just build 2 starports and premake 2 reactors on your rax. Then you just have to delay for 2-3 production cycles instead of 4-6. You need some dynamic thinking about your ressource distribution. In general, More gas nets you more units and faster tech, while more Minerals just means more Buildings. It can be rather tricky to balance it out just right. Anyways, if you see robo tech without a council, its no game breaker to skimp a bit on Reaper production to favor Vikings. If you scout a council on the otherhand, you need to be daringly delaying your starport and completely rely on the reapers until after 2-2 is started. So, if you see him being overly defensive, ie; you can't touch him at all and he hardcore turtles on 2 base, take some guys off gas, prepare vikings, sneak in some reactors, build more ccs, Raxes and just be greedy. Then when his colossus timing hits, you take all your spare scvs, cross your fingers and just hit him with a train. @Tvz, maybe its worth a shot but i don't see how Mass reaper is supposed to deal with speedlings. Or even roaches. Perhaps you can score some easy early victories but mass mass reaper doesn't feel very promising in the matchup.simply because Zerg units are alot faster and deny your retreat.
Well... I think TvP it's too wonky... As for TvZ? How can it deal with speedlings?
Reapers chew speedlings up, as long as they can't get a clean surround, i.e. not enough lings to surround, or cliffs that you can abuse nearby. Roaches? Reapers trade cost effectively with roaches, but I never even engage against roaches, I make 3 bunkers at home in front of my nat and if they come to my base, I fill those bunkers and hold, if they don't I just keep abusing speed, snipe 3rd, when roaches come down, hop up to his main snipe a queen, so some damage to his line and run away again. The only suitable counter is mutas, and if you know when to transition, literally the only time you'll need to transition out of reapers is against speed roaches or mutas, since reapers handily deal with everything else, including banes (being faster than banes, even with bane speed). Once you're ready to transition, you should have 3 orbitals, 6 rax, 2 with tech labs starting shields and stim at the same time, a factory going down (don't worry his tech is worse than yours at this point) and reactors on the rest of your barracks. In all the replays I have I went with an MMM transition, but I've been doing strictly marine/tank lately.
I have never beaten a masters player with this build however, I have beat masters players with macro expands with some success, so I think that speaks to its viability.
http://drop.sc/378725 Versus pool first
http://drop.sc/376244 Basic example
http://drop.sc/378726 One of my first games with it
http://drop.sc/378727 A guy holds it, my transition kills him easily
http://drop.sc/376245 Don't remember what happens in this game but heh another win
These are all of the replays I know of, I probably have more that I'd have to find. I used to have a 100% wlr with this build in TvZ, it's dropped to more like 60% for some reason, I'm not sure if my MMR just went up, or if I've been doing it wrong, so I entirely stopped doing this build against masters players.
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On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ...
well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position.
1.it will be too late switching to marines
2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me
3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway.
How would you face this situation?
I also simply die with one base blink stalker.
(with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done
game is pretty much over.)
and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too
after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever
even for diamond.
Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level.
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On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level.
1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble.
2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them.
3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time).
If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie.
I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs.
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On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs.
Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw.
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On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw.
Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build.
No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build.
Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build.
Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build.
Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either.
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On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either.
Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there.
Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
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On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
It is possible to have 6 reapers at 5:40 (in my games the 5th and 6th pop at around 5:30) without going for 8/8/8. Also oracles are barely faster than reapers so if you split them up once the toss activates its attack they can only kill 1-2 at max.
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On April 24 2014 09:57 xRiotZx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 11:46 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 22 2014 16:37 xRiotZx wrote:On April 19 2014 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:On April 16 2014 07:37 dreamdust wrote:On March 25 2014 11:52 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage. well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ... well,i actually be able to scout any proxy stargate,but the problem is,I can't really deny the oracle producthion with the second pylon or even three.when the first oracle pop out,I will be in very bad position. 1.it will be too late switching to marines 2.even with turrets oracle can Do damage to me 3.i will never kill the toss if i keep reaper production,even he only have one gateway. How would you face this situation? I also simply die with one base blink stalker. (with p keep in defend position and MSC defend,I can not hurt their economy or stalker count,once the blink is done game is pretty much over.) and the new ladder map is really not favor for reaper too after 30 game practice and training,the win rate is not very good,for master level in K/T sever even for diamond. Any way,its fun build i admit,but definitely not so fun for less 50%win rate in higher level. 1. With a turret and a few marines you are fine, but you must have a turret in time, without it you are indeed in a lot of trouble. 2. You can easily kill the toss if he has one gateway, your reapers simply engage the stalkers head on and destroy them. 3. Vs 1base blink it is extremely important to see if they are bringing MSC or not. They usually do - which means you just counter with reapers, wipe out all the probes (and warped in stalkers as they can only do 3 at a time). If they don't bring the MSC, you pull the reapers back to defend, which they are EXTREMELY helpful, as you defend the front you use the reapers to flank all the weakeneed stalkers that blink back. You are also able to contain the toss before they move out with the probe to get a proxy pylon for a whlie. I struggle the most where an oracle does sufficient dmg that we're about even, and THEN they transition to 1 base blink. You can't counter because MSC at home and they get vision to the high ground and can even utilize the oracle itself to either harass or pick off marines/repairing SCVs. Oracles kill reapers btw. Turrets also don't move btw. It takes 5 marines to kill an oracle btw. Yes, they do. It doesn't stop the build. No, they don't. It doesn't stop the build. Yes, it does. It doesn't stop the build. Silly to make comments that don't account for timings during a build. Am I saying that this reaper build counters oracles or anything like that? No, the situation is actually quite chaotic early game. But nothing you say somehow kills the build either. Oracle directly counters reaper, I was playing a game of 2v2 earlier, as random, I got protoss, went oracle, chased the guy's reapers around til I caught up to kill them, gg. Game was over right there. Also, account for timings? What timings can you exploit exactly? I can have an oracle out by 5:40ish if I rush it, by then you can only have 2 reapers max unless you went 888, which I wouldn't make a stargate against 888 anyway.
Are you trolling?
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EPT
