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I admit, i love to cheese. I love cheese in my fridge, and I love rubbing that smelly mass into peoples faces. And, likewise, i play TvP.
Getting bored with the standart MMM and having to deal with all the shitty allins Protosses on the ladder throw at me pissed me off like mad and thus I thought: you wanna cheese me chap? me cheese you first! Europe styLE.
so without further ado the bo:
10 depo
12rax ----> constant reaper production, the scv building this builds another one
12gas
15oc
16rax
(ebay before cc if stargate spotted)
cc ----> more ccs as money allows
3rd rax / ebay ----> more rax
expand as money allows, depots as needed
edit: I am getting the feeling that a lot of people seem to misunderstand the general idea of this "cheese" opening. I am not cheesing in terms trying to kill my opponent! (eg i open 2 rax because there is no way that an early cc could actually benefit me more then the second barracks. Just because reapers are building so damn slowly) I am looking to go into the macro game while maintaining an economic advantage, even if i don´t kill off any probes at all. I also don´t care as much about the viability of the opening but more so over how much FUN it is to play around with a huge reaper army in the midgame. Dodging storms, catching opponents out of position and having control over the game in general are where this strat is really juicy at. NOT the wanky opening.
and now some general ideas on why this is a good build, what it is weak against, how to play it out and what my goals are.
1. growing the reaper cloud while forcing and picking off stalkers.
very rarely will a toss allow me access to his probes. MSC and sim city prevent this.
2. stalkers are ridiculously expensive. Every time Toss builds a stalker and I get to trade it for 1 reaper (which happens quite frequently) i not only win 75 minerals, but i also force toss to rebuild the stalker count. This constantly eats away at his ability to build infrastructure eventually leading to a vast advantage in buildings!
3. Reapers regenerate back to full hp in about 30 seconds. This intervall can be used quite well to build structures back at home, while not missing damage potential. Also i won´t ever need to build Medivacs.
4. I need to be very careful about my gas spending. Minerals wont ever be a limiting factor, but gas is. 2 gysers allow for 5 rax reaper production. This means that i can support 5 rax per base, which i am always aiming for. Addons are not to be build, simply because the gas is better spent on just growing my reaper cloud. likewise, i need to be careful about when i can afford to get my upgrades. 1-1 = 4 reapers which is quite a lot in the early game. I prefer to get 1-1 on 1 ebay, and only go up to 2 ebays for my 2-2.
5. scouting needs to be done early on with the first 2 reapers. usually i will send my first reaper to scout the ENTIRE map, i dont want to be suprised by oracles, and scout his ENTIRE base with my first 2 reapers ( this guarrantees a scout. he won´t be able to pick off both)
6. my first little timing is when i hit 3 reapers. I can start picking off stalkers and zealots. commiting is a nono tho. its better to not lose a reaper then to trade at this point.
7. i want to pin protoss in his base. I cannot deny his natural, but i can force quite a lot of gateway units. Protoss will be hardpressed to get his tech out, be it colossi or blink or whatever, i will usually have my 3rd base up by the time his tech finishes up.
8. I need to respond to his Techchoices in the following way:
Stargate ---> oracle / fenix ---------> i have to abandon mass reaper for now and get some units that can shoot up. That means either stim + marines or some cute mine+ turret play. I can continue reaper production as soon as i have enough vikings to take care of his air threat
Robo ---> colossi i just get my starport after i started my 2-2. then its constant viking production. The reapers just keep doing what they do. i won´t be able to deny a 3rd once there is a second colossus out, regardless of howmany reapers i have.
Council ---> blink / archon / storm I just ignore this and make more reapers and win with sheer numbers and micro.
9. at any point in the game, i can decide to revert back into MMM, aslong as i get the stim.
ok thats about it. I have some replays that you could check out even if its just for the lulz. Please do not take this too seriously. Just have fun with a 150 supply reaper army
replay 1
replay 2
replay 3
Update
Vs 1 base 3 gate robo
closest game so far. Zeal MSC poke - exe + STG
oh and, if you are wondering why im not uploading any replays where i lost. that is not because i am an arrogant asshole ( which i of course am ) but more due to me not yet having lost a single game with this build.
enjoy!
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hmm, i feel like its a bad idea to invest into too many stalkers. In a real game, you wouldn´t have any sentries for guardianshield and forcefields to deter a followup push (see ATC S3 XMG vs MYI Jjakji vs lilbow). on the other hand, you need atleast 2 stalkers and a MSC since 1 can be picked off quite easily with 3 reapers.
the most trouble you can give a reapering player is probably by just building an intelligent simcity that accomplishes 3 things: 1. you want to be able deny any access to your mineral line. 2. you want to have a place where you can hide your tech from the reaper scout ( usually somewhere behind your mineral line). 3. you want to get 2 sentries relatively early as they allow for forcefields against the reapers and have utility in the midgame.
the most important thing against reapers though is to have a good eye on your mothership core. Just the threat of the time bubble is often enough to scare the reapers away!
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Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
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On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
i think the point is to win before ur opponent can develop a counter.
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On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
As written, you never get the unit count up.
What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes.
Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges.
I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much...
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On March 25 2014 07:47 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up. What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges. I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much...
i am curious about that aswell. But, what i would like to mention here, is that the reaper cloud is much denser then a stalker sentry ball. Its the same as with stimmed marines. You get to a point, where it starts to become troublesome for the protoss to get enough surface area to unleash his full dps, where as you can still fight with your entire army just because reapers are very small units. Another cool thing is that, at higher numbers but still pre colossus, you can have enough reapers to oneshot stalkers while toss has to focusfire aswell but is just way less efficient at it.
btw, check the replay there are games where i didnt even kill any probes at all!
as for guardianshield: stalkers have 1 armor. reapers deal 4 x 2 damage thus 3x2(per hp but still 4x2 on the shields) guardianshield cuts that to 2x2 for shields and 1x2 for hp. Sentries are prime targets and need to be sniped. Or an active guardianshield has to be avoided.
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On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production?
actually, i wont have any marine marauder production. but as soon as you leave your base, its a race and Terran will always win that.
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I have had some success in diamond league on heavy rain doing this sort of thing but with a slightly different build. I usually go gas first, then cut scvs production for a second rax on 14 supply. After you reactor both raxes you are pumping 4 reapers at a time. Usually I don't outright kill the protoss but you can pin them in their base while you double expand. Against 1 base all-ins its really strong since you can backstab the toss with your reapers as soon as he moves out and you can just mass bunker at home with marines and repair. And with mass reaper running around his base there is no way you can get blindsided by hidden tech.
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I hated playing against this. Now I just proxy oracles every game to avenge previous losses.
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On March 25 2014 08:00 alpenrahm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 07:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up. What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges. I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much... i am curious about that aswell. But, what i would like to mention here, is that the reaper cloud is much denser then a stalker sentry ball. Its the same as with stimmed marines. You get to a point, where it starts to become troublesome for the protoss to get enough surface area to unleash his full dps, where as you can still fight with your entire army just because reapers are very small units. Another cool thing is that, at higher numbers but still pre colossus, you can have enough reapers to oneshot stalkers while toss has to focusfire aswell but is just way less efficient at it. btw, check the replay there are games where i didnt even kill any probes at all! as for guardianshield: stalkers have 1 armor. reapers deal 4 x 2 damage thus 3x2(per hp but still 4x2 on the shields) guardianshield cuts that to 2x2 for shields and 1x2 for hp. Sentries are prime targets and need to be sniped. Or an active guardianshield has to be avoided.
What I mean, is that you can have more DPS/Area, but Toss doesn't ahve to give youi that area. You're jumping into the fight and Protoss picks where the fight happens.
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On March 25 2014 08:07 Clarty wrote:
I have had some success in diamond league on heavy rain doing this sort of thing but with a slightly different build. I usually go gas first, then cut scvs production for a second rax on 14 supply. After you reactor both raxes you are pumping 4 reapers at a time. Usually I don't outright kill the protoss but you can pin them in their base while you double expand. Against 1 base all-ins its really strong since you can backstab the toss with your reapers as soon as he moves out and you can just mass bunker at home with marines and repair. And with mass reaper running around his base there is no way you can get blindsided by hidden tech.
♥ good guy backstabber! now try mass reaper! you ll be suprised how well that actually works in diamond
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On March 25 2014 08:28 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2014 08:00 alpenrahm wrote:On March 25 2014 07:47 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 25 2014 06:48 Salient wrote:
Wouldn't it be a good counter for the Toss to transition into 3-4 gate blink all in upon scouting this since the Terran won't have many marines/marauders due to all the reaper production? As written, you never get the unit count up. What I'm curious about, how well does this do against micro. I think Protoss stacks better than mass Reaper, a Guardian shield kills 50%-66% of your DPS, and I think Protoss can sacrifice some probes. Remember, in your healing downtime, Protoss recharges. I think this strategy works the first time somebody faces it, the times after that, not so much... i am curious about that aswell. But, what i would like to mention here, is that the reaper cloud is much denser then a stalker sentry ball. Its the same as with stimmed marines. You get to a point, where it starts to become troublesome for the protoss to get enough surface area to unleash his full dps, where as you can still fight with your entire army just because reapers are very small units. Another cool thing is that, at higher numbers but still pre colossus, you can have enough reapers to oneshot stalkers while toss has to focusfire aswell but is just way less efficient at it. btw, check the replay there are games where i didnt even kill any probes at all! as for guardianshield: stalkers have 1 armor. reapers deal 4 x 2 damage thus 3x2(per hp but still 4x2 on the shields) guardianshield cuts that to 2x2 for shields and 1x2 for hp. Sentries are prime targets and need to be sniped. Or an active guardianshield has to be avoided. What I mean, is that you can have more DPS/Area, but Toss doesn't ahve to give youi that area. You're jumping into the fight and Protoss picks where the fight happens.
well, im not so sure about protoss picking where the engagements happen. they have to split their army between main and natu, it really isn´t so simple for them. And im not stupid either, i wont commit to fights where i am clearly outgunned.
from my experience, the game just slowly drags itself on with some small skirmishes happening but never a major fight.
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how do you not die if they send their mothership core to your base?
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The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage.
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On March 25 2014 11:00 Danglars wrote:
The incredibly common ideas of (1) Get a mothership core for defense and (2) Open Oracle before or after expanding present great problems that you have not addressed with discussion or good replays in your post.
The only other option would be to accept a hefty economic penalty by immediately switching to marines and hopefully having 6 before his oracle comes (let's say his foolishly loses the stalker). This opening is much inferior to expanding and then adding on rax in that situation. With chronos and strategic retreats of the stalker to mineral line (outranges, isn't easily bursted down with careful control), you aren't guaranteed high damage.
well, im confident that i would be able to scout a proxy stargate and deny its production! and as for replays, i just didn´t encounter oracle play yet ^^ but i assume he wont have a MSC and an oracle and an expansion and enough stalkers to deal with my 3 reapers so his losses should be pretty even to mine with propper micro. But this is all theory craft, i have no idea how it would actually play out... maybe i could somehow get turrets in time? maybe he just dies? maybe i just bo lose? who knows ...
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On March 25 2014 10:22 ajdodge16 wrote:
how do you not die if they send their mothership core to your base?
i kill probes, and make 3 marines at home. also can just put 2 scvs on autorepair. But the problem just doesn´t occur nobody in a sane state of mind will send out his MSC vs an early 2 rax reaper.
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United States4883 Posts
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable.
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On March 25 2014 11:55 SC2John wrote:
The way I deal with mass reapers is just going immortals + blink and go immortal/blink stalker allin ~10:00. Reapers cannot base trade or defend efficiently enough to win. Also, as has been pointed out, any air units at all in the Terran main end the game.
Mass reapers in TvP is cute but in no way viable.
Period!
i d like to point out though, that reapers + 20 scvs will probably deflect your all in. Just because scvs are pound per pound stronger then stalkers.
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On March 25 2014 08:27 playa wrote:
I hated playing against this. Now I just proxy oracles every game to avenge previous losses.
actually i do a variant of this build with an ebay in time for an optional turret that finishes ~5:15-20
i do 11/13 or 12/14 rax (11 gas or 12 gas respectively) and it works out really well for me. i can get a quick +1 and go for a cs push after expansion, followed up by a delayed medivac + stim timing while taking 3rd. or i can go for a +1 stim timing that doesn't give me the earlier poke but is a strong allin.
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EPT
